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Posted: 9/28/2004 8:57:46 AM EDT
[#2]
There has never been a more false statement. The TA31 is NOT darker than a TA11. It 100% is NOT TRUE and I have used and shot with both extensively. Where does misinformation like this come from? |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 10:52:45 AM EDT
[#3]
The exit pupil of the TA31 is 8mm. The TA11's is 10mm. During the daytime, the eye's pupil is 2-3mm; during twilight, typically 4-5mm, during dark conditions; typically 6-8mm. (Source www.eagleoptics.com/index.asp?pid=2739) Thus in dark conditions, especially for those people with large dilated pupils (8mm or more), the TA11 will be brighter. In any case, the larger exit pupil allows more "slop" for alignment. -z |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:25:44 PM EDT
[#4]
Zak, this is what I have been looking for. TAII chevron on the Trijicon site looks odd. Which reticle is best action model [iyo] Donut looks like a good one but I would use it wrong[shoot high within 200]. |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:31:17 PM EDT
[#5]
At the big 3Gun matches, the TA11 is pretty well represented. I've never seen a TA31 at a 3Gun match.
Chevron vs. donut is personal preference. Most people I know prefer the donut, but one of the top guys - might have been Taran - prefers the chevron. YMMV. If you aim center of mass with the center of the donut at 100 yards (instead of using the top of the donut), you'll only be 2" high. IE, For targets 5" or larger, it won't make a difference. Just practice a bunch. -z |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:59:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Thanks Zak!
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Posted: 9/28/2004 4:16:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Does the TA11 and TA31 have the same height? by that I mean the distance from the top of the #19 ARMS to the centerline of the scope. Or is the TA31 a bit shorter?
thanks |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 4:49:56 PM EDT
[#8]
It's funny how much Taran B's name is around now that he won the nationals. He is a personal friend and we have our rifles worked on by the same gunsmith. I haven't seen him in about a year, but when we were competing in the CA 3-gun cahmpionship (him winning, me having fun) he always used a Trijicon Accupoint TR21R (1.25-4). Great 3-gun scope, not really sturdy enough for a SHTF rifle.
I own a TA11E (308 Chevron) and a TA31F (223 Chevron) as well as a couple of TR21s and a TX30. I lean a little towards the TA11 for the more generious eye relief. Anyone want to trade a TA11F for my TA31F? |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 4:53:24 PM EDT
[#9]
I have a TA11 on my M16A4 and love the extra eye relief it offers, especially considering that when I am outside the wire, I am wearing a helmet and ballistic goggles. We recently did some range shooting with Night vision goggles on and I did pretty well looking through the ACOG with the NVGs on. I have the triangle reticle and am very happy with it. I was orginally looking for a TA31 since it is smaller and more powerful, but am happy that I snatched up the TA11 when I found it.
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Posted: 9/28/2004 5:02:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Aussie, I got a TA11 (donut), now doing duty as a safe queen on top of an M1A (I know it's a mismatch but I haven't got an optic for it yet), I want to get another TA31. Let me know if you want to trade
 It's this cute thing right here  
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Posted: 9/28/2004 5:13:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Wake up Mc Fly... if your pupil is only 8mm MAX then larger exit pupils of other scopes WILL NOT AND CAN NOT appear brighter if you use a scope with an exit pupil larger than 8mm. During the day a scope with a 3-4mm exit pupil will appear just as bright as the 10mm exit pupil. |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 5:17:39 PM EDT
[#12]
The TA11 sits slightly higher than the TA31 (which is already perfect or just a HAIR high in a 19S mount). I prefer the TA31 for eye relief and cheek weld and used to be a big TA11 proponent but if you can put the scope back an extra notch (using an ARMS 19S) then eye relief is not an issue. I find the TA11 eye relief a bit too long while the TA31 is too short but less too short than the TA11 is too long if that makes sense.
