What is known about this new development?

6.8SPC / AR15 FAQ: web.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/6.8SPC/faq.php

The Marines are claiming they have no interest in the caliber - this is posted on Tactical Forums

Quoted: The Marines are claiming they have no interest in the caliber - this is posted on Tactical Forums

Just goes to show again, that what is said on forums about what the military is or isn't doing, is not to be relied upon asa gospell, cause someone didn't see it on CNN:) Gee the military just can't understand they are supposed to anounce what they are doing so (some) can discuss if it's a good or bad idea, and advise them:)
Jack

Quoted: Quoted: The Marines are claiming they have no interest in the caliber - this is posted on Tactical Forums Just goes to show again, that what is said on forums about what the military is or isn't doing, is not to be relied upon asa gospell, cause someone didn't see it on CNN:) Gee the military just can't understand they are supposed to anounce what they are doing so (some) can discuss if it's a good or bad idea, and advise them:) Jack

3rdtk, you might want to actually read the thread on Tacticalforums.  It was Pat Rogers himself that posted the Marines have no interest in 6.8mm at this time.  As I'm sure you know, if anybody knows the Marines level of interest. It would surely be Pat.

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=50;t=000503

I rest my case!;D]

Pat just today posted a correction thread that states the Marines are currently testing the 6.8mm round. He also doubts that it will go anywhere becuase of the logistic problems of adding a new caliber.

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=50;t=000506

There are many area's of each branch of the service, and quite frankly they do not normaly know all what some other unit , base is doing. A gun writter or someone that knows somone only knows a piece of a story, and that is how much mis-information and false rumors get started on forums. That is if any info is allowed out in the first place. The military is not an open forum, nor should it be for obvious reasons. They give out what they consider prudent.
Jack

Quoted: There are many area's of each branch of the service, and quite frankly they do not normaly know all what some other unit , base is doing. A gun writter or someone that knows somone only knows a piece of a story, and that is how much mis-information and false rumors get started on forums. That is if any info is allowed out in the first place. The military is not an open forum, nor should it be for obvious reasons. They give out what they consider prudent. Jack

Is this why I still can't find a picture of a SIR in U.S. miltary service?

Well, I wouldn't be surprised, but the (ret) spec ops guys that are under contract as (civilian contractors) sure are using an awfull lotfof SIR's show on (CNN), cause they have a choice, if that gives you a hint.
Jack

Quoted: Well, I wouldn't be surprised, but the (ret) spec ops guys that are under contract as (civilian contractors) sure are using an awfull lotfof SIR's show on (CNN), cause they have a choice, if that gives you a hint. Jack

LOL, some how I knew that answer was coming.

SEE, you do remember what you have seen (on TV), better than what some units in the military don't want you to see.
Jack

Quoted: Well, I wouldn't be surprised, but the (ret) spec ops guys that are under contract as (civilian contractors) sure are using an awfull lotfof SIR's show on (CNN), cause they have a choice, if that gives you a hint. Jack

Or that has something to do with the Blackwater/Bushmaster/ARMS co-op.

Ive yet to see one in any of the pics Wes has been posting of guns paid for by the individuals.  

Not flaming, just discussing

I have shot the 6.8SPC and the Barrett Rifles. I lie the caliber, I think it has excellent potential in a few roles. However, i see some serious hurdles to widespread commercial sucess.

1. Propriety magazines; So far PRI LEO/Govt mags are all that are available. There isnt even a 5 round hunting mag, or a 10 round post ban compliat mag available. PRI said at SHOT they would produce 5 & 10 Round makes. Alot of things get said at SHOT, but they never happen. Or take months or years to happen...

2. Ammo availability; SAAMI hasnt spec'd the round. Remington intends to sell the ammo commercially, but has been slow getting a resonably pefected product to market. Some of the T&E ammo was badly flawed.

