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Posted: 7/26/2023 10:44:40 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Here is a direct comparison of high quality ammo (pre-ELEY WOLF Match Extra) to inexpensive ammo (Remington-made from the CMP) fired in a good rifle by a not-so-good shooter. A lot of the variation is from the shooter but not all. The differences are plain to see but these groups likely exaggerates them due to small sample size (n=5) on the top 3 types. The Remington likes Wolf Match Extra.  Cheap ammo shows its issues, even at 25 yards. The bottom two targets have about 30 rounds of this ammo in them. Note the pattern. I also saw this same pattern while plinking steel. This is Remington ammo from the CMP and it is now relegated to pistol ammo. https://i.ibb.co/rdKKWTp/IMG-0868b.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Originally Posted By TN-MadDog: I don’t care how good you are, shooting these targets with crappy ammo is a waste of time. Good quality consistent ammo will make a significant difference. Here is a direct comparison of high quality ammo (pre-ELEY WOLF Match Extra) to inexpensive ammo (Remington-made from the CMP) fired in a good rifle by a not-so-good shooter. A lot of the variation is from the shooter but not all. The differences are plain to see but these groups likely exaggerates them due to small sample size (n=5) on the top 3 types. The Remington likes Wolf Match Extra. Cheap ammo shows its issues, even at 25 yards. The bottom two targets have about 30 rounds of this ammo in them. Note the pattern. I also saw this same pattern while plinking steel. This is Remington ammo from the CMP and it is now relegated to pistol ammo. https://i.ibb.co/rdKKWTp/IMG-0868b.jpg I always slip a few rounds of Rem Thunder Bolts in my buddies box when we shoot this challenge.  |
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Posted: 7/26/2023 10:47:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Plank_Spanker]
[#2]
DBL Tap
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Posted: 7/26/2023 12:42:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: This is my first clean but WOW!, so close. I thought it was 23/25 until I got out the scoring gauges. The black smudge and hole in the copier paper are very much sub-caliber. I had to use a scoring gauge to verify the two that were so close were actually hits. I used both an Eagle Eye magnifier and a plug type gauge. Both showed them as "skin of your teeth" hits. https://i.ibb.co/DCPPQ6m/IMG-0867a.jpg This is an Anschutz model 54 action in a Competition Machine AN-1 chassis. https://i.ibb.co/MkTzMtv/IMG-0864.jpg This is 23/25 is from my favorite rifle, a Remington Model 37. This rifle was made in 1937. On the right side are some ammo test groups, also fired using the Remington. https://i.ibb.co/2jtnh4f/IMG-0868a.jpg https://i.ibb.co/xC22dhd/IMG-0862.jpg Lessons Learned - The AN-1 stock recoils straight back and this is what I am used to. The Remington has a bit more muzzle rise and you have to be more careful to control the recoil (butt solidly in the shoulder). Next trip, I move out to 50 yards. Awesome Guns and Shooting! I thought to drive the tack - you had to break the white in the middle... Red |
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USA
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Posted: 7/27/2023 1:35:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By badredfish: Awesome Guns and Shooting! I thought to drive the tack - you had to break the white in the middle... Red Thanks for the compliments. IIRC, the rule says you have to completely sever the black line, which means you have to at least touch the white. I thought I had two misses until I used scoring gauges on them. Both gauges showed they were hits, so I took them. I'm not proud of needing gauges to prove they were hits. Darn it!, I'll just have to shoot them again. :-) |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2023 3:17:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: du9207]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Thanks for the compliments. IIRC, the rule says you have to completely sever the black line, which means you have to at least touch the white. I thought I had two misses until I used scoring gauges on them. Both gauges showed they were hits, so I took them. I'm not proud of needing gauges to prove they were hits. Darn it!, I'll just have to shoot them again. :-) Or it won't count 
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Posted: 7/27/2023 5:16:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By du9207: Yes you will Or it won't count Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By du9207: Originally Posted By Trollslayer: Thanks for the compliments. IIRC, the rule says you have to completely sever the black line, which means you have to at least touch the white. I thought I had two misses until I used scoring gauges on them. Both gauges showed they were hits, so I took them. I'm not proud of needing gauges to prove they were hits. Darn it!, I'll just have to shoot them again. :-) Or it won't count Hard but fair....lol What keeps you going at it... Red ps I shoot the target most of the time with a 17 HMR - still a tuff game to play and I know it has made me a better shooter. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/27/2023 6:08:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By du9207: Yes you will Or it won't count Oh, DARN! I guess I'll just have to. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2023 9:43:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Oh, DARN! I guess I'll just have to. I'll have to get to it next week possibly and I'll post my results no matter how bad |
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USA
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Posted: 7/28/2023 1:35:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#9]
Yes, that was understood.