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Posted: 9/28/2004 7:21:50 PM EDT
[#13]
What I wrote was:
You seem to be looking for a reason to flame me, when we're just splitting hairs. I already said they'll be the same brightness during the day. However, carefully reading what I wrote reveals two cases: 1. If someone has a pupil dilated to more than 8mm, the TA11 will be brighter. 2. If someone has even only 7mm of pupil dilation, it will be easier to align the TA11 to take advantage of the full brightness because it's easier to align 7mm in 10mm than 7mm in 8mm. The TA11 has the potential to be brighter, in certain circumstances, but will be the same most of the time. Happy now? -z |
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Posted: 9/29/2004 5:39:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Zak,
Nice explanation, you are absolutely correct. As an owner and shooter of both, my preference for action shooting is the TA11B. Zeroed at 275 yards, I am on target for minute of man accuracy from the muzzle out to 350 yards. The horizon lines on the reticle are easist for me to keep canting errors out of my shooting under pressure. If I get into a two-way "match" beyond 400 or so, I think I can get away if necessary. For precision only, the TA31F is my favorite, with the stadia lines dopes for my ammunition. The extra field of view is nice for movers at a distance. An old chinese proverb, from I Ching, I believe... "Never wrestle with a pig. You only get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it" |
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Posted: 9/29/2004 7:13:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Love that proverb!
Keep in mind the other advantage of a large exit pupil - as Zak originally stated - is a larger "window" for the eye to align up with. |
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Posted: 9/29/2004 9:00:03 AM EDT
[#16]
This is interesting. I find my TA11/#19 just a bit too high as I cannot put my nose on the handle with the TA11 and thus do not have as consistant a stock weld as I would like. this is slightly off topic, but is the height above #19 for the TA55 like the TA11 or TA31? |
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Posted: 9/29/2004 9:23:18 AM EDT
[#17]
I hate threads like these. Compelling arguments from both sides.... I STILL dont know which one to get. I was always thinking I would put the TA31 on the carbine, and the TA11 on the 20" A3 rifle.... but now I am not so sure. Possibly just the other way around?
That's ok... I dont have the money yet anyway. 
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Posted: 9/29/2004 10:11:19 AM EDT
[#18]
The 4X will be better for scanning an area, or locating adjacent targets due its wider field of view and higher magnification.
The 3.5X will be faster to acquire targets that you see with your eyes looking over the gun, mainly because the eye relief is more flexible. ETA: If you want the lightest weight and smallest package over any of the optical concerns, the TA31 would be a better choice. -z |
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Posted: 9/29/2004 10:31:52 AM EDT
[#19]
Cant someone make the perfect optic?
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Posted: 9/29/2004 10:32:27 AM EDT
[#20]
I think you are splitting hairs either way.
FWIW - there is about a 1/3 of a pound difference between the two. |
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Posted: 9/29/2004 12:29:20 PM EDT
[#21]
Perhaps the chevron I saw was the '308 chevron'. TA-11 w/ 'hollow' chevron and stadia lines under is what I will look for. Thanks all for a great thread.
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Posted: 9/30/2004 5:23:23 AM EDT
[#22]
We actually had a special run of receivers made with an ACOG channel cut into the flattop. Allows you to mount a TA11 at the correct height, which is much lower than with any flattop ACOG mount. Does not allow any backup iron sights to be used, as it is not quickly removable, but for competition shooting it makes the TA11 very fast. Works with the TA31 too, but the shorter eye relief is not as fast for occluded use, as Zak already pointed out.
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Posted: 10/28/2004 10:18:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Bump for the new crowd
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Posted: 10/29/2004 1:14:52 AM EDT
[#24]
i like the ta11
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Posted: 10/29/2004 5:19:38 AM EDT
[#25]
I have owned and used both the TA11 and TA31. Because of the smaller package and lighter weight, I really wanted to make the TA31 work for me. Unfortunately, the short eye relief made this very difficult. I was mounting a TA31F to a flattop with an arms 40 mounted behind it. The only way I could get proper eye relief was to move my colapsible stock to the 2nd position. If I had removed the #40 it may have worked for me, but I want the backup sight.
