I've thought that for awhile too.  (the next war, alice gear.  well, not ALICE, but a newer version of it)

While I see the use of armor or things like the FLC for Mech units - which will still have their place, running with the tanks - it would be incredibly expensive to ramp up production and maintain a large wartime fighting force all decked out in decent armor, even if we still had a steel industry and resorted to steel armor.  

I fully believe that large parts of the next war will be fought at least partially without armor.  Probably still helmets though.  Shrapnel and such.  

Ukraine wouldn't have armor on most of their troops if it wasn't for the billions of dollars being thrown at them.

New draftees, a year into the next war, are going to be lucky to be handed old used surplus ACU pattern FLC's.  We do not have the manufacturing base, nor the ability to ramp up production quickly, to make enough gear to give them all even FLC's, much less gucci plate carriers with armor.  And our gear manufacturing base is one of the strongest industries in the USA, one of the few that actually produces stuff here anymore.  (Though most of the raw materials used to make the materials the industry uses all come from overseas, especially China / Russia...........)

I could see the resurgence of the ALICE pack or some thing similar to it again.  Much simpler than alot of the packs out today.  Maybe with an aluminum stay internal frame, that might be easier to do than an external frame.  Depends on the availability of the polymer materials available I guess though.

I would guess that there has to be something to do with lower cost to using separate frames and packs.  Although we do know external frames can carry more weight.  I have always thought how great it would be to have an internal frame Alice pack.  A medium Alice can’t possibly hold that much weight would require an external frame. Maybe if I come across an extra medium Alice pack I’ll take the plunge and modify one.

They are getting hard to find, but there are some still out there.  They are getting more expensive.

Currently there are new production Marpat camo pattern ALICE packs, complete with frame, belt, straps, etc. on the surplus market for $60-70.  They were made in either Germany or Italy for Albania, who couldn't pay for the order.  They are slightly bigger than a medium ALICE and smaller than a large ALICE.  They are a pretty good deal for the money.

Loadout from someone working over in Ukraine.  

Pretty gucci belt kit setup, mostly minimalist slick carrier.  

Link, please.  NVM; found it.  Now $70 plus S+H.

Yeah those Finns are a hoot.  They mother-fuck putting silencers on hook and loop closures but do exactly that with their new tuck tab pouches. I think it has something to do with all that cold weather and nothing to do but drink vodka.

Before I came onboard, Crossfire was associated with MR, as they used the same vendors for manufacturing their products.  They then had a falling out before I showed up, but you can see many similarities in their products.  I think the split lumbar and waist pads is one of them.  MR still makes massively padded lumbar and hips pads; Crossfire has gone in another direction, and made them thinner, and/or removable, so as to better work with belt kits.  As much as I'd like to take credit for that, it was all Ian from Wilderness Equipment who did the early design work for CF.  But if the Diz rig sucks, then yeah, I am responsible for all that.  

We all stand on the shoulders of those that went before us.  I take inspiration from many sources, then put my little spin on it, to create something different.  I think what Crossfire has been trying to do, is take the best features from both civilian and military back packs to give you something that works with your fighting load out, be that a belt kit, or chest rig/pc.   That has certainly been my goal all along.  I have been extremely lucky that Crossfire has provided the vehicle to do that.   And the irony is that there was some initial hesitation in some quarters, because they looked at it and said, well that's just our belt kit gussied up for the US market.  And I said well no shit, how soon can we make it.  

Yea, most of my ideas came from years of looking at pictures and videos of various belt kits - I've got a collections of hundreds of pictures of various belts, harnesses, pouches, setups, etc.  Then listening to various people talking about belt kit and their issues with using it - and throwing in my early experience with ALICE gear - and thinking about how to work out the bugs people complain about.  Going back to look at the pictures, etc. for ideas.  

Pretty much none of my gear is my idea - just like Diz said, I went and took the best aspects of everything I could find and trying to put it into a single package.  Which is probably why my stuff is somewhat similar to Diz's gear, with a few difference (8 point vs. 6 point.  My preference for buttpacks.  A few other design changes - I tend to sew my female belt buckle to the left side close to the end of the belt, with the male side loose for instance.  I think fastex buckles work better for utility pouches, so you can cinch them down for different loads - but I like Diz's use of his closure for the mag pouches.  If my mag pouches weren't double purpose, AR & AK compatible, I would switch over to the same tuck tab.  Different harness concept and design, etc.)  

