The Photonis ECHO spec PVS14 used in the pics above data sheet for that unit shows:

Resolution center: 65
Signal to noise ratio:  31.09
EBI

0.05
HALO 0.89

As we are all aware, every tube in every device is slightly different. However you can check my EE listing for the Photonis ECHO spec PVS14's where I listed more numbers from actual units shipped to customers to see the numbers above are pretty standard for what's been shipping.

I'll try to get back over to the range with a Harris HP+ green unit here soon and get some pics in those same spots for comparison sake.

Interesting. So what’s your opinion on all this about screen cosmetics etc etc being worse? Is there special equipment needed to tune a tube like the programmable PSUs?

It’s easy to get caught up in minutia. I’m not, personally trying to do a wine tasting; I just want to see in the dark. I’ll put it this simply, every single individual who had the opportunity to look through the Photonis Echo WP Tubes has had the same reaction.

“Lulz. Wow.”

This is including USASOC ninjas, for whatever that’s worth to you.

If you’re doing astronomy, by all means, go with some L3s.

I have absolutely zero skin in this game, other than suffering from a bullshit meter that’s been pegged. I don’t give any shit. I don’t take any shit. I’m just not in the shit business.

I'd fall into that category, I'm going to be a new user soon. I've been trying to research the hell out of this stuff, because it is overwhelming and you want to make sure you're getting a quality item. After all, it's thousands of dollars. The more I read from Robert the more I'm leaning towards using his company because of his honesty about the products he sells. He's not bashing another product or company just giving his thoughts on what might or might not work for the end user.

I totally get where your coming from. And yes there is a lot of disinformation out there, hence my point in this whole thread and going to the real source to get real info.

As far as making recommendations, as far as we are concerned it IS a buying decision the consumer must make. I will say this, we don't carry certain models and makes of night vision (atn, etc.) for this very reason. Consider that some "big" online planet type places seem to offer any/every flavor of NV. We don't, we have narrowed it down to things we have used and have sold over the years. Further weeding out units that are no longer very mainstream- example I sold a BUNCH of PVS5's back in the 90's and early 2000's, I remember practically giving away PVS5's on Ebay for a while in early 2000's for less than $700. each. Do we list PVS5's any more? No, cause parts are getting harder to find for them and the units can only be found used now. So that narrows it down a little more.

I truly believe the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" comment I made before. It also involves the beholders wallet! Some on this forum like used units, some like to roll your own type deals, that's great, that's what they like. There is risks in each of those and one ham handed wrong turn may ruin an expensive piece of equipment- that's a risk also.

Some want the security of a long warranty and buying new, others just want to save a few bucks on finding a used tube. Each consumer has his own criteria for what they can spend, will spend and what they value in their purchase. So that makes a general "buy this" guide a little tough. And savvy consumers usually view "buying guides" as what they typically are- SALES AND MARKETING MATERIAL!

A consumer needs to be sure of his own purchase decision. If he is "pushed" into a buying decision by a vendor and then becomes unhappy with the purchase or his purchase doesn't keep up with the NV Joneses, he will likely feel like the vendor wronged him.

We all want the most performance we can get for the budget we have. For some that's $11,000. for a Mini B with top of the line WP tubes, for others it's a $2800. Photonis ECHO spec PVS14 or even maybe a used unit.

Hopefully that answers your question.

Do you offer a return policy within “x” time after receiving a device bought from you? I’m seriously considering buying an Echo unit to see for myself what it can do. If I know right away it’s not for me, then it’d be nice to know I can return it in exchange for something else. Not asking for money back. I’d have to assume others lurking may feel the same way.

Robert, Yup I've seen that and was very impressed with those numbers, I just wish I could look through one in person.

this

I can echo what Robert is saying about it being a personal decision.

after beating the internet to death for my first tube, I "knew" I wanted "good specs" and a clean tube.  For 2014 (approximately) I did get damn good specs and a clean L3 green thin filmed tube from TNVC.  I was happy. I took a class. I enjoyed learning how to shoot and move with a PVS-14.