For me the TA11 is the better option. YMMV |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 5:58:45 AM EDT
[#26]
Ok, I have a question... that I think I know the answer to, but not 100%.
I have played quite a bit with the TA31 but not the 11. When I used the TA31... starting at 50m and working my way into the targets.... at ranges from 50 to 25m, it was really hard to use the dot like an aimpoint with the TA31. The magnification kept making my left eye (lefty here, and left eye dom) "zoom in" on the target.... and so the BAC principle didnt work very good for quick shooting for me (both eyes open) The entire time, moving forward, I was raising and lowering the rifle to target and firing. I found that once I closed within 20m and closer.... this problem went away and the dot worked well. I assume because it was too much magnification for those distances, so my eye rejected it. Ok.... so given the TA11 is slightly less magnification, and longer eye relief, will this actually work better for my specific problem? I see where you say the 11 is better for snap shooting, but thats based on eye relief. I had not trouble with eye relief of the 31, just the problem of my eye focusing on the magnified target, instead of just using the dot for BAC. Make sense? |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 6:04:35 AM EDT
[#27]
From my limited experience with my now sold TA11, the dot was much easier to see either in BAC or with both eyes focused on the magnified sight picture, the reticle is visible as I move my head around or if the rifle has been moved around (as in your case, the rifle is brought up for each engagement), whereas with the TA31 the reticle visibility is more limited and has to be acquired more carefully.
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Posted: 11/28/2004 3:40:35 PM EDT
[#28]
tagged
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Posted: 11/28/2004 5:09:36 PM EDT
[#29]
bump for the newbies
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Posted: 11/28/2004 6:40:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Noticed the same effect starting under 15 yards for myself (older, less training, etc.), while a lot can be corrected by training and practice (after a few months off is harder to keep the left eye image stable at medium distances), a certain amount maybe how the optical responce of a person is set up. The BAC concept works great just off the muzzle and works the best for me when the distance is measured in feet (i.e. inside a room. Of course anything that blurrs the X4 image (i.e. movement of the gun) also tends to reinforce a stable image with the left eye and the donut (or cheveron) hanging in space. An interesting effect was if you were looking through a screen or some such where your left eye had a bussy close image to focus on, found that did not swtich to the X4 image of the right eye. With the A1 stock on the M16A1, have to work hard to keep close enough for the correct eye relief on the TA31 or TA31f, while the TA11 I tried was not issue with a full stock. |
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Posted: 11/28/2004 7:25:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Tagged.
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Posted: 11/29/2004 6:14:11 AM EDT
[#32]
FALARAK, I've got a TA11 and I'm right up the road from you. Drop me an IM if you want to give it a try sometimes.
In my experience, the TA11 is a little easier to use BAC because of more generous eye relief and a bigger exit pupil. The only downside is that the narrower field of view will create a blind spot when you use the magnified view in close. |
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Posted: 12/1/2004 6:07:02 PM EDT
[#33]
tag.
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Posted: 12/1/2004 8:36:59 PM EDT
[#34]
bump
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Posted: 12/9/2004 1:55:17 PM EDT
[#35]
bump for the newbies who can't search
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Posted: 12/9/2004 3:19:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Thought I would throw in my 2 cents:
I got rid of my TA01 (same as TA-31) because the eye-relief was just too short. It drove me nuts, the TA-11 is much nicer, IMO. The TA-11 is easier to get a sight picture through because it has a larger exit pupil (10mm for TA-11 vs. 8mm for the TA-31). However, both scopes are EQUALLY bright at all times, no human being, ANYWHERE, has an eye that can dialate more than 8mm. Most people can't even dialate to 7mm. So any brightness advantage you might perceive from the TA-11 over the TA-31 is imagined. The TA-11 is heavier than the TA-31. I love my TA-11F and wouldn't trade it for anything else. |
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Posted: 12/9/2004 3:38:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Like I haven't blon enough cash...