I did really enjoy myself at the range that day. I had the whole place to myself. If I wasn't shooting it was quiet, except for the birds. I know I can do better. I just have to go back to prove it. I made a set of targets for my aperture sights - same white dot but bigger aiming black for use with irons. Maybe I should try those - prone, sling, 25 yards. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 7/28/2023 2:47:03 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Yes, that was understood. I did really enjoy myself at the range that day. I had the whole place to myself. If I wasn't shooting it was quiet, except for the birds. I know I can do better. I just have to go back to prove it. I made a set of targets for my aperture sights - same white dot but bigger aiming black for use with irons. Maybe I should try those - prone, sling, 25 yards. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 7/31/2023 12:06:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Decided to give this a go againb. Jesus, it was a brutal day for rimfire. Winds at 6 gusting to 17. The range I shoot at is a bit wonky how its built so the wind does really weird shit and its hard as fuck to read. Either way, I didnt have high hopes given the wind but hell still had fun! 50 yard target here. Whats most interesting to me is row 2, shots 3 and 4. They both shifted damn near the same which I thought was telling on the wind. But, this is also done with CCI Sv which isnt super great at 50. The astute observer will also note that on row 4 position 1 theres two shots (Both high)......My girlfriend was also shooting a tack driver and she got lost and shot the wrong damn target....
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USA
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Posted: 7/31/2023 5:46:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#12]
I'm not trying to be serious here, so, just for fun, what score do you give yourself on that target? Do you just eyeball it or gauge it? If by eye, what do use use as the extent of the hole (hit or miss)?
What rifle & scope did you use? I'll be doing 50 yards next time I go. I'm expecting a similar target. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 7/31/2023 7:08:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2JokersWild]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: I'm not trying to be serious here, so, just for fun, what score do you give yourself on that target? Do you just eyeball it or gauge it? If by eye, what do use use as the extent of the hole (hit or miss)? What rifle & scope did you use? I'll be doing 50 yards next time I go. I'm expecting a similar target. This was a Tikka T1x with Trijicon 3-18 Tenmile FFP shooting CCI SV ammo. |
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Posted: 8/1/2023 12:31:56 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2JokersWild: On my target I score it an 11. Usually in shooting the "tie goes to the runner", but in this case since I'm scoring myself I want a clear, no bullshit clean hit. I tend to set a pretty high bar for myself. I still think a single “tack” with no border would be a great revision to this game. A scoring gauge shouldn’t be needed. You either hit the tack or you didn’t. If there’s any white space between the tack and the grease ring, it’s a miss. Maybe that’s a Tack (2.0) driving game… |
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USA
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Posted: 8/1/2023 1:02:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: I still think a single “tack” with no border would be a great revision to this game. A scoring gauge shouldn’t be needed. You either hit the tack or you didn’t. If there’s any white space between the tack and the grease ring, it’s a miss. Maybe that’s a Tack (2.0) driving game… The thing is, the bullet is much, much larger than the hole it punches and even much larger than the black ring it leaves behind. At least, that is true for the plain copier paper I am using. The tan paper used for NRA targets behaves very differently. You get much cleaner, almost full-sized holes. If you do not have a scoring gage, use a bullet as a plug or measure the hole diameter with your reloading caliper. You'll see the issue immediately. If your point is scoring gages should be disallowed, I would support that. I've never used one before and my gut tells me they are "a cheat". I wonder if that NRA paper is available and I wonder if it works in a laser printer. Maybe I will cut one down to 8 1/2 X 11 and try to print on the blank rear face. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 8/1/2023 5:06:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: The thing is, the bullet is much, much larger than the hole it punches and even much larger than the black ring it leaves behind. At least, that is true for the plain copier paper I am using. The tan paper used for NRA targets behaves very differently. You get much cleaner, almost full-sized holes. If you do not have a scoring gage, use a bullet as a plug or measure the hole diameter with your reloading caliper. You'll see the issue immediately. If your point is scoring gages should be disallowed, I would support that. I've never used one before and my gut tells me they are "a cheat". I wonder if that NRA paper is available and I wonder if it works in a laser printer. Maybe I will cut one down to 8 1/2 X 11 and try to print on the blank rear face. It would be nice to get a better paper, I agree with that and if you do find anything let me know! For that matter, if anyone has a line on cheap "Shoot'n see" type targets I would appreciate that as well. I know the regular ones really arent that pricey, but hell I can print targets for almost nothing so just dont want to buy the Shoot and See targets more on principle than anything. |
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Posted: 8/1/2023 5:34:20 PM EDT
[#17]
I try to be very conservative scoring my targets.
