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Posted: 11/19/2004 4:29:55 AM EDT
[#1]
Zak, I was looking through the US Optics accesories listings last night. They offer a clear glass eye piece cover, and part of the literature says "Warning, may reduce eye relief by 1". That would put the SN 4 in the 2.5" eye relief range. It may also suggest a way to reduce eye relief on other tube scopes, if the principle is universal. Might be worth looking into. Mark
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Posted: 11/19/2004 7:59:02 AM EDT
[#2]
My guess is that it just takes up up to 1" of length, so it wouldn't actually move the scope rearward at all. The literature suggests it has no optical properties.
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Posted: 11/22/2004 4:10:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Zak, per Wendell at US optics, the clear glass cover adds 1/4" to 1/2" to scope length, so yeah, at least half the reduction in eye relief is additional length. Regards, Mark
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Posted: 11/22/2004 5:37:20 PM EDT
[#4]
US Optics is still WAAAAYYYY too heavy for what you get.
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Posted: 11/22/2004 9:50:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Tagged for later reading
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Posted: 1/24/2005 5:31:39 PM EDT
[#6]
bump so it doesn't die
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Posted: 1/24/2005 8:54:25 PM EDT
[#7]
Here a comparison I put together--It is not "all inclusive". If anybody could tell me how to post it directly without hotlinking, that would be great.
Mid Range/Multipurpose Scope Comparison |
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Posted: 1/24/2005 8:58:52 PM EDT
[#8]
That didn't quite work.
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Posted: 1/24/2005 9:03:31 PM EDT
[#9]
LOL......no kidding Zak. Thought I brought Arfcom down for a fleeting moment
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Posted: 1/24/2005 10:20:27 PM EDT
[#10]
According to US Optics, the SN4 starts out at 14 oz. That's not bad at all when compared to the Short Dot, and other comparable optics. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 1/25/2005 1:03:30 AM EDT
[#11]
Zak,
What about the Horus Talon 1-4x 24  and the H48 reticle ?  Is it too complicated for practical use ? |
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Posted: 1/25/2005 5:42:25 AM EDT
[#12]
Really? THis is not what US Optics told me... The SN-4 weighs approx 26oz. The Posi Slide weighs approx 6oz. The SN-4 body alone weighs 13oz. Even if we went titanium or carbon fiber body the weight saving would be a portion of 13 oz. Most of the weight is in the steel turrets and the glass. So with NO BODY the GLASS and Turrets are 13oz. Please tell me where do I buy the 1 oz scope body and weightless mount?  Honestly though Id like to know where your misinformation on the US Optics products came from. Mine is straight from US Optics and can be found in their online forum in a thread started by me. They also admit to an UNDER 12 hour battery life on the same forum when I asked. |
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Posted: 1/25/2005 7:45:17 AM EDT
[#13]
It needs more magnification, and the elevation knobs should be larger, more visible, with either a zero stop or some way to determine which revolution the knob is on. The Horus reticle is a neat concept. Some really good MOR ("manually operated rifle") shooters like them. I've shot some through one of the higher powered Horus' mounted on an AI (suppressed  ). I found that the "matrix" was a little hard to make out over some types of background objects, and I think it would be easy to get confused. It's not uncommon to see rifle shooters in bolt matches to turn their windage knobs the wrong way, or get off by 1 turn on the elevation, or dial the wrong elevation vs. how far the target is away. It's all stuff that can go wrong under pressure. But if you consistently train with the Horus, it'll probably work for you.
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Posted: 1/25/2005 8:42:38 AM EDT
[#14]
Good info and discussion here.
Zak, I realize you address the Leupold 1.5-5x scope ... wonder if you have a similar take on the 2005 Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x MR/T with illuminated SPR ranging reticle, $800, 30 mm tube, finger-adjustable knobs. www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1407&PN=1 www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/tactical_products.htm www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/reticles_SPR.htm www.leupold.com/corporate/press_releases/2005/MRT_NR.pdf (FYI, Leupold's current online information says it will be offered with illuminated mil-dot or duplex reticles. Chris Farris @ SWFA says it will be available with the illuminated SPR crosshairs.) Some related AR15.com threads: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=221050 www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=219737 Regards, mib2000 |
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Posted: 1/25/2005 8:50:23 AM EDT
[#15]
I'm not too keen on complex reticles. I also don't range with a reticle. It is too imprecise at long range where a 20 yard error can mean a miss (at least on the types of targets I'm shooting at), though I can see its use from maybe 300-500 yards.