One day afterward,  I was watching the EE y and someone was breaking up a matched set of TNV-PVS 14 with really good specs.  I don't remember, specifically, seeing "filmless" in the ad, but I bought one of them.  It has significanltly  better specs than my first tube, along with a couple of spots.  The spec sheet said "filmless".  It is a L3 green tube.  I quickly realized that it was MUCH more useful without illumination in low light situations- like night and day literally.  I took another class (same place) with the unfilmed tube and was VERY happy with my new purchase.

I also noticed that spots not right in the damn middle of zone 1 don't matter at all if you are actually moving around and doing things, versus taking pictures of your tube's image against a white wall.

The third tube i picked up again on the EE is a TNV ITT Pinnacle green.  Specs are somewhere in between the first two, but I noticed something is just different when compared to the L3 filmed and unfilmed tubes above.  I can't put my finger on it, but the imperfection of looking through something versus not looking through something presented by the ITT is just different when compared to either L3.  I suggest that some would probably like one versus the other.  It also has a comparably LOW EBI and HALO.

I believe Night Vision as a "hobby" is similar to anything else that I've participated in as depository of interest, time and money: You have to "do it" for a little while, to learn what you like.

In my opinion, Robert is attempting to try to get folks to understand this, rather than putting HIS personal taste in to the equation.

I certainly thought once the "L3 are #@#%s" talk started in earnest NSFJojo would show up, LOL. Where is that guy?

I believe he can't see this as he claims to be banned from the NV forum, but he is up and at'em this AM, currently posting in a PIT thread.
RIGHT HERE

That's the impression that I get - that he's restricted from the NV forum.

OK so first a little true history story-

Years ago, 2002'ish I had a guy in NC that had bought a lot of other gear from me ordered a PVS7. We were not using NVD as a supplier then, this was NOT one of their units. The guy that bought it like I said had bought a lot of other gear from us, one time I mentioned being in NC soon and he even asked me to come to his house to give him advice on a shelter (most would call "bunker" now) he was building. So I drove a few hours out of my way to go to this dude's place and helped him with some ideas on the design and use of the structure that he was missing (didn't charge him anything for this). He calls up and orders the PVS7 not long after. It ships to him direct from the (then) supplier. He calls me a week later and claims the unit isn't working. Now I should have been paying more attention to the fact that this dude had asked multiple times about "building his own" and asked about parts he had found on Ebay for doing it himself. But to be honest this was the first time I had ever seen an NV unit (supposedly) arrive DOA so I was very apologetic and like an idiot I took him at his word on that. Got him another unit out to him before the supplier got the first unit back. Sure enough, when the first unit arrived back it was blatantly obvious that this guy had taken the unit apart and had even pulled the new tube and replaced it with some shit broken tube he got off Ebay!!! I verified all this with the vendor including before and after pics. But keep in mind I was an idiot and had already sent him another unit.... So I got stuck not only with the first unit but also the repair bill, while the guy got a new unit and a free tube... That was about a $3,000. lesson for me that I have never forgotten.

So while all our units have long warranties and the ECHO spec PVS14s have a 10 year warranty just like our Harris ones do, to just flippantly take something back in return does require bench testing and checkout. And that can run a couple hundred dollars. Why is it necessary? Because some people like the guy in the real life example above are total POS. FWIW that has not happened since but seeing as I like to be completely upfront with people, if you do change your mind there are bench fees involved to check the unit out if it comes back. This has literally only happened one time and I cannot remember the last time in 10 years someone even asked about returning a PVS14 from us. Also, we have literally never seen a unit arrive "DOA" and along with the data sheet your unit will arrive with a checkout sheet where they are tested at the factory before shipping.

Good ban. Keep GD in GD. If you have useful information you can present without coming off like a retard post away. I like tech forums because you can get different views on products from a wide range of viewpoints.

Sorry I missed this before.

So once again I have been completely upfront that people will likely see a few blems in Zone 2 and 3 in an ECHO grade tube. I've stated that on this forum numerous times and it's in our item description for that unit also-


We don't hide our specifications or just leave things intentionally vague. You can also compare the MINIMUM numbers above to the actual numbers received in my EE listing for the Photonis ECHO spec PVS14's and see that all are getting better than the minimum.

It's all out there and not hidden in any way. I've also posted pics on this forum of a couple different units view through them.

Let me know if you have any more questions. We tend to UNDER sell as far as marketing goes,  but we have sold quite a few in the last year and I've not had anyone pissed about one yet. That to me says something....