That's because, as of right now, this is what works.  The wide belt provides weight bearing, stability, and stops the pouches from flopping.  The webbing belt wrapping all the way around in one piece stops flex and sagging, tightens everything together, provides a strong, stable base for the pouches to ride on, especially when it comes to the pack resting on the rear pouches.  Breathable solid inner fabric to wick away sweat.  Shaped belt to allow the hips and thighs to freely move, etc. etc. etc.  

I think the next generation of this is tweaking the materials, with some of the potential new materials, for specifics parts of the system.  The stuff I'm possibly seeing is laminated 500d and 1000d fabric for the main bodies, as these fabrics get cheaper and better.  Some of the newer, waterproof fabrics for potential lid materials.  Some of the newer laser cut materials potentially for the back panel of the harness, potentially for the front straps too, the part below where it rides on the shoulders.

While different from the jungle kits discussed here from what i can see that Is the direction in which combat kits for career, non conscript infantry, are going.
Definitely a fare crye from the minimalist pistol oriented belts of the last 30 years (which still are relevant obviously). Looks like 6 mags on the belt plus maybe 3 on the plate carrier kangaroo pouch.
Small "day pack", dangler and only a tourniquet pouch. Side soft armor maybe. No dump pouch (i Always remind about Officer Pence in the newhall shooting and sometimes wonder if a dump pouch, which i use, induces bad habits)

I think Jeff Gurwich video on "Patrol rigs" was and interesting point of view on the subject.

Also for you Americans and your inane love for buttpacks, this Is your castigation

I am joking obviously.

Ok, so THIS is different.  

Edit: Great minds think alike!

Ok, can someone help explain to me what’s up with those weird angles on those belts?

Starting to pack stuff for the weekend FTX. This older Eberlestock built on the Alice frame works nicely with the DZ rig, simce the harness can be adjusted to make it more of a shorter back ruck, right where your belt kit sits.

Attached File

Ok, so I THINK they are angled off to the side like that so that you can more easily access the pouches behind your back.  Probably mag related, possibly for snipers and the like who spend ALOT of time on their stomachs.  

I actually do appreciate someone thinking outside of the box, even if that looks insanely stupid  

I've actually been considering sewing up a knockoff of an ALICE pack, modified extensively of course, because I can.  And putting it on a Crossfire pack suspension system, because their frame and such is great.

How's your 'alice compatible' pack working on the Crossfire frame?  Your post is of interest to me.

Eberlestock made that pack around an Alice frame.

I am dusting it off, as it plays nice with the DZ Rig webbing. I have other packs that are too long.

Does it ride right on the crossfire frame?  No extreme sway or anything?

It is riding nice with the Crossfire DZ rig harness. I dont have a Crossfire frame, that pack is housing an Alice frame inside there. The overly generous kidney pad pushes things a little far from the body. However, the whole setup is nice. I only have about 12 miles on the total setup as of now. This weekend will be a good test.

A Crossfire pack is on my list of wants, gotta save up some coin to add that to my pack collection. I am still using a large Alice for winter for the added gear.

Anyone worked the T3 or aluminum Fortitude frames rigged short back?

*smacks forehead*  Doh!

I thought you had thrown one of the Crossfire framesets into your pack.

Hey, what size aloksak's are those?  I went to look at some to get for this same purpose - better than the ziplocks I've been using - and there are so many sizes.

Does this kit come with a folding titanium grapple hook, and Kevlar Paracord ?
Miniature flame thrower?
Geiger counter/cumulative dosimeter?
HF manpack with  Portable NVIS antenna ?
Entrenching tool ?
Lightsaber ?

here

also plate carrier cummerbunds are angled

From @marnsdorff: "I think fastex buckles work better for utility pouches, so you can cinch them down for different loads - but I like Diz's use of his closure for the mag pouches.  If my mag pouches weren't double purpose, AR & AK compatible, I would switch over to the same tuck tab.  Different harness concept and design, etc.)"

Would it be possible to sew 1" webbing to upper/outer end of tuck tab, and then run the 1" webbing through a 1" fastex buckle which was anchored on the front of the lid of the pouch?  Best of both worlds.