Other folks can score their targets however they like. Since everyone is posting photos of their targets we all get to score them. I have seen some “misses” that I would call hits and I’ve seen some “hits” that I would call misses. I mentally adjust those scores accordingly. 
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USA
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Posted: 8/2/2023 1:25:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2JokersWild: My opinion is that given this is a friendly game (And not an official scored for points competition) it really is up to the individual shooter. Scoring gauges are a standardized method of scoring shots so in and of itself theres nothing wrong with it. I mean hell, I'd rather a guy use a scoring gauge and not cheat rather than legitimately cheat and hang his 50 yard target at 40 then brag about his marksmanship. But that is why video evidence is nice....But even that doesnt prove anything. The range I shoot at our 50 yard berm actually ranges out to 53! It would be nice to get a better paper, I agree with that and if you do find anything let me know! For that matter, if anyone has a line on cheap "Shoot'n see" type targets I would appreciate that as well. I know the regular ones really arent that pricey, but hell I can print targets for almost nothing so just dont want to buy the Shoot and See targets more on principle than anything. I forgot to take the paper with me today. I'll try tomorrow. The targets I have are on fairly thin paper, as "Official Target" paper goes, so it should feed through the printer. My rifles and ammo are capable. It's this shooter who's wonky! |
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Posted: 8/2/2023 9:44:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Just pull a bullet out of a case & use it as a gauge.
If the scoring ever gets heated enough to warrant it, take a photo of the projectile in the hole. I shoot this quite often & have printed plenty on cheap paper just due to the cost, I also have targets on heavier mil paper if I ever have a need to "Score" the target for money or bragging rights. My wagers are almost exclusively FRIENDLY wagers. I'm just not as invested in it to care. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/3/2023 1:46:50 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Plank_Spanker: Just pull a bullet out of a case & use it as a gauge. If the scoring ever gets heated enough to warrant it, take a photo of the projectile in the hole. I shoot this quite often & have printed plenty on cheap paper just due to the cost, I also have targets on heavier mil paper if I ever have a need to "Score" the target for money or bragging rights. My wagers are almost exclusively FRIENDLY wagers. I'm just not as invested in it to care. Truly! I think we are all just discussing this not arguing over it. I have one of those plug gauges with a magnifier, I also have a magnified, non-contact overlay gauge (Eagle Eye). It truly doesn't matter. It is only for fun and for learning. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/3/2023 1:49:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#21]
So,... I printed some targets on the back side of "Official NRA Target". I cut the paper down to 8 1/2 X 11 and told the laser printer the paper was thin card stock. It fed and printed perfectly.
I'm hoping for cleaner, full caliber holes. I'll use them this weekend, so we will see,... soon. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:28:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#22]
My latest attempt at 25 yards yielded a scope of 23/25.
Loss of focus (overconfidence?) cost me two in a row. After the third was a near miss, I paused for a minute. If I screw my head on straight, I can get hits. This target paper is better than plain copier paper. Learning From Using Scoring Gages - The hole and black smudge in the target paper is bigger than in copier paper but still not even close to full sized. An unfired cartridge works as well as a plug type scoring gauge but lacks the magnifier which the gauge has. 
