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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:05:04 PM EDT
As I continue to work my way through the bible, go to church much more and read and watch things relating, I sometimes develop questions on ancient biblical things.

One is, so at one point Jesus gave powers to his Disciples and sent them out to to spread the word and heal many.

Why are there not or can there not be (struggling for words here) agents of God (for lack of better) that continue to not only spread the word and teachings, but heal and preform miracles as we have read about as well.  This world could surely use such men today.

Think of how great it would be to see another Son of Man, of God to roam the earth, teach and heal!!!!  

Anyone ever thought about this or wondered about it?

Link Posted: 5/1/2024 11:47:12 PM EDT
[#1]
I have definitely thought about this. It certainly would be something.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 11:54:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tech-Com] [#2]
Paul said that when maturity comes spiritual gifts will cease and only faith, hope, and love would remain.
He compares it to acting and speaking like a child but now that he is a man he has put away childish
things. One of the major points of  1 Corinthians 13, is to draw your focus away from those fleeting gifts and towards those things that would remain until the return of Christ, that being faith, hope, and love. Love would continue even after his return.
Link Posted: 5/2/2024 12:42:08 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Paul said that when maturity comes spiritual gifts will cease and only faith, hope, and love would remain.
He compares it to acting and speaking like a child but now that he is a man he has put away childish
things. One of the major points of  1 Corinthians 13, is to draw your focus away from those fleeting gifts and towards those things that would remain until the return of Christ, that being faith, hope, and love. Love would continue even after his return.
View Quote


“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

I guess Jesus was wrong then.
Link Posted: 5/2/2024 1:32:05 AM EDT
[#4]
Originally Posted By smullen:
As I continue to work my way through the bible, go to church much more and read and watch things relating, I sometimes develop questions on ancient biblical things.

One is, so at one point Jesus gave powers to his Disciples and sent them out to to spread the word and heal many.

Why are there not or can there not be (struggling for words here) agents of God (for lack of better) that continue to not only spread the word and teachings, but heal and preform miracles as we have read about as well.  This world could surely use such men today.

Think of how great it would be to see another Son of Man, of God to roam the earth, teach and heal!!!!  

Anyone ever thought about this or wondered about it?
View Quote
Those gifts were given to kick start things and ceased during the apostle's lifetime.

Which is not the same thing as saying God can't or doesn't do miracles anymore.

If you read in the text you will find that many people saw miracles repeatedly and it didn't do them an ounce of good and did not cause them to believe.

If you want to dig into this stuff:
Salvation, Healing, Miracles, and the Sovereignty of God: An Interview with Pastor John Samson
Link Posted: 5/2/2024 1:47:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Tech-Com] [#5]
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Originally Posted By monadh:


"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

I guess Jesus was wrong then.
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Originally Posted By monadh:
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Paul said that when maturity comes spiritual gifts will cease and only faith, hope, and love would remain.
He compares it to acting and speaking like a child but now that he is a man he has put away childish
things. One of the major points of  1 Corinthians 13, is to draw your focus away from those fleeting gifts and towards those things that would remain until the return of Christ, that being faith, hope, and love. Love would continue even after his return.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

I guess Jesus was wrong then.
So what was Paul teaching? Indeed Christ's audience could likely do such things, but we aren't the first fruits of the harvest / those workers of the vineyard who received their reward before the crop, nor the first to believe in Christ, nor the elect he gathered in one generation, nor the dead in Christ who gave testimony to kick Satan out of Heaven. When Christ spoke He wasn't always speaking to everyone of all generations.
Link Posted: 5/2/2024 4:17:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: monadh] [#6]
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Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
So what was Paul teaching? Indeed Christ's audience could likely do such things, but we aren't the first fruits of the harvest / those workers of the vineyard who received their reward before the crop, nor the first to believe in Christ, nor the elect he gathered in one generation, nor the dead in Christ who gave testimony to kick Satan out of Heaven. When Christ spoke He wasn't always speaking to everyone of all generations.
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Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Originally Posted By monadh:
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Paul said that when maturity comes spiritual gifts will cease and only faith, hope, and love would remain.
He compares it to acting and speaking like a child but now that he is a man he has put away childish
things. One of the major points of  1 Corinthians 13, is to draw your focus away from those fleeting gifts and towards those things that would remain until the return of Christ, that being faith, hope, and love. Love would continue even after his return.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

I guess Jesus was wrong then.
So what was Paul teaching? Indeed Christ's audience could likely do such things, but we aren't the first fruits of the harvest / those workers of the vineyard who received their reward before the crop, nor the first to believe in Christ, nor the elect he gathered in one generation, nor the dead in Christ who gave testimony to kick Satan out of Heaven. When Christ spoke He wasn't always speaking to everyone of all generations.