@marnsdorff

I mostly use the 4x5" pouches, but the 3x6" will fit some narrower/taller pouches better.

ROCK6

Is it possible to supply links to vendors who will sell multiples of various size Aloksacks?  IOW multiple 4x5 and/or 3x6, etc., hopefully at some sort of "volume" discount?

@ROCK6

*raises eyebrow in interest at the kevlar paracord*

(you also left out power armor)

Yea, but then it starts to get complicated.  And you run out of room on alot of the pouches.  For instance, this is one of my nalgene bottle pouches that I finished last night,  that's going on a set of belt kit.  Even with this tall pouch, you can see that the female buckle is already sewn on really far down on the bottom of the pouch.  



I think Diz has a working concept to try and make an adjustable one though.  I don't know the details.  Hopefully he figures it out, I do like his closure system in general.

Thanks @rock6 btw.

And Raf, I think Amazon is the best choice, I've been looking for that too.

What you have pictured above is more-or-less conventional adjustable QD buckle pouch closure.

Let's say the "female" receptacle for tuck-tab is near bottom of front of pouch.  Suitable for "engagement" of male tuck-tab, and easily found since engagement point is found by hand.

OK, now that that is done, allow "Tuck-Tab" to be on an adjustable length of webbing, which webbing is secured by an adjustable buckle on lid of pouch.

Perhaps I'm faulty in describing this, but I can "see" it.

Yea, I getcha.  It might be doable, I just don't think there is going to be enough room to do both and still have the pouch fully close.

Only one way to find out.

Maybe doing a floating lid for the pouches adjusted via a strap and triglide in the back?
If the pouch Is two layers of cordura or PVC lined maybe the tuck Tab instead of being seen to the pouch It May consist of a full strap routed in between the two aforementioned layers and again adjusted somehow in the back.

You want the lid sewn to the belt, the lid is one of the big weight supporter of the pack that might rest on top of it.  Good idea though.

And good idea too on the running the strap between the cordura, but you want the strap to potentially be higher than that - you can tuck the female buckle of a fastex buckle - the bottom buckle half usually - up over the edge of the lid, allowing you to cinch it down even more, should you pull a bunch of stuff out of it.  However, potentially you could make the TOP strap adjustable via triglide, way further up near the top of the pouch.  

Like I said, I know Diz has said he has a working idea on how to make his thing adjustable.  If he can get that working right, then I might end up stealing that idea too (I stole his bungie cinch channel idea already) and use that.  Because his whole closure system, at least for magazine pouches, is really elegant and cool.  I don't want to just gank his idea and copy it + have to learn to do a whole 'nother thing unless I'm going to be using it across the board.  Not that it looks hard to do.  I mean, if someone straight up asks me to do a closure system like that, sure, I'd learn to do it and put it on the pouch for the customer, but I'm ok with not doing that until the kinks get worked out on adjustable stuff.  I have enough on my plate trying to get the rest of my patterning and prototypes done - I still need to finish up those 40 round pmag pouches I have half done for instance, they've been delayed while working on stuff for customers who had paid for stuff - and catching up on the last couple orders I still have to do.  I'm trying to keep my turn around time short for customers while still finishing up some new designs.  I've even brought someone on part time to do some design work on my smocks for me, re-sizing the prototype I got done into appropriate sizes.  (I don't have experience doing that kind of thing and it's just easier to get someone else to resize it for me)

1990's custom British belt kit set.

I would use a QASM buckle on the bottom of the water bottle pouches.

@marnsdorff

How many p mags it in that Nalgene pouch?

This is one of the directions I've been exploring as well: minimalist carrier with most gear on the belt.

4 x 40 round pmags, 5 if you don't mind putting one in all wonky on the side.  You SHOULD be able to fit 4 x AK mags in there too, though I didn't try.  And the lid closes perfectly fine.