3. Untested; The majority of testing was done with handloads that may have little in common with the factory ammo that Remingotn produces for the commercial market. see the difference inperformance between Early .357 Mag ammo and current .357 Mag.  Or for a more recent example. Look at the performance difference between Rem UMC 55Gn .223 Vs true M193 Spec 5.56mm.  The prototype testing has showed the 6.8's potential, however that potential may never be reached with off the shelf ammo. I hope I'm wrong and remington factory ammo matches both the accuracy and terminal ballistics of the best loads developed in the 6.8 testing.

4. Cost;  Colt or Bushmaster could have handled the commercial sales of rifles in 6.8SPC far better than Barrett has or will.


Additionally, it would not surprise me to see someone simply kneck up a 5.56mm case to 6.5mm or 6.8mm. this would offer a competing caliber, with simular ballistics, that would use the existing mags and bolt.

From what I'm told by guys who go there, Blackwater build the weapons to what a (contractor wants)., and rightfully so. Blackwater have enough money to get what ever they need, I'm told that they use various weapon makers, hardware, ammo, optics, etc. for the mission.
Anyone going into that type enviroment, is going to have a lot to say what he is going to carry, especially based on their in service professional experiences with all kinds of hardware as their guide. By the way, Blackwater sent out anouncments that they set up a fund for the families of the four contractors that were ambushed, and you all know the rest from TV.
Jack

Quoted: I have shot the 6.8SPC and the Barrett Rifles. I lie the caliber, I think it has excellent potential in a few roles. However, i see some serious hurdles to widespread commercial sucess. 1. Propriety magazines; So far PRI LEO/Govt mags are all that are available. There isnt even a 5 round hunting mag, or a 10 round post ban compliat mag available. PRI said at SHOT they would produce 5 & 10 Round makes. Alot of things get said at SHOT, but they never happen. Or take months or years to happen... 2. Ammo availability; SAAMI hasnt spec'd the round. Remington intends to sell the ammo commercially, but has been slow getting a resonably pefected product to market. Some of the T&E ammo was badly flawed. 3. Untested; The majority of testing was done with handloads that may have little in common with the factory ammo that Remingotn produces for the commercial market. see the difference inperformance between Early .357 Mag ammo and current .357 Mag.  Or for a more recent example. Look at the performance difference between Rem UMC 55Gn .223 Vs true M193 Spec 5.56mm.  The prototype testing has showed the 6.8's potential, however that potential may never be reached with off the shelf ammo. I hope I'm wrong and remington factory ammo matches both the accuracy and terminal ballistics of the best loads developed in the 6.8 testing. 4. Cost;  Colt or Bushmaster could have handled the commercial sales of rifles in 6.8SPC far better than Barrett has or will. Additionally, it would not surprise me to see someone simply kneck up a 5.56mm case to 6.5mm or 6.8mm. this would offer a competing caliber, with simular ballistics, that would use the existing mags and bolt.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I remember right, the pic's and discussions on here, obviously the thousands of rounds shot at the shot show by many gun writers, certainly were not
hand loaded.
As for the rest of the quote, well I can only say, nope.
Jack

Ooh ooh ooh! Pick me pick me!  I think I found one!



Back row, second from the right.  Looks like a #50 with an EoTech on the lower portion.

A thread asking about the Barret 6.8 rifle and its ammo should not be turning into a thread about how many SIRs we see in pictures from Iraq etc. If you want to know about that, start your own thread. Dont change the topic of someone elses.