I am excited about the M2 knobs, however. With a zero-stop and enough elevation in 1 turn, they are just the ticket. I think 0.1mil - 1/2 MOA clicks are just about perfect. -z |
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Posted: 1/25/2005 9:38:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Zak and others - GREAT thread! Helpful too as I am looking for an optic that is of discussion.
Couple thoughts on my part: I have an ST10 and an SN3 - both with 1/2 MOA E and 1/4 MOA W - hands down, best way to do this. Loopy are you listening? USO's are pigs - no way around this. However (true or not) I am of the opinion that I can throw it down the stairs and then go shoot a box drill with no issues. The SN3 is physically way too big as well. Nightforce - making their zero stops LEO only - WTF are they thinking? (For those that are intersted - there is a way to create a zero stop for ANY optic that doesn't have one - but it is a rube goldberg approach that should not have to be used when a manufacturer already produces the product with one.) Oh and 50mm - no thank you. FFP scopes that are lit - can be *more* advantagious at close range if the brightness is cranked and the power is minimized - creates a smaller brighter "dot" in the center of the ret. Loopy's 3-9x36 (IMHO) is not as good as their 3.5-10x40 - why? The savings in weight and size doesn't make up for the lack of adj paralax ...... and their new FFP - same with Premiere's conversions - you loose the lit feature..... Need at least 10x for precision work at 400+ USO has a new sleeker 1.8-10 X that is of interest - but again eye relief and weight.... Right or wrong it sure does make LaRue Tac mounts pretty nice - it is almost better to have a reasonable size / weight LR optic AND a ACOG on your person...... As others have said - it is about trade offs..... TAGGED for future gleaning of info.... |
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Posted: 1/25/2005 10:08:31 AM EDT
[#17]
Thanks Zak, It seems you do not recommend using the matrix for wind or distance hold off. Otherwise, why do you need to even turn the knobs and not just use the grids ? |
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Posted: 1/25/2005 10:29:57 AM EDT
[#18]
As an update, I'm using a simple Leupold 3.5-10x40mm M1 on my AR10 for now, in the LT mount. +1 on the super-bright FFP reticles. |
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Posted: 1/25/2005 10:33:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Well, you sure can use the matrix for both holdoffs (as long as it extends "down" enough for the range you want to shoot!). I just don't prefer it because of the reasons I mentioned. Also, a matrix with 0.5 or 1 MOA hash marks will be WAY too dense, but if all if you have is like 2 MOA line spacing 9or worse), then you are limited in the precision of hold over at 500+ yards. The difference between two elevation lines will be 10" @ 500 yards, which is a lot. I don't know what line spacing the Horus has. |
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Posted: 1/28/2005 5:25:40 AM EDT
[#20]
bump
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Posted: 1/28/2005 10:31:31 AM EDT
[#21]
And a tag, gotta read the whole thing later............Udog |
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Posted: 1/28/2005 5:42:40 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 1/29/2005 9:03:55 AM EDT
[#23]
 Excellent thread Zak, Im looking for something along these lines for my M1A, I really need to get my buddy at Premiere Reticles to register on ARFCOM for threads like these, BTW Zak, I can supply you with his contact info at Premiere if you wish....Udog
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Posted: 2/1/2005 8:53:05 AM EDT
[#24]
Great thread Zak.
Does anyone know if Leupold has plans to offer the M2 knob on anything other than the new Mark 4 1.5-5x MR/T? The M2 on a 3-10X40 with an illuminated ffp reticle would be a step in the right direction. Nick- |
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Posted: 2/1/2005 1:15:31 PM EDT
[#25]
As I skimmed this I see alot of leupold and nightforce, all of which fall short in one criteria or another. I mentioned IOR 2.5-10x42 ill. with MP8 retical back in sept. and still stand by it for the optimum all around optic. Which I think is on the same level with the MR/T but the MR/T has 1min M3 knobs (to coarse) or 1/4 M1 knobs (to fine and can lose track of turns).