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2023 12:41:17 PM EDT
[#23]
We need to request access to the targets? Is this normal? I clicked on the link on the first page and to download these targets for Friday and I google say I need to request access? Any idea how quickly we get approved?
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USA
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Posted: 8/15/2023 12:58:46 PM EDT
[#24]
I am pretty sure, farther into the thread is a different link that does not require that.
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Posted: 8/15/2023 5:07:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TN-MadDog]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By du9207: We need to request access to the targets? Is this normal? I clicked on the link on the first page and to download these targets for Friday and I google say I need to request access? Any idea how quickly we get approved? I am able to open them, not sure why you are having problems. Here is a link to the thread on Rimfire Central, scroll down to post #6 for both links. Maybe those will work for you. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/16/2023 2:29:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#26]
If I can manage it, next time I go I will shoot one at each distance.
I'd really like to have a clean "clean - an unambiguous score of 25/25 that does not rely on scoring gauges. I know can do it, I just need to stay fully focused for 25 shots. The 50 and 100 yard targets would be a learning experience for me - a wind reading experience using rimfire. Tell tales of various kinds will be needed, as mine is a windy range (10 mph fishtails are a common daily occurrence). That's the plan. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 8/16/2023 6:34:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: If I can manage it, next time I go I will shoot one at each distance. I'd really like to have a clean "clean - an unambiguous score of 25/25 that does not relay on scoring gages. I know can do it, I just need to stay fully focused for 25 shots. The 50 and 100 yard targets would be a learning experience for me - a wind reading experience using rimfire. Tell tales of various kinds will be needed, as mine is a windy range (10 mph fishtails are a common daily occurrence). That's the plan. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/17/2023 12:46:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2JokersWild: 10 mph is a 3.5 to 4 inch shift. If it's not a steady 10mph I figure it'll be near impossible to clean it at 100 It's both fun and a learning experience. :-) Learning to gauge the wind is more important than the score. Post Script - I went back and reviewed some of the targets posted in this thread. It seems the vertical errors are as frequent and as large as are the lateral errors. This was true for targets fired indoors as well as those fired outdoors. To me, this implies the errant shots are caused by the shooter or the ammo, not by the wind. Perhaps, we are smart enough to wait for a lull in the wind or to wait for a repeatable condition. Who knows? I'll report back after the next shoot, no matter the outcome. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/18/2023 1:44:02 PM EDT
[#29]
I'm taking the 50 yard challenge everyone and it's not going well
If I was in school I would have an F i feel the 86 degree hitting but that's the reason why I'm missing. I'll post that in a few hours once I'm doing but I'm gain some valuable info from this challenge |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 2:41:52 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: It's both fun and a learning experience. :-) Learning to gauge the wind is more important than the score. Post Script - I went back and reviewed some of the targets posted in this thread. It seems the vertical errors are as frequent and as large as are the lateral errors. This was true for targets fired indoors as well as those fired outdoors. To me, this implies the errant shots are caused by the shooter or the ammo, not by the wind. Perhaps, we are smart enough to wait for a lull in the wind or to wait for a repeatable condition. Who knows? I'll report back after the next shoot, no matter the outcome. Wind can cause vertical errors also. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/18/2023 4:37:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#31]
Yes, but proportionately less than the vertical deflection. At least, that's true for centerfire at short and medium ranges. Having said that, I've never run the numbers for rimfire at these distances.
I'm waiting to see what du9207 came up with. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/18/2023 11:20:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: du9207]
[#32]
The results were horrible but I've never had so much fun while being bad at something.