Good luck divining when Jesus was speaking to His disciples and when He was speaking to you.

One of the hallmarks of reformed theology (and other newer variants) is the list of explanations as to why healings and miracles do not happen now. Frankly, it is much easier to believe the sweet by-and-by than it is to be hard pushed and ask God for something visible and tangible in the now.

Even when it was an apostle who laid hands on the sick, just who do you think was doing the healing? The question is not really about are there people now who can heal the sick. The true question is, does God still perform miracles?

I am here for all of the reasons why He doesn’t.
Link Posted: 5/2/2024 7:47:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tech-Com] [#7]
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Originally Posted By monadh:


Good luck divining when Jesus was speaking to His disciples and when He was speaking to you.

One of the hallmarks of reformed theology (and other newer variants) is the list of explanations as to why healings and miracles do not happen now. Frankly, it is much easier to believe the sweet by-and-by than it is to be hard pushed and ask God for something visible and tangible in the now.

Even when it was an apostle who laid hands on the sick, just who do you think was doing the healing? The question is not really about are there people now who can heal the sick. The true question is, does God still perform miracles?

I am here for all of the reasons why He doesn't.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By monadh:
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Originally Posted By monadh:
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Paul said that when maturity comes spiritual gifts will cease and only faith, hope, and love would remain.
He compares it to acting and speaking like a child but now that he is a man he has put away childish
things. One of the major points of  1 Corinthians 13, is to draw your focus away from those fleeting gifts and towards those things that would remain until the return of Christ, that being faith, hope, and love. Love would continue even after his return.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

I guess Jesus was wrong then.
So what was Paul teaching? Indeed Christ's audience could likely do such things, but we aren't the first fruits of the harvest / those workers of the vineyard who received their reward before the crop, nor the first to believe in Christ, nor the elect he gathered in one generation, nor the dead in Christ who gave testimony to kick Satan out of Heaven. When Christ spoke He wasn't always speaking to everyone of all generations.


Good luck divining when Jesus was speaking to His disciples and when He was speaking to you.

One of the hallmarks of reformed theology (and other newer variants) is the list of explanations as to why healings and miracles do not happen now. Frankly, it is much easier to believe the sweet by-and-by than it is to be hard pushed and ask God for something visible and tangible in the now.

Even when it was an apostle who laid hands on the sick, just who do you think was doing the healing? The question is not really about are there people now who can heal the sick. The true question is, does God still perform miracles?

I am here for all of the reasons why He doesn't.
Can you say what you believe? Your answers seem ambiguous as if your are trying to contrast what I have said, but without any real distinction?

I believe in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul is teaching to the church that the spiritual gifts they have been witnessing will cease as they mature, and that the three things to remain are faith, hope, and love. It is his intention for us to focus on these things rather than seeking the spiritual gifts that are fading away. I think it can be clearly understood that these gifts will cease for some unknown length of time before the return of Christ. We know because faith and hope are dependent upon the wait for his promised coming. Therefore the maturity is reached sometime before the return of Christ and thus these gifts cease before his return. When this occurred, occurs, or for how long this cessation lasts before the return of Christ is up for debate, but regardless the lesson is they aren't the evidence of the mature, but rather the infancy, they aren't to be the focus of a church trying to grow/mature. Love should be the greatest focus!

Link Posted: 5/3/2024 12:30:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: monadh] [#8]
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Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Can you say what you believe? Your answers seem ambiguous as if your are trying to contrast what I have said, but without any real distinction?

I believe in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul is teaching to the church that the spiritual gifts they have been witnessing will cease as they mature, and that the three things to remain are faith, hope, and love. It is his intention for us to focus on these things rather than seeking the spiritual gifts that are fading away. I think it can be clearly understood that these gifts will cease for some unknown length of time before the return of Christ. We know because faith and hope are dependent upon the wait for his promised coming. Therefore the maturity is reached sometime before the return of Christ and thus these gifts cease before his return. When this occurred, occurs, or for how long this cessation lasts before the return of Christ is up for debate, but regardless the lesson is they aren't the evidence of the mature, but rather the infancy, they aren't to be the focus of a church trying to grow/mature. Love should be the greatest focus!
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Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Originally Posted By monadh:
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Originally Posted By monadh:
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Paul said that when maturity comes spiritual gifts will cease and only faith, hope, and love would remain.
He compares it to acting and speaking like a child but now that he is a man he has put away childish
things. One of the major points of  1 Corinthians 13, is to draw your focus away from those fleeting gifts and towards those things that would remain until the return of Christ, that being faith, hope, and love. Love would continue even after his return.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

I guess Jesus was wrong then.
So what was Paul teaching? Indeed Christ's audience could likely do such things, but we aren't the first fruits of the harvest / those workers of the vineyard who received their reward before the crop, nor the first to believe in Christ, nor the elect he gathered in one generation, nor the dead in Christ who gave testimony to kick Satan out of Heaven. When Christ spoke He wasn't always speaking to everyone of all generations.