This optic has sealed knobs that have 1/2min clicks as well as the retical has 1/2min graduation small line and 1min on the large lines. The weight is one of the lowest at 17oz. Eye Relief is still a bit long at 3.5in but that is that standard for a long range optic. The tube is 30mm and the bell is 42mm. I like the smaller 40mm range bells, save wieght and size. And you can get the scope for around $650.00, now I know that is much cheeper than a Mark 4. The big selling point for me is that there is 88min adjustment range, for those realy long .308 shots.   Matt Carper |
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Posted: 2/1/2005 3:53:23 PM EDT
[#26]
http://www.usoptics.com/sub_pages/scope_model.php?recordID=4 That's where I got the misinformation. The US Optics webpage for the SN4. "WEIGHT: 13.75oz." Battery life seems to be an issue with ALL of these types of optics. What's the Short Dot's battery life? -Cap'n |
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Posted: 2/1/2005 4:48:59 PM EDT
[#27]
No shit. Maybe Aimpoint should develope a variable 1-4x optic with illuminated reticle. |
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Posted: 2/1/2005 5:29:47 PM EDT
[#28]
If they would use a decent reticle and make it less than 16 oz, I'd be all for it. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 2/1/2005 9:17:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Zak, I'm in the same boat as you, and still looking.....
A possible answer may be in IOR's new compact 2-12x Tactical About the same size as Loopies 3-9x36mm MR/T it looks like it might be close to what you are looking for. Waiting on one right now, so really can't comment on it. But I will let you know! |
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Posted: 2/2/2005 8:51:21 AM EDT
[#30]
I'd be all over that!!! |
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Posted: 2/2/2005 8:53:52 AM EDT
[#31]
Please update on that IOR scope when you get the chance. I love IOR scopes hoping to get the cash together for a 1.1-4x26 sometime this year as well as a 2.5-10x42, but that 2-12 sounds very interesting for a planned 6.8 upper for deer hunting actually it sounds about perfect. |
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Posted: 2/2/2005 9:46:40 AM EDT
[#32]
Matt - does the IOR have a zero stop? Is the glass greenish in tint? How many round do you have through it? Ever dumped / dropped it? Ever shot a box drill with it?
TIA |
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Posted: 2/2/2005 10:51:51 AM EDT
[#33]
I can't help but wonder what Premier Reticles could do with something like the 1-5x scope. Maybe bump it's magnification, front focal plane Gen 2 reticle, combined with M1 style knobs mounted in a Larue mount with 20MOA of angle built in.
I personally lean towards the 3.5-10x Leupolds with 40mm objective in the M1 variety. Now that I see that Leupold is offering it in a front focal plane model I favor it even more, range at multiple magnifications or be able to use the mils for wind holds or movers no matter what the magnification. They came out with that new tactical mil reticle or whatever the hell leupold is calling it so you've got a ton more options available in coming up with a variety of mil readings. Personally I think the Gen 2 mil-reticle by Premier is just about right, not too busy but gets the job done. |
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Posted: 2/2/2005 12:04:25 PM EDT
[#34]
woah... i'm suprised luppy's coming our a front focal plane model... awesome... |
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Posted: 2/2/2005 5:05:29 PM EDT
[#35]
Yeah, I was kinda surprised too. It popped up on their web page about a week before SHOT.
I think they are side focus 30mm tube models to boot, in both an M1 and M3 version. Only thing left to do is cure the parallax/focus problem. |
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Posted: 2/2/2005 5:51:20 PM EDT
[#36]
With all these concern about eye relief being too long, I was told by the gunsmith who build all those SPR's that when the Mk 12 Mod 1 was first out, the real shooters in Afgan simply put the front scope ring on the FF KAC front rail and the back ring on the upper receiver. I believe there is even a picture of it some where in SOF.
Things should even be better with MRP or MRF type design. Why is eye relief such a concern then? |
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Posted: 2/3/2005 12:21:21 AM EDT
[#37]
Thats a fixed 1X scope not a variable 1-4X and the battery life of the Short Dot is 100+ hours with auto shut off after 6 hours to preseve battery life. Spare battery is stored on the scope. What do you guys not like about the Short Dot reticle? I think it would be perfect if it were just filled in or not front focal plane. |
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Posted: 2/3/2005 12:23:27 AM EDT
[#38]
I have not understood this either with the Larue SPR mount out there. The only thing I can think of is a tiny bit of balance issue. |
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Posted: 2/3/2005 7:38:49 AM EDT
[#39]
You're right that the Larue (and before it, the Armalite) cantilevered scope mounts take care of the mounting issues. This is somewhat a balance issue-- on an otherwise well balanced and not too heavy 18" rifle, a 1.5 - 2lb scope + mount with its center out over the barrel nut is going to screw with balance quite a bit. This goes along with the weight & compactness issue-- a big Leupold 4.5-14x50mm mounted 2" forward (ocular past charging handle) turns your nice handy SPR-gery into a boat anchor. Heck, I took one off my AR10 that that reason.