These nalgene bottle pouches are actually pretty decent general purposed pouches - they will fit a 32 ounce nalgene or stainless steel similar bottle, with a nesting titanium cup and stove.  You can also put USGI canteens in there.  And of course, a ton of mags, including the big mags.  Or whatever you want to put in there.  They are sized perfect to fit on an 8" tall British style belt, sewn on or with only 2 columns of MOLLE taken up if you want them MOLLE.  Bungie cord cinch.  3 rows x 2 columns of MOLLE on each side of the pouch.  I can fit 2 x of these pouches and a buttpack on one of my regular 32.5" british belts, and still have room for 4 columns of molle for ammo on each side of the belt.  You can also put 2 x slightly larger, similar pattern pouches instead of the buttpack.  I almost have those pouches finished being designed.  








Here's a batch of nalgene bottle pouches that I finished last night.  I'm using them for a run of full sets of belt kit to put up for sale.  

Any of you that purchased one of the original first round DZ Rigs with the sewn on mag pouches, and you would rather have the New style with the molle attached/removable mag pouches, PM me if you want to sell the "Old" one towards funds to purchase a new one.

I wanted to order another rig, and all they have is new style now. :(

Looking great!

If you can't dig up a sewn on mag pouch version, and Diz can't hook you up, let me know.  I can do you something similar with sewn on pouches.

This weekend I did my first extended use of the DZ rig in the field.

Ruck march, day patrol, fire team drills, night patrol.

#1) I was worried about carrying a 40ish pound ruck without the waist belt because thats the only way I have ever done it. I will say that my practice hikes to get the ruck and rig adjusted to ride together paid off big. Was much more comfortable that I thought it would be.

#2) Need to work on how exactly I am going to wear a radio, and antenna, on the rig and it work with and without a ruck. Work in progress. I had it worked out well with the old chest rig.

#3) I need a new compass that still glows apparently. But, I did remember the challenge/password so the release point security didnt light me up when we came wondering back from walking a giant circle missing the objective like idiots. Lol.

Of the eight people I was moving with, four of us had DZ rigs and we had never met before. I hosed my pants/field top down with horse grade permethrin earlier in the week and I was the only one not removing ticks after.

Soaking / spraying your clothing and gear in permethrin should be talked about more.

As for the radio, attach the radio pouch to the front of one of the water bottle / utility pouches (between it and the mag pouches) or reversed, on the mag pouches.  Then use either a, I dunno what they call it, the antenna you can weave through MOLLE, or one of those adapters that lets you place the antenna somewhere else on your body.  Maybe run the antenna under the utility pouches?  Or up the side of the shoulder harness?

I'm about to do that to a set of clothing.  I'm planning on testing out an Emerson Gear G3 combat set over the summer to see how the pants hold up compared to Cryes.  Found a military treatment kit on eBay for like, $10 shipped that I'm going to try out.  Should be good for a top and bottom at minimum.

Please report back on the pants btw.  Been wondering about these.  I've heard decent reviews about them - they aren't Crye's, but for 1/3rd the price, they seem to last 90% as long with 95% of the usability.

Also, you can get bulk permethrin at Tractor supply and such.  It's usually concentrated and you need to cut it with water.

Yeah, its not too bad with highband VHF/UHF stuff. I have a relocation cable running behind the mag pouches and back up front. The larger low band VHF stuff is a different story.

TBH; I think it would help to have more than two columns of molle on the sides of the sustainment pouches. Three would be a big help for heavier radios. But a man with bungie cords and 550 cord marches on.

Attached File

I remember hearing Tribal Elite is the Crye knock off to go with for combat pants. ~$80. Supposed to be a stitch for stitch korean-made copy.

I still prefer Tru Spec’s TRU combat shirt since it’s got a mock turtleneck instead of the annoying 1/4 zip collar. Just wish it was offered in their all-terrain tiger for $50 like their standard combat shirt. Still, $90 is better than the $150+ of Crye, (Or $60 for woodland or ODG) and it’s probably the most comfortable alternative if mandarin collars bug you like they bug me.

Their BDU coat is a decent field shirt, but I haven’t yet found a good field shirt in multicam that isn’t $100+ or have some really dumb design features.

I have an option to run 3 columns of MOLLE on my Nalgene bottle pouches, even though I usually just do 2.  But I have room for 3.  

And 4 on the buttpacks  

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006L4AJPK?tag=arfcom00-20

https://www.propper.com/mens/shirts/military-shirts/propper-ihwcu-ocp-hot-weather-coat.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313570873359

Link?