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Posted: 12/9/2004 8:26:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Exactly they are the same. I find the TA11 to have the advantage of allowing me to superimpose the reticle ofer the inside of the scope housing to help BAC on the TA11 but the larger reticle of the TA31 is better for BAC in every other aspect. The eye relief of the TA31 is not an issue with the scope mounted and nose to the charging handle hold. However I do get the scope to hit my shooting glasses once in a while which is very annoying. |
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Posted: 12/10/2004 4:12:33 PM EDT
[#39]
If you created a computer simulation of an urban fight (like Stalingrad) and reduced the conflict to a single variable (which ACOG?) with one side with the TA11 and one side with the TA31 (all other factors exactly the same) who would prevail?
These ACOGs seem reasonably similar. It seems it would take a sample of thousands to reveal a difference in MOUT utility? |
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Posted: 12/13/2004 8:37:27 AM EDT
[#40]
Have not seen much from the TA31 proponents...looks like a victory for the TA11.
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Posted: 12/13/2004 11:25:40 AM EDT
[#41]
The TA11 series better ER and larger exit pupil allows for easier and quicker reticle acquisition under stress or fast movement. It provides a little more latteral play when off center axis. I just ordered another TA11C to replace the one I stupidly sold several years ago--for me the TA11 wins hands down!!!
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Posted: 1/14/2005 3:02:30 PM EDT
[#42]
bttt for the newbies
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Posted: 1/14/2005 3:37:28 PM EDT
[#43]
 I love this place. Bump for the bumper, even though he just bumped. |
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Posted: 1/14/2005 3:44:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Hey - I will add.....
I went with the TA31. So far.... I LOVE it. Sure, I wish it had a little better eye relief. But damn... I took it out on a range with targets from 25 to 530yds. My hit potential increase was phenominal. I was flying from targets at 50... to 275.... to 100... and up to 530yds.... with incredible hit percentages. Nothing like I experienced before. Nailing glowsticks in a river from 25 to 75 yds at night was childs play. I havent done any CQB testing... waiting for my next class for that.... I was unsure at first... but no longer. |
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Posted: 1/14/2005 5:12:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Here is an TA11F!
 www.csgunworks.com [email protected] Here’s some testimonials about CS GunWorks for AR15 Board Mike at CS Gunworks is... |
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Posted: 1/14/2005 5:41:25 PM EDT
[#46]
The TA11 is available. The TA31 is not.
I'm going to wait. I tried to rationalize buying the TA11 but could not. |
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Posted: 1/14/2005 6:23:33 PM EDT
[#47]
Times change, I got a couuple of TA31 because few years back could not get the TA11 ..... |
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Posted: 1/15/2005 7:03:59 AM EDT
[#48]
im in the same boat right now.  i really like my ta31 and want one in the "f". would i be able to learn to like the ta11f? since its available now the ta31 is almost perfect for me and nowhere or one near me has a 11 for me to compare with so i wont know if ill like the ta11 unless i shell out the big bucks for it. anyone have any opinions about this? i think i should wait. but its really hard  |
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Posted: 1/15/2005 8:06:22 AM EDT
[#49]
TA31f has a little bit more field of view (across the living room can see the door with the TA11, the TA31 field of view shows space on both sides). At very close distances (under 5 yarrds), the field of view is not really a factor as when using the BAC, what you see of the target is the image in your LEFT eye and you right eye is adding the aiming point.
For me, almost have to have a TA11 on a n A1 stock (getting older and neck does not streatch as well ... :-), while the TA31 works very well on a M4 stock in one or two clicks (depending on how many stops you have). The TA31 will clink my glasses every now and then on full auto. Some one "needs" to take the same image through the TA31 and TA11 at a medium distance (under 25 yards of a door way or other common items (have not gotten my own TA11 yet and there is this lighting link that is trying to follow me home as an under study for the M16A1 ;-). |
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Posted: 1/15/2005 1:04:31 PM EDT
[#50]
I am coocoo for cocoa puffs over my TA11, I originally wanted a TA31 but Zak influenced me on the TA11...It would be nice to have TA11 performance in a TA31 size package....maybe a TA11/31.
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