Ideally, I'd like this to be about the size of a TA11, maybe a little bit bigger. -z |
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Posted: 2/4/2005 3:14:36 AM EDT
[#40]
i think the biggest down fall of the new leupolds... is the fact that it changes it's eye relief throughout its manifcation... i just think this is unacceptable... plus the eye relief is (if i remember right) is 3-4 depending on the power used...
i'll keep looking 
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Posted: 2/4/2005 4:36:58 AM EDT
[#41]
The 1-4x20 does the same thing the eye relief is (in): 4.3(1x) 3.8(4x) But thats not really a problem. Where i have mine mounted I have the same cheek weld at 1power as I do at 4 power. You just have tofind that sweet spot. I normaly run this set up with my stock one position out from fully closed. The only time you may have a problem is in prone. Than the eye relief at 4x is a tad off. So you either have to pull the stock out a position or two, or you just deal with it. I like to just deal with it. |
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Posted: 2/4/2005 6:07:26 AM EDT
[#42]
For weight and eye relief concerns, Leupold offer a 2x7 rimfire compact. Decient glass, Fine duplex, Light and short eye relief. This could be modified to provide parallax adjusted farther out. If a power ring for this model could offer leverege, like say the VX-III's, This would be something interesting to me as a car/light rifle sight.
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Posted: 2/4/2005 6:52:38 AM EDT
[#43]
tag
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Posted: 2/4/2005 7:59:32 AM EDT
[#44]
The "light rifle" sight is in a different class from the topic of this thread. IMO, a TA11 is a much better choice than a compact Leupold for that application. |
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Posted: 2/4/2005 1:23:34 PM EDT
[#45]
I know of no variable power scope that does not change eye relief with a change in magnification. If I am not mistaken it is inherant to all viable optics and cant be the same eye relief. Even if it could it would require MORE glass and moving parts resulting in more weight , cost and complexity. |
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Posted: 2/4/2005 1:37:02 PM EDT
[#46]
I know of no variable power scope that does not change eye relief with a change in magnification. If I am not mistaken it is inherant to all viable optics and cant be the same eye relief. Even if it could it would require MORE glass and moving parts resulting in more weight , cost and complexity. |
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Posted: 2/4/2005 9:15:14 PM EDT
[#47]
I stopped by Impact Guns today. They had in an IOR 2x12. I think it is longer than the Leopold. It is really heavy!!! It uses a 35mm tube; IOR has their own proprietary rings. The illumination was too bright on the highest setting but this was indoors. For me the eye relief could not have been more than 2”. For me the biggest draw backs would be that I could not use a LaRue mount and the weight of the thing.
The sales rep did not know that much about it. If i remember correctly they wanted $859 for it. |
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Posted: 2/5/2005 8:15:32 PM EDT
[#48]
t
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Posted: 2/6/2005 12:53:56 AM EDT
[#49]
DevL, if that's the case, I've scratched the SN4 off the "short list". I wish they'd post an accurate weight on their sight though... I was pretty damn close to buying one, now that the new slimmer models are out.
If this new NXS doesn't turn out to be the solution, then I'm probably going to get a VX-3 1-4 illuminated circle dot or an Accupoint 1.25-4... The Short Dot is sweet, but it's still too porky for my needs. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 2/6/2005 4:35:54 AM EDT
[#50]
I'm doing some research for work and for the school weapon in regards to putting optics on M-4's and A3 16" ARs. The two M-4's are used on the "entry" team. Some of the guys are wanting to put optics on the weapons. However, if optics are put on a weapon the Iron Sight Course and the Sniper Course must be shot. First, to give you a little information on the course of fire:
IRON SIGHT COURSE- Shots take place at 40, 50, 75, and 100 yards. SNIPER COURSE- Shots take place at 100 yards. The targets that are used are 100 yard full face, 200 yard simulation, 2" bullseye. $ is an issue. One has already purchased his own (Eotech) but has not qualified with the optic (waiting for approval perhaps). Another has put on a LMT BUIS. Some have mentioned Aimpoints, Eotech, Leupold CQ/T, ACOG, AND I.O.R. Any information will be greatly appreciated. I understand this is not the right forum for the next statement but what the heck. LaRue rails 7.0 are being looked at as well as Tango Down VG. Weapon lights have not been research fully and lasers have been brought up. So, feed me with your knowledge! |
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