LD3 you mean you're not into humblebragging?

Hmm.   Salty.

LMAO, nope. I don't claimed to have tested the atom bomb or invented the question mark

What's interesting is I can't remember a single customer or potential customer asking about the whole out of band capabilities deal until a person made their claims that the ECHO did not operate out of band. THEN and only then, did people start asking.

Similarly, no one asked about their performance in "low light" environments until a person made more claims that they didn't do well in "low light"  THEN and only then did consumers start asking about that.

Those questions that BEGAN after a person start making wild claims, are what began my asking questions AT THE SOURCE. Why? Because customers were asking me and I wanted to know FOR SURE.  And as the wild accusations kept up, people asked more and more- hence why I posted the answers from THE SOURCE as well as from noted NV EXPERTS like Ed Wilcox.

What's interesting to note is that we don't even mention the words "out of band capabilities" when we market these. To me personally it's of little consequence, but customers started asking after a person ran their mouth to the opposite and I had to find out for them.

We make our own beds, but if you make your's a mess, you really can't complain to anyone else about it being messy....
edited- spelling

I run dual echos and I love them!  They do exactly what I need them to do and that’s see at night.  If I need a little more I use an illuminator. I work in a city and autogating is super quick. I’m able to use my MAWL, Dbal and peq with no issues.  I chose the echos because it was in my budget and I wasn’t disappointed.  I compared them with a buddies L3s and frankly the only difference I saw was in extreme low light which I’m never in and if I was I have illuminators.  I’m gonna pick up a second set of duals for my poor friends who want to shoot hahaha and I’m gonna get another set of echos.

Granted I'm late to the conversation, but is the real argument that the Photonis stuff is better, cheaper, more durable or some combination of the three?  I tried googling "photonis echo" and got a hit on UNV for a price in line with my TNVC-14 filmless WP, so I'm guessing durability is what is really being touted?  If I read LD3s posts right, specs are similar in both platforms.

Sorry for any dumb questions, I'm just working backwards from the GD > Pit thread.

No problem bro!

My point in posting what I have was to answer a few general questions in regards to the Photonis ECHO spec tubes that have come up, and I posted info from the actual source, confirm by FOUR different people there as well as an independent NV guru- Ed Wilcox.

I'm assuming the price you saw (can't say what's on another party's website) if it was in line with an L3 unit, was likely a Photonis INTENS (now called simply "4G") tube.
The "4G" aka INTENS tubes are a higher grade tube than the ECHO spec tubes. Much like a Harris High Performance HP+ tube has much better specifications than say a "P" grade tube- cleaner, brighter, higher numbers on data sheet, etc.

I'm guessing the price that was "in line" with an L3 tube was for a 4G aka INTENS tube, not an ECHO spec.

It was never my intent to "compare" to L3 tubes but to simply disprove some bad info that was being thrown out there. If you notice it was several others that brought up emission point problems and various issues relating to L3 tubes. As I stated in the very first post, we sell units with L3 tubes also. Like I said I can never confirm or deny such claims but in my book L3/Eotech doesn't have a boatload of street cred after lying about specs with the holographic sights.

You would have to compare actual units to actual units. The numbers being a good place to start but not being everything as your well aware. Any specific numbers I've posted here or in my EE listing for these units are actual numbers from actual units customers are receiving or that I personally own. Pics I've posted are from personal units I own. Down under types can pull numbers from 2015 data if they like, but I've posted actual numbers from units that have shipped recently. But he was the same person that made the "they are nerfed" claim which has also categorically been put out to compost on the manure pile....

I would say of the things you mentioned PRICE would be the big factor in considering an ECHO tube. Durability would be the same as a 4G aka INTENS tube as mentioned above, but performance would be less than a 4G/INTENS tube.

Hopefully that answered your question?

@Lowdown3 Have you done any OOB testing with echo tubes? I would love to see some results. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore than I can take the Photonis sales reps word when I don’t know either one of them from Adam. I’m not trying to shit on anybody I’d just love to see some proof. I would be more than willing to build a OOB IR illuminator and donate it if somebody would be willing to do some honest testing and provide honest results.

Send it and I'll do it.