I realized the curved trigger of the Ruger Precision is not my thing. Half way into the shooting, I figured out I get a better pull ( and groups) when I pull from the very bottom of the trigger. I read I can adjust the trigger pull so I'll look into this. Timney makes a trigger for this rifle for $260 and comes in a flat face. May be something to think about. I have about 100 rounds with this rifle and I noticed I'm squeezing the trigger incorrectly. I noticed i'm making it "BREAK" instead of just pressing back and letting it do its thing. I've always focused on handgun shooting so this type of precision shooting is not my thing but honestly, I think this will be my next addiction. It was hard and I could feel my heart beating while trying to concentrate lol (How do i post pictures here without having to post a link from IMGUR?) Scroll down on the link here to view some of the groupings I shot today |
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USA
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Posted: 8/19/2023 12:37:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By du9207: The results were horrible but I've never had so much fun while being bad at something. LOL! They're not horrible, they are what they are. I'd bet you are about 1 MOA average for the 25 shots. You have a nice set up there. Think about what you learned during and after the effort. I find it helps to write it down (typing it here helps, too). Write down the sight settings and stock adjustments, too. If shooting were easy, it would be half as much fun or half as interesting. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/19/2023 12:38:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#34]
 I tried to post it for you but I do not have your permissions with IMGUR. When you post a reply, there is a menu bar above the text entry field. Click the picture icon, paste the url for the image and then "submit". |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/19/2023 11:28:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: du9207]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: https://imgur.com/a/t6WbX6P I tried to post it for you but I do not have your permissions with IMGUR. When you post a reply, there is a menu bar above the text entry field. Click the picture icon, paste the url for the image and then "submit". ok I just tried let's see what it does edit: all I see is that little box with the question mark. Do we have to be paid members on this website to be able to post embedded pictures? |
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USA
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Posted: 8/19/2023 2:11:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#36]
 I don't use Imgur, I use imgbb.com. My impression is Imgur is going the way of Photobucket - going to destroy access to the photos their user host there. |
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Posted: 8/19/2023 3:41:29 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: https://i.ibb.co/SXSwBjg/du9207.jpg I don't use Imgur, I use imgbb.com. My impression is Imgur is going the way of Photobucket - going to destroy access to the photos their user host there. Imgur still works fine for me, you just have to get the correct link. It's easier for me on a computer Vs my phone. The only change that I know of is that they are removing all NSFW type photos. |
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Posted: 8/19/2023 3:43:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TN-MadDog]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By du9207: https://imgur.com/a/t6WbX6P ok I just tried let's see what it does edit: all I see is that little box with the question mark. Do we have to be paid members on this website to be able to post embedded pictures? Are you using your phone or a computer? It's different for each. Edit: non paying have to use a hosting website, paying members can upload directly from a computer or other device |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/20/2023 3:17:37 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TN-MadDog: Are you using your phone or a computer? It's different for each. Edit: non paying have to use a hosting website, paying members can upload directly from a computer or other device |
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USA
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Posted: 10/28/2023 1:58:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#40]
I tried this yesterday afternoon at 50 yards. The wind was periodically blowing the shots as much as ~1/2" to 1" to the left.
The thing is, from where I was seated, it did not seem windy, not really, so it took a while to realize the source of the problem. I thought the scope came loose or something. I scored 13/25. |
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Posted: 10/28/2023 4:30:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: I tried this yesterday afternoon at 50 yards. The wind was periodically blowing the shots as much as ~1/2" to the left. The thing is, it did not seem windy, not really, so it took a while to realize the source of the problem. I thought the scope came loose or something. I scored 13/25. It's not as easy as it seems. If you have access to an indoor range it will take environmental factors out and all that's left is the gun, ammo, and you. An outdoor range means you have to be able to anticipate the wind's effects. You can use the sighters to get an idea of what hold over you might need. Show up early in the morning when it's usually calm. I'm not a morning person so I never get to take advantage of this. I have a roll of surveyor tape in my range bag to tie to the target backstop so I can see what the wind is doing. Mostly just to wait and let it droop from a lull in the gusts. |
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USA
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Posted: 10/28/2023 5:10:24 PM EDT
[#42]
All my efforts with this target have been outdoors.
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Posted: 4/29/2024 8:09:31 PM EDT
[#43]
Any one still playing this game?
Red |
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Posted: 4/30/2024 9:47:16 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By badredfish: Any one still playing this game? Red About 8 of my buddies play it once a month. Just a friendly competition type of activity. Loads of fun |
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USA
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Posted: 4/30/2024 2:33:15 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By badredfish: Any one still playing this game? Red I try to do it every time I get to the range. Unfortunately, range time comes less frequently than I'd like. |
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