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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:02:42 PM EDT
I would like to shoot a Project Appleseed event next year.
I currently have a stainless 10/22 which doesn't shoot what one would consider decent groups even when not using cheap Remington ammo. A friend's 10/22 with a target does shoot nice groups with the right ammo. Groups are a lot better than my standard 10/22 which is making me consider getting another rifle. I'm thinking about getting a CZ 457 based on threads I have read in this forum. That leads to my question. I have a Leupold VX-1 3-9x40 mm scope that I'm not using. Would this scope work on the CZ considering the Appleseed event that I will likely shoot will be conducted on a 25 m range? I've been shooting Service Rifle for a quite a while with iron sights. Haven't shot with a scope much other than on the 10/22. Only used the Leupold one time on my A2 AR and didn't like it so I haven't used it since. Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 7:50:24 PM EDT
[#1]
A stainless bull barrel and a new inexspencive stock for your 10/22 would be your best route.
Why keep around a gun your not happy with. There is no question a 10/22 can be a tack driver, you just got to make it one. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 8:05:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Keep the scope at the 3x setting and it should be fine.
You'll be a bit handicapped with the bolt gun during the stages with timed shooting. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:15:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By deerranger: A stainless bull barrel and a new inexspencive stock for your 10/22 would be your best route. Why keep around a gun your not happy with. There is no question a 10/22 can be a tack driver, you just got to make it one. I will look into that. Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:18:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By intheburbs: Keep the scope at the 3x setting and it should be fine. You'll be a bit handicapped with the bolt gun during the stages with timed shooting. I haven't looked to see the specifics on the stages but I haven't had a saved round with my 03A3 in quite a while. Thanks for the info on the scope. I have a cheap Bushnell 3-9 on the 10/22 already. I'll see what I can come up with for a barrel and stock. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:31:17 PM EDT
[#5]
I just put a Williams 52 FP rear sight on my CZ 452 American with every intention of using it in an Appleseed shoot next spring. I'm hopeful the rear sight will prove up to the task, if not I've a couple of 4x scopes I can mount on it.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:05:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 57plymouth]
[#6]
If you have never been to an Appleseed before, I would not try to start out with a bolt rifle.
The stages of the AQT are timed. While stage 4 gives you 5 luxurious minutes for 10 rounds, stages 1, 2, and 3 are shorter. Stages 2 and 3 are less than a minute. You start standing, transition to sitting or prone, load, fire 2, change magazines, fire 8 on either 2 or 3 targets respectively. In under 60 seconds, that is a crunch and it took me 4 or 5 attempts to even fire all 10 rounds in time never mind hitting the target accurately. With a bolt action you will be in a bigger rush. I am a strong believer in the 10/22 for a first Appleseed. I would look at what's up with that rifle before I went to a different one. I tried 8 or 9 different brands of commonly available ammo off the shelves in my local gun shops and found the brand my rifle likes the best. Try buying one box of everything you can locally find and shoot it from a bench rest to see if the ammo is the issue. The variation from CCI SV (which is what my rifle likes) to Winchester was significant. Then if you still have large groups from a bench rest I would look at replacing the barrel. A very good barrel will still cost less than another rifle. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:20:41 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By intheburbs: Keep the scope at the 3x setting and it should be fine. You'll be a bit handicapped with the bolt gun during the stages with timed shooting. A bit? |
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USA
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Posted: 11/20/2022 2:13:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#8]
Find an object (target) that is slightly less than your "25 m" distance. <-- Or is Appleseed actually 25 yards?
Be sure the scope can focus on that object (target) when set to the intended magnification. If you use a target, be sure you can see the scoping rings and read the numbers. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:05:12 PM EDT
[#9]
I wouldn’t take a 10/22 because you have to make sure the tension of the action screw is consistently torqued. I like designs that don’t rely on that. However to be totally fair so long as you torque the screw down consistently it should be fine.
It shifts a little bit due to the stock touching the barrel and say you have 17lbs of force and then have 27lbs of force that will have an angle change from the pressure on the barrel. I don’t know the correct torque spec but its an undesirable feature for a gun requiring accuracy. It’s an accurate gun but not a consistent gun if you don’t follow procedures for disassembly and reassembly. Personally I like an 22 AR with a free floated hand guard and a match grade trigger for an accurate gun that can shoot quickly if it’s a timed challenge. |
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Posted: 11/21/2022 8:35:50 PM EDT
[#10]
Thanks for the input, guys.
I just tightened the barrel band screw a little (maybe a 1/4 turn) and the action screw maybe an 1/8 of a turn. Hopefully in the next couple of days I can find some 22 ammo either at BassPro and/or Dunhams and then see how the gun shoots. Also hoping that I get amazingly small groups because the Green Mountain barrel that I was looking at is out of stock everywhere. I'll let you know what happens. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 7:10:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Shot the 10/22 today.
For background, this is my target for the reloads I am using for my AR. White Oaks upper, Rock River lower, iron sights, sand bag used for a front rest, 100 yards:  Attached FileI shot that maybe 10 years ago so, at least at one point in time, I could shoot small groups. Now for the 10/22. Target was about 25 yards away, temp was low 50s, I used my tool box and a towel as a front rest. Scope was set to about 4.5x. Much more and the target was too blurry to see. First target:  Attached FileSecond target:  Attached FileThird target:  Attached FileFourth target:  Attached FileContinued in next post... |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 7:17:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raffi383]
[#12]
Fifth target:
 Attached FileSixth and seventh both with CCI:  Attached File Attached FileTypically 10 shots per target. Sometimes if a round didn't fire, I didn't replace it. I did make an elevation adjustment before the 5th group for the first target and a couple of windage adjustments with the CCI. I didn't clean the rifle at all between groups. Not really happy with any of the results although the last two CCI groups aren't too terrible. I think I took more time shooting them. Let me know what you think. Should a stainless 10/22 shoot better than this or is this what I should expect? A magazine change during an Appleseed stage is not going to be pretty. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 7:29:57 PM EDT
[#13]
None of the ammo you've shot is known for stellar accuracy. I would give CCI std velocity a try.
My old 10/22 shoots better than that, but its no tack driver. You know you can drop a new barrel in that'll do wonders. It's worth the $200 (tacsol for example). If you want to help on mag changes, get the kidd trigger group with extended mag release. It's pricey, but by far the best single stage you can put in a 10/22. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 7:40:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Thanks for the info. I had the Remington and Federal ammo. The other stuff was all BassPro had yesterday.
I'll order some different types to try. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:44:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FighterFixer1]
[#15]
I shot a 232 and a 236 with a bone stock 10/22 carbine and a crappy 3 MOA red dot sight. I earned my Distinguished patch with another 10/22......too much to list, but it's 'built'---but the fact is, I could have done 240