Common sense says one has a reason to down play a less expensive option when selling a more expensive option and the other only has liability involved with stating their product will do something if it in actuality won't...

To me *personally* the OOB characteristics mean little and I suspect to most users it means little. Only reason it was asked was the accusations made by that other party.

I think we have already dispelled the "they don't do well in low light" BS and the pics I've posted tend to prove that- more so than pics of sidewalks, suburbia and McMansions beaming with ambient light everywhere LOL!

Email me when you have a chance and we will discuss.

+1

This is my thoughts on it as well. I've never claimed they were the end all be all but I personally feel they are the best value in a White Phosphor tube.

I think I understand better.  I found the Photonis thread that Vic started and saw the Q&A, so I better understand some of the info and comments here.  If I'm getting it right, ITENS products should compete closely with L3 (filmed or filmless) in price and performance, and ECHO products should be considered slightly lower in capability and sold at a discount.

Part of my confusion was seeing ECHO products at a similar price as L3 O8 on the UNV site - I see on yours that they're available for about $1000 cheaper (rough estimate) and that would make more sense in the argument against L3 if they did have similar performance/durability.

DJ- Correct.

The 4G aka INTENS tubes are their top of the line and the ECHO grades tubes are the same build, same everything just with lower specifications and/or a few blems. But otherwise operate the same as 4G/INTENS.

Just like every tube is graded- the 4G/INTENS are better than the ECHO grade.

Notice I didn't even mention how anything compares to L3... That never has been the point of this thread

Maybe not by you, but nearly every other Photonis advocate has thrown L3 (and TNVC) under the bus as a company and in product comparison.

IMHO, they aren’t doing you or Photonis any favors.

Edited to add.

Yeah I know, but that's kind of the chicken or the egg thing? When that person spent all this time making crazy accusations about the ECHO tubes, that they "don't see OOB", "don't work in low light" etc. then his aussie shill came with the "they are nerfed" non sense, these crazy accusations had to be answered. TOO MANY PEOPLE WERE ASKING to not answer them!!!! In business we have a responsibility to ANSWER CUSTOMER'S QUESTIONS. That's the reality of the situation. So I asked and got answers from the source.

Did I ever diss Vic? Hell no, never even mentioned his name, which he took as more important than simply proving his crazy accusations. Has he attacked me personally- yeah more than a few times!!!

In essence, he caused and started this problem with the wild accusations. I see you asking all kinds of questions and having a thirst for knowledge- WHICH IS GOOD. Guess what, others do too! Are there answers not worth finding out for them? So let's go back to the start of the problem once again, that person you mentioned making outrageous claims. Those claims then engendered questions- A LOT OF QUESTIONS from a lot of different people. As a responsibility to my customers and potential customers, I asked those hard questions TO THE SOURCE. NO WHERE, I repeat NO WHERE did I personally make any personal attacks in this thread against him- although he's done worse to me on numerous occasions.

If others that he has harassed, sent threatening PMs,  and threatened to get them banned because they disagreed with him (or did have banned) come out of the woodworks and reference threads he has had sanitized, etc. THAT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. Neither have I encouraged that nor have I participated in that. I have simply covered the answers I was given. I have responded to some of his further accusations and attacks here and there- as gently and respectfully as possible. One of his guys even posted in this thread TWICE. Yet Vic freaked the hell  out on me for accidentally posting a positive comment (without marketing for myself) in a FLIR thread of his a couple years ago and we agreed they wouldn't post in threads I started and I wouldn't post in threads they started. I honored that request and THREE TIMES they didn't bother to honor their end of it. And that's been covered before publicly.

So my friend, I personally have given them a ton of respect, even when I have never received any in return. And this BS that I called him out personally to Photonis- what an egocentric pile of BS!!!  Seriously, does he really think everything revolves around him? How sad!

What I didn't post the other day, my reply to the Photonis folks- see any certain someone's name in there?

The points have been answered, the crazy accusations refuted from the source. In my mind it's over with and people should let it die. I cannot control what people post in this thread relating to them or L3 any more than he can control or has controlled what people have posted in his thread.

It's done. The wild accusations have been refuted and proof given. As far as I'm concerned it's over.

So someone just sent me this that he said-

And who's diss'ing who? Funny calling a company that's been in business 27 years a johnny come lately when he was "starting a part time business" selling NV in 2006 according to archives on this very forum.