Quoted: 1. DID THEY RUSH MICHAELANGELO WHEN HE WAS PAINTING THE CEILING OF THE CISTINE CHAPEL? NO. YOU CANNOT HURRY ART. NOR CAN YOU RUSH PRODUCTION OF AS CRUCIAL AN ITEM AS AN AUTOLOADING MAGAZINE. THEY'RE COMING. WORK IS IN PROGRESS AS YOU READ THIS. 2. THE 6.8 SPC ROUND IS SAAMI NOW. CHAMBER REAMERS ARE AVAILABLE. 3. HANDLOADS ... OTHER THAN THE LOADS WORKED UP BY MY COLLEAGUE, PAUL E., AND A VERY FEW OTHERS, I AM AWARE OF VERY LITTLE HANDLOADING EFFORT IN THIS CALIBER. THIS IS DUE TO THE SIMPLE FACT THAT CUSTOM DIES IN 6.8 SPC ARE NOT READILY AVAILABLE. BTW, THE HORNADY 110 GR VMAX IS A GREAT BULLET IN THIS CALIBER, AS OBVIOUSLY IS THE NEW HORNADY 115 GR OTM. Ditto!!!!!! 4. I AGREE THE CURRENT BARRETT OFFERING IS PRICEY, AS ARE OUR CUSTOM 6.8 SC UPPERS. WALMART HAS NOTHING TO FEAR FROM M.S.T.N. PUTTING THEM OUT OF BUSINESS ANYTIME SOON. STILL, I AM CONFIDENT THERE IS A NICHE FOR WHAT WE PRODUCE. PLUS, I'M HAVING A GREAT TIME BUILDING THEM. I DO NOT WANT THE TOPIC TO GET OFF ITS 6.8 SPC TRACK, BUT I FEEL I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT THERE IS A SEAL TEAM TRAINING LOCALLY USING ARMS SIR-EQUIPPED M4'S. AND I HAVE INDEED BUILT SOME SIR-EQUIPPED UPPERS FOR CONTRACT SHOOTERS, BUT RELATIVELY FEW. I'LL START A NEW THREAD ON THIS TOPIC. WES GRANT MSTN.BIZ

Quoted: 1. DID THEY RUSH MICHAELANGELO WHEN HE WAS PAINTING THE CEILING OF THE CISTINE CHAPEL? NO. YOU CANNOT HURRY ART. NOR CAN YOU RUSH PRODUCTION OF AS CRUCIAL AN ITEM AS AN AUTOLOADING MAGAZINE. THEY'RE COMING. WORK IS IN PROGRESS AS YOU READ THIS. 2. THE 6.8 SPC ROUND IS SAAMI NOW. CHAMBER REAMERS ARE AVAILABLE. 3. HANDLOADS ... OTHER THAN THE LOADS WORKED UP BY MY COLLEAGUE, PAUL E., AND A VERY FEW OTHERS, I AM AWARE OF VERY LITTLE HANDLOADING EFFORT IN THIS CALIBER. THIS IS DUE TO THE SIMPLE FACT THAT CUSTOM DIES IN 6.8 SPC ARE NOT READILY AVAILABLE. BTW, THE HORNADY 110 GR VMAX IS A GREAT BULLET IN THIS CALIBER, AS OBVIOUSLY IS THE NEW HORNADY 115 GR OTM. 4. I AGREE THE CURRENT BARRETT OFFERING IS PRICEY, AS ARE OUR CUSTOM 6.8 SC UPPERS. WALMART HAS NOTHING TO FEAR FROM M.S.T.N. PUTTING THEM OUT OF BUSINESS ANYTIME SOON. STILL, I AM CONFIDENT THERE IS A NICHE FOR WHAT WE PRODUCE. PLUS, I'M HAVING A GREAT TIME BUILDING THEM. I DO NOT WANT THE TOPIC TO GET OFF ITS 6.8 SPC TRACK, BUT I FEEL I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT THERE IS A SEAL TEAM TRAINING LOCALLY USING ARMS SIR-EQUIPPED M4'S. AND I HAVE INDEED BUILT SOME SIR-EQUIPPED UPPERS FOR CONTRACT SHOOTERS, BUT RELATIVELY FEW. I'LL START A NEW THREAD ON THIS TOPIC. WES GRANT MSTN.BIZ

Wrong, he was rushed by the Pope, he constantly put off the Pope. Also Mikey was not a painter he was a sculptor.