Good luck divining when Jesus was speaking to His disciples and when He was speaking to you.

One of the hallmarks of reformed theology (and other newer variants) is the list of explanations as to why healings and miracles do not happen now. Frankly, it is much easier to believe the sweet by-and-by than it is to be hard pushed and ask God for something visible and tangible in the now.

Even when it was an apostle who laid hands on the sick, just who do you think was doing the healing? The question is not really about are there people now who can heal the sick. The true question is, does God still perform miracles?

I am here for all of the reasons why He doesn't.
Can you say what you believe? Your answers seem ambiguous as if your are trying to contrast what I have said, but without any real distinction?

I believe in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul is teaching to the church that the spiritual gifts they have been witnessing will cease as they mature, and that the three things to remain are faith, hope, and love. It is his intention for us to focus on these things rather than seeking the spiritual gifts that are fading away. I think it can be clearly understood that these gifts will cease for some unknown length of time before the return of Christ. We know because faith and hope are dependent upon the wait for his promised coming. Therefore the maturity is reached sometime before the return of Christ and thus these gifts cease before his return. When this occurred, occurs, or for how long this cessation lasts before the return of Christ is up for debate, but regardless the lesson is they aren't the evidence of the mature, but rather the infancy, they aren't to be the focus of a church trying to grow/mature. Love should be the greatest focus!


I don't feel it necessary to state what I believe because I have no interest in trying to prove what I believe is more correct than what you believe. That said, what I do is ask questions of your beliefs because you have been very free in stating them on a pretty wide range of topics. What I generally do is ask a question in this manner: "In light of what Jesus explicitly said here, how do you line up what you said there with what He said here?" Your response was to use 1 Corinthians 13 as a defense, and in doing so, you have sidestepped the basic question (does God still perform miracles?), and introduced the possibility that the church is so mature now, "gifts" are no longer needed.

That's actually an old but interesting argument against the possibility of God performing miracles, and to believe that the church today has a greater maturity than the Church of early Christianity requires greater faith than does the belief in the possibility of God performing a miracle. The problem with that "faith" is that it is focused on the perfectability of man here and now and not on God. "Therefore the maturity is reached sometime before the return of Christ" is a clear statement of belief in the ever increasing and inevitable maturity (perfectability) of man here on earth, and that it will precede the return of Jesus. How does that belief line up with these words from Jesus Himself?:

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Does that sound as if man has approached "maturity" of the type that will bring about the return of Jesus? You really don't even need to interpret that or the rest of Matthew 24 to see that Jesus thought otherwise:

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

As I understand it, the basic question of this thread is, "Why do we not see miracles being performed by God today?" Your answer is, "We have outgrown them." My answer (and as clear a statement of belief in the topic as I care to give) is, "We lack the faith to believe that God loves us enough that He will at times step in and do great things for us for His glory, and we try to excuse that lack of faith by folding / spindling / mutilating Scripture to justify our lack of faith".
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 1:05:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Tech-Com] [#9]
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Originally Posted By monadh:


I don't feel it necessary to state what I believe because I have no interest in trying to prove what I believe is more correct than what you believe. That said, what I do is ask questions of your beliefs because you have been very free in stating them on a pretty wide range of topics. What I generally do is ask a question in this manner: "In light of what Jesus explicitly said here, how do you line up what you said there with what He said here?" Your response was to use 1 Corinthians 13 as a defense, and in doing so, you have sidestepped the basic question (does God still perform miracles?), and introduced the possibility that the church is so mature now, "gifts" are no longer needed.