So him playing the victim after he did the attack is utter BS and only a school child would fall for his victim mentality BS.

Like I said, I refuted his crazy claims as respectfully possible, not even mentioning his name early on. But with his ego, that wouldn't play out and just like the attacks he started, he was the first to make it personal. I have not taken it to that level.

Neither have I called you out or said "your favorite vendor" and ridiculous childish crap like that to you. What's ironic is most of the people he's attacking aren't my customers at all! But for damn sure never will be his the way's he attacking them!!! LOL  I have never sent any "unhinged PM's" to people that disagree with me or threatened to get people banned that disagree with me.

Like I said, I consider it done. If others who have felt harassed and bullied by someone speak up, I can't do a helluva lot about that nor is it fair to blame me for that. We all know where the blame lays. It's done.

Edited- we can all let this die now, the outrageous claims have been clearly refuted, questions have been answered. Thank you.

This thread has been very eye opening.

Well said man.  I have also still yet to take the "civilian" night vision plunge yet for these reasons and more.  I am also concerned about getting watered-down NODs and particularly the IR lasers.

I've been out for over 12 years now so surely what I used is old school now.  I do know that I'd never want anything to do with a -7D because my -14s went in for repairs once and I got a loner set of -7Ds that I had to live with for about 3 weeks and I hated them.

I never used any binoculars though and those have my interest now as well and this "WP" looks interesting too.  From the pictures it sure does look clear.

There are so many uncertainties though like you said every time I've got 5-10k burning a hole in my pocket it is a lot easier to just go with what I know and grab an SR-25 and an S&B or pickup a ton of ammo.  Does Harris have White Phosphor tubes as well?  It seems all the pissing matches are revolving around L3 vs Photonic (A company I never heard of until this recent drama) and I can understand why people would be skeptical of L3.  I still use Eotechs but those only cost about $500 so if one dies on me I'll just grab a spare and rock on.

Very. I’m currently in the market for a new or used 14. Thanks to this thread and the other I’ve been able to narrow down my new choices to JRH & N-Vision

Totally agree

This thread has been BEYOND entertaining and informative. Thank you for sharing the information you received from Photonis. I’ve been interested in a WP tube this might make me try one soon. Thanks for honest feedback. I will forever covet  my Gen 3 tubes though until they die , I die , or my retinas burn out.

Harris does have white phosphor. They’re filmed and basically the same thing as their HP+ and P graded green tubes but obviously with white phosphor.

For the cost, most people go with L3 because that’s the most popular WP Tube and costs are “fairly” close with not many at least seems not many using Harris WP.

It’s interesting for NVD hobbyists the Echo tubes. Cost-wise, with the specs being listed in the ranges they are, it prices WP closer to the average guy who’s previous choice was #1 an expensive HP+ Green Phosphor or #2 a really really really expensive L3 Unfilmed WP. Now you have #3 White Phosphor at close to the same price of #1.

This is a trend that has been going on for at least a few months here now, and it’s interesting to see just how much negative press a certain vendor here has been getting for quite some time.  It would probably be eye-opening if it were possible to quantify the lost sales due to the words and actions of said vendor and their cronies/shills.  I will say that my very recent thermal purchase was made elsewhere as a direct result of the distasteful behavior.

It seems as if we may be on the verge of a new dawn around these parts, or at least a new level of awareness.

I think a lot of the issues we have are because of the wide spread of different uses, and users, in NV, and the vendors that cater to the different markets, who often "cross-talk" over each other.  You might have one vendor who focuses on the mil or LE market, another on the hunting market, and a third who is more concerned with the civilian prepper or survivalist community.  (Then of course you have all the rest: the broad spectrum, mass-market vendors.)  I would submit that each of these categories, tactical, hunting, and prepping, have wants and needs of their own.  Without the end use being defined, either by the guy looking for answers, or the guy giving them, we oftentimes have threads with such a wide spread of answers, that you are overwhelmed with info with no way to analyze it and reach conclusions.

Case in point, when guys are looking for info about tubes.  You get all sorts of answers.  Sometimes you get pretty heated arguments.  Sometimes competing vendors get into it.  But if you take a look at what each vendor's "claim to fame" might be, it might make more sense to interpret what they're saying, and then figure out if that applies to you, or not.  For instance, a vendor may be focused on full time professionals, who have a high probability of "enemy" contact, and a need for state of the art equipment.  In this instance, they will focus on high-end equipment, with no apologies about it.  Sometimes they may get really passionate about it.  That is their point of view.  Now you have to decide, is this exactly what I want or need?

Another vendor may be focused on night hunters.  These guys also have a high probability of "game" contact, but oftentimes can get away with slightly less quality NV, since they can usually supplement with high-powered illum.  So you might see some high-end stuff here, but also less capable but "good enough" equipment here.  Again, is this for you, or not?

Then we have preppers or survivalists.  People who used to get mocked here pretty severely, but I would submit it's no so funny these days.  Anyways, these guys (presently) have a low probability of "enemy" contact, and therefor their level of NV quality varies considerably, depending on their estimate of the situation, and their budget.  But as we continue, the likelihood of hostile contact may increase, without much warning.  So you have to decide what level of capability you need, or might need.  This is a difficult area because while the actual need may be low now, the consequences of needing it and not having it later may be severe.  And it is but a small part of your overall preps, not your "main job" (or hobby) as it were.

Finally, you have the hobbyist, who has no actual mission statement, per se, other than to fuck around with NV, for whatever purpose.  This cat might be even more far-ranging, from the latest state-of-art, to cobbled together units that are painful to look at.  Since there is no mission statement, per se, here, get whatever turns your crank.  Post pics of your set up here and be the envy of the community, if that's what blows yer skirt up.

OK, so how does this all relate to the issue at hand.  Well, if the vendors, SME's, and others here all clearly state their POV's, and, the guy looking for info clearly states what his objective is (even if it's just to dabble), then you will not be caught in a cross-fire of folks talking about NV for different purposes.  As an example, let's say I'm a prepper, looking to supplement my night time patrolling capability with NV.  I have a certain budget, which means I might have to compromise between quality and affordability.  So instead of being bombarded by mil, LE, hunting, and hobby POV's, I zero in on what people who are into this category are saying.  Including vendors.

This is where the wheels can fall off (as illustrated) because you have different folks competing for your business in a small niche market.  Sometimes things are said that probably should be left alone.  Sometimes harsh words are exchanged.  Some view this as entertainment; every SHOT Show it seems we have this kind of drama.  I see it as blue-on-blue contact.  Others may view it as red-on-blue.  I like and respect both vendors in this dust-up.  I would hope that going forward, this kind of disagreement could be handled in a calmer, more dis-passionate manner.  Explain your POV, and the facts as you see them, leaving out the personal attacks, and let the reader decide for himself.

Great post.

I have a lot of respect for both parties here.  I have learned much from each of them.  But I have personally trained with LD3, in fact we have assaulted night objectives live fire, side by side, under NV.  He certainly knows of what he speaks, and has given freely of his knowledge here.  So I trust his judgement concerning tactical matters, to include T,T,P's for NV.  And I would certainly include him on a short list of SME's on this forum.  The fact that he is also a vendor complicates things somewhat.  Nothing wrong with, in fact, I'm glad he is, but now some that don't know him might question his motives for recommending the things he does.  But I know he is a man of honor and integrity and would not sell you a "fish", just to make a buck.  And I don't think he would engage in spreading any false claims to either hawk his wares, or undermine a competitor.

I have also been a customer of TNVC (I think that cat is out of the bag) for many years now.  They have always treated me fair and square and provided good quality kit and service.  And they have also given freely of their time and expertise to educate the public.  I don't know any of them personally, or had the opportunity to train with them, but trust that they are also men of honor and integrity.

So I am a little miffed here, as far as how acrimonious this little tiff became.  My best guess is that, egged on by a lot of different actors, things were said that crossed the line, and I think a lot was based on false information.  Did you ever get into a fight with someone and then later you realize the some chick told each of you that the other guy said he could kick your ass?  Perhaps we're seeing a little of that here.

Also I don't view the market as a zero-sum game.  Just because there are other vendors, doesn't mean every sale they make is one you lose.  I think there are different corners of the market, with different vendors that cater to them.  One person mentioned used car salesmen awhile back.  Ha, well yeah, it could be somewhat similar.  Some guys says I am looking at buying a car.  What do you guys recommend?  Beamer, Lexus, Toyota, Huyndai, Kia, Ford, Chevy, GMC.  Each viewpoint is valid, but just because a guy buys a Huyndai doesn't mean the Lexus dealer missed a sale.

Folks were asking for some comparison photos between the Photonis ECHO spec pics I posted last week and the Harris HP+ tubes.

Tried to get the pics in the same places of the same or similar items.





Excavator at the range-





That general pic down in the woods- Pine forest at the range.





Caveats-

I would say the conditions last night were from just above to a lot better than they were last week. The moon seemed almost 95% full last night. We were out at the range a couple hours shooting and it went from 70% 'ish overcast to almost completely clear near the end. So being fair, I would say the conditions were slightly better last night.

In the woods it was obviously a lot darker. The square range area is fairly open though, so it was crazy light there-



The unit taking the green pics is a BNVD Single gain (yes it actually articulates LOL) utilizing Harris High Performance HP+ tubes. This unit has SN of 27.3

Question- several have asked about HIGH light conditions. What are YOU considering HIGH light conditions? As a country dweller we only work in low light and even streetlights are uncommon where I live.

What conditions/situation can I find in "HIGH light" conditions that I can take some pics of in that for you all?

Inside your living room would work. Lights on. High power IR illuminators that fill the FOV.

very impressive pics Robert, any chance you have specs of the WP Echo tube used? Also can you do a side by side using the same tubes in a near dark environment to show the Echo's low light capabilities vs the ITT/Hsrris HP+. IMHO it'd answer a lot of question/doubt with the Photonis vs other questions.

Munny- The specs above are for the ECHO unit that was used in the pics. The HP+ has 64lp and 27 SN for comparison sake.

I can see a difference in clarity from the green HP+ to the WP tubes pictured. This is consistent with my testing results in Gen 3 vs Gen 2+, as well. The resolution on the green tube looks better, as the JCB logo on the excavator is substantially more crisp with better contrast. How does the price of that tube stack up against the WP tube pictured? You can see through both tubes that minimal detail is lost, and to some that might be a big deal, but to most users it is completely acceptable, as the tube will still get the job done at the end of the day.

For me, it always comes down to cost and performance per dollar. For most buyers, "good enough" gets the job done most of the time.

For years, I have always wanted to see a comparison of tubes with nearly identical spec sheets to see how they all stack up from manufacturer to manufacturer and model line to model line.

Also looking at the excavator pics, I evidently took the white one on a harder angle than the green one. And all other things being equal, it seemed to be a lot brighter out to me last night.

the 2 pictures were taken different nights? I thought you were just posting them at different times. It would be hard to use the comparison photos to determine anything other than clarity of the tube if they were taken in different levels of darkness.

Yeah plus tube pictures are a hard thing to judge as there's the camera and human element. (Not sure if you used cell phone or camera attachment), in the first place.

But based off of your pics, I personally would go with your Harris HP+ all day. Partially because that's what I'm used to. The clarity difference is definitely noticeable. Although I am sure that Photonis tube is much clearer in person than those pics show. (Because I know how cameras can effect NV pics)

Yes, I posted that.

So last week I posted the pics of the ECHO tubes. Right after people started asking for pics of the HP+ tube units to compare. Hence the notation about  the conditions and "I think it was slightly brighter tonight" type of deal.

It occurred to me last night when we got back home that we should have taken pics with both then, however my son was using the ECHO and was spending most of the time shooting. Far be it from me to cut down anyone's range time :)

I'll run over again one of these upcoming nights

And admittedly my photo taking skills suck!!

I used one of those little $15. Iphone adapters someone posted about here a few months ago. Got it off Amazon. I'll try to find a link if anyone is interested in one of those.

Please post the link. I want to do some experiments with illuminators. And the adaptor should help keep things at least consistent.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NV3WWLF/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1?keywords=Landove+Universal+Cell+Phone+Smartphone+Quick+Photography+Adapter+Mount+Connector+for+Telescope+Binoculars+Monocular+Spotting+Scope+Microscope+%26+and+with+Cell+Mobile+Phone&qid=1550514768&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull

Cellphone adapter