Quoted:                                                                                                                                                 If I remember right, the pic's and discussions on here, obviously the thousands of rounds shot at the shot show by many gun writers, certainly were not hand loaded.

"Jack"
I was there. Were you? If you were, you would know that we shot Remington factory ammo, but only at 25 yards. We did not shoot gel, just paper targets at 25-yards.  Nobody was walking down range to check groups either, just semi and full auto mag dumps. There were a few stoppages, nothing serious, but no accuracy or ballistics testing took place.

There were not "many" gun writers there. Less than 10 I would say.  The "thousands" of rounds you refer to was closer to 1,000 rounds, maybe 2,000 at the most, is my best guess.  I shot more than most of the 30 or so people attending, and I only shot a couple hundred rounds. Most shot 20 -25 and called it a day.


MSTN,
Those who have claimed to have tested the 6.8SPC in gel, and against big game animals. And those who have implied using the 6.8SPC in combat have all said they were using ammo that predates the Remington factory offering.  If you are aware of any controlled tests, using the IWBA methods, with PRODUCTION Remington ammo, I would love to see them.  The only tests I am aware of are with preproduction and handloaded ammunition.

From what I have read and have been told, there were ,as you say, about 10 or so writters there, and in anyones book, that is a lot of writers to be near each other at one time, espcially with loaded weapons
We have all seen some pictures of all the brass all over the ground everywhere, and a lot of shooters on the line. I guess a lot of anything is Subjective.
My point was that these were obviously not hand loads.  I'm also told that somone from Remington was there representing what they were manufacturing. and they don't invite people out for hand load demo's.                                                                                                                                              Just tring to shed a little light on ammo/weapon development ,and as they get ready for other test evals, they will no doubt have accuracy comparisons, and all the other criteria ready for public consumption, like all developments go. When you read a story from 10 dif. writers, we get 10 different takes, but the three or four I have read, all seem to pretty much like what they saw and tried.
Jack

Roger that, sorry.

What sort of twist ratio is ideal for the 115 gr. SPC?  

I imagine that that will vary as dif. rds. are tried over time, just like the 5,56. Barret and PRI have had quite a bit of experiments, so we have to go by what they advise, based on their best results to date.
The Barrett sure is a mean machine from one end to the other, and I want one.
Jack

Model 1 ads say their barrels are 1:9.5. I don't know about Wes' SPR barrels.

I didn't know magazine design had anything to do with art.

Hard engineering! - it compiles / ship it!

I love it when the logistics thingie (hahahaha)  is brought up about rounds. I once asked my father about stuff like that and new rounds being introduced (my father was an ordnance officer for many years and he worked in many ammunition programs over 30+ years) (plus it was early on it the life of the 6.8 and I wanted to know what he thought because I believed some of the "experts"-who never have been involved in ammunition procurement matters and I wanted to know if it was feasible). He told me that in Viet-Nam when many people in the army and civilian world were strictly oppossed to the 5.56mm because of "Logistics Issues" (which is a largely a non-issue) he told me that the army was using 4 main issue rounds for it's infantry (.30 carbine, 30/06, .45 ACP and the then new7.62mm) with no real problems. Which, conversly when the 7.62mm was being introduced some of the same  "Logistics Issues" were brought up. It would seem to me that the 6.8 firstly is not yet for general issue consumption. but just for certain units (much like the 5.56mm early in Viet Nam). The military has some pretty good minds at times when things need to be done and it makes them happen when it wants/needs to.
Also if you need rounds on a limited basis (in the small batches of at least of 1Million you probably need a large ammunition company ready to make them until military arsenals are ready and on line HMMMMM I wonder who is tooled up and ready??? Gee I wonder? (Gee I think the same thing happened for the 7.62mm and 5.56mm early on).

For large volume general issue, you will see the govt's Lake City Arsenal pumping them out!
Jack