That's actually an old but interesting argument against the possibility of God performing miracles, and to believe that the church today has a greater maturity than the Church of early Christianity requires greater faith than does the belief in the possibility of God performing a miracle. The problem with that "faith" is that it is focused on the perfectability of man here and now and not on God. "Therefore the maturity is reached sometime before the return of Christ" is a clear statement of belief in the ever increasing and inevitable maturity (perfectability) of man here on earth, and that it will precede the return of Jesus. How does that belief line up with these words from Jesus Himself?:

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Does that sound as if man has approached "maturity" of the type that will bring about the return of Jesus? You really don't even need to interpret that or the rest of Matthew 24 to see that Jesus thought otherwise:

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

As I understand it, the basic question of this thread is, "Why do we not see miracles being performed by God today?" Your answer is, "We have outgrown them." My answer (and as clear a statement of belief in the topic as I care to give) is, "We lack the faith to believe that God loves us enough that He will at times step in and do great things for us for His glory, and we try to excuse that lack of faith by folding / spindling / mutilating Scripture to justify our lack of faith".
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I thought the poster was asking why we don't see agents of God walking around performing miracles such as those that were recorded in the Bible. I never stated that God didn't still perform miracles through the power of prayer. I certainly believe in this power! I'm speaking of gifted agents of God that the original poster was asking about. We've outgrown spiritually gifted individuals. Even in the time of Paul he was teaching to no longer edify individuals or to develop any preference between those that bring the word of God, hence why he seems to have avoided baptizing people .etc

I also believe Jesus gathered his elect (first fruits) within 1-generation just as he stated he would! So your statements of "days being cut short" happened 2000 years ago, and thus allowed for this period where the gospel can be proclaimed to the world before the final harvest (End). If you don't believe the 7th Trumpet was blown and his Kingdom arrived, then the only conclusion is that we are still waiting on salvation and Satan is still in Heaven and the dead are still asleep. Yet Jesus told people that they would not taste death before seeing his kingdom, and He told them it would come within 1-generation. He told the High Priest that he personally would see Jesus return. He indicated to John that he might remain alive until his return. Thus, those elect were taken up as witnesses and together with the blood kicked Satan out of Heaven! and thus

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)

"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down he who accuses them day and night before our God. They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death. (Revelation 12:10)

Even though He said the Temple would be destroyed at the same time as these other events, and it was destroyed, how can those who still doubt prove the Kingdom has come or that the dead in Christ were taken? Well, since those writings of stone and ink are now mature/fulfilled and now the ministry is written upon individual hearts they can't! We must have faith that He did what He said that He would do! For He says

"The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

Link Posted: 5/3/2024 3:44:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Does God still heal?...are we seriously asking this question?  In the church that I attend there have been numerous healings, usually by the laying on of hands by the church elders.  I have come across multiple media articles where people have claimed to be healed by God but I was not there to verify their claim.  All I can claim is what happened in my life.

This is an admission that I am embarrassed about but it is the truth so I will declare it.  I was a raging alcoholic for about 16 years.  It was not uncommon for me to have blackouts two or three times a week.  I lost my family, a job, had several car crashes and was arrested twice.  I kind of wanted to quit; I believed in God and knew that if there was anyway out of this mess that my life had become it would be through him.  However, I did not attend a church, I did not read the bible, and I did not pray but rarely.  I did try and pray to him on multiple occasions but I never really felt as though I had received an answer...maybe my heart was not in it.  I remember driving down a roadway thinking that my life was over and that this is the way that I was going to die...it was just hopeless despair, and then I lost another relationship because I just could not put down the bottle.  

In the pit of this despair, late at night, I got down on my knees and asked God to heal me.  I told him that I have messed up my life and recounted all the ways that my best efforts had led me to destruction.  I asked him to forgive me and I turned my will and my life over to him because he was my only hope.  He is the only hope of this world.  Immediately I felt an overwhelming sense of peace and I knew I was done.  I didn't see him but could feel his presence and love and I thanked him for healing me.  This all occurred in 1984 and I still do not drink to this day.  All praise goes to God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Now, I am still a sinful man and have to turn to him daily but he is always gracious and hears my voice...his mercy endures forever.  God healed me and he can heal you, Blessed be his Holy Name.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 4:53:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
I thought the poster was asking why we don't see agents of God walking around performing miracles such as those that were recorded in the Bible. I never stated that God didn't still perform miracles through the power of prayer. I certainly believe in this power! I'm speaking of gifted agents of God that the original poster was asking about. We've outgrown spiritually gifted individuals. Even in the time of Paul he was teaching to no longer edify individuals or to develop any preference between those that bring the word of God, hence why he seems to have avoided baptizing people .etc

I also believe Jesus gathered his elect (first fruits) within 1-generation just as he stated he would! So your statements of "days being cut short" happened 2000 years ago, and thus allowed for this period where the gospel can be proclaimed to the world before the final harvest (End). If you don't believe the 7th Trumpet was blown and his Kingdom arrived, then the only conclusion is that we are still waiting on salvation and Satan is still in Heaven and the dead are still asleep. Yet Jesus told people that they would not taste death before seeing his kingdom, and He told them it would come within 1-generation. He told the High Priest that he personally would see Jesus return. He indicated to John that he might remain alive until his return. Thus, those elect were taken up as witnesses and together with the blood kicked Satan out of Heaven! and thus

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)

"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down he who accuses them day and night before our God. They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death. (Revelation 12:10)

Even though He said the Temple would be destroyed at the same time as these other events, and it was destroyed, how can those who still doubt prove the Kingdom has come or that the dead in Christ were taken? Well, since those writings of stone and ink are now mature/fulfilled and now the ministry is written upon individual hearts they can't! We must have faith that He did what He said that He would do! For He says

"The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

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Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
Originally Posted By monadh:


I don't feel it necessary to state what I believe because I have no interest in trying to prove what I believe is more correct than what you believe. That said, what I do is ask questions of your beliefs because you have been very free in stating them on a pretty wide range of topics. What I generally do is ask a question in this manner: "In light of what Jesus explicitly said here, how do you line up what you said there with what He said here?" Your response was to use 1 Corinthians 13 as a defense, and in doing so, you have sidestepped the basic question (does God still perform miracles?), and introduced the possibility that the church is so mature now, "gifts" are no longer needed.

That's actually an old but interesting argument against the possibility of God performing miracles, and to believe that the church today has a greater maturity than the Church of early Christianity requires greater faith than does the belief in the possibility of God performing a miracle. The problem with that "faith" is that it is focused on the perfectability of man here and now and not on God. "Therefore the maturity is reached sometime before the return of Christ" is a clear statement of belief in the ever increasing and inevitable maturity (perfectability) of man here on earth, and that it will precede the return of Jesus. How does that belief line up with these words from Jesus Himself?:

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Does that sound as if man has approached "maturity" of the type that will bring about the return of Jesus? You really don't even need to interpret that or the rest of Matthew 24 to see that Jesus thought otherwise:

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

As I understand it, the basic question of this thread is, "Why do we not see miracles being performed by God today?" Your answer is, "We have outgrown them." My answer (and as clear a statement of belief in the topic as I care to give) is, "We lack the faith to believe that God loves us enough that He will at times step in and do great things for us for His glory, and we try to excuse that lack of faith by folding / spindling / mutilating Scripture to justify our lack of faith".
I thought the poster was asking why we don't see agents of God walking around performing miracles such as those that were recorded in the Bible. I never stated that God didn't still perform miracles through the power of prayer. I certainly believe in this power! I'm speaking of gifted agents of God that the original poster was asking about. We've outgrown spiritually gifted individuals. Even in the time of Paul he was teaching to no longer edify individuals or to develop any preference between those that bring the word of God, hence why he seems to have avoided baptizing people .etc

I also believe Jesus gathered his elect (first fruits) within 1-generation just as he stated he would! So your statements of "days being cut short" happened 2000 years ago, and thus allowed for this period where the gospel can be proclaimed to the world before the final harvest (End). If you don't believe the 7th Trumpet was blown and his Kingdom arrived, then the only conclusion is that we are still waiting on salvation and Satan is still in Heaven and the dead are still asleep. Yet Jesus told people that they would not taste death before seeing his kingdom, and He told them it would come within 1-generation. He told the High Priest that he personally would see Jesus return. He indicated to John that he might remain alive until his return. Thus, those elect were taken up as witnesses and together with the blood kicked Satan out of Heaven! and thus

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)

"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down he who accuses them day and night before our God. They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death. (Revelation 12:10)

Even though He said the Temple would be destroyed at the same time as these other events, and it was destroyed, how can those who still doubt prove the Kingdom has come or that the dead in Christ were taken? Well, since those writings of stone and ink are now mature/fulfilled and now the ministry is written upon individual hearts they can't! We must have faith that He did what He said that He would do! For He says

"The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in within you. (Luke 17:20-21)



Hard to argue with that
Link Posted: 5/6/2024 2:47:26 PM EDT
[#12]
2Corinthians 12:7-10

7And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
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Paul sees his "thorn in the flesh", whatever that may be, as given to him so he might not be exalted. Weakness is where strength made perfect lies.

Miracles happen through healing in our souls, made strong through weakness.

Link Posted: 5/6/2024 2:58:51 PM EDT
[#13]
The "gifts" were to help spread belief in GOD and his Messiah across the known world.  By the time the original Disciples had been persecuted and murdered Christianity was already in bloom and there was no longer a need for miracles to prove that Christ was GOD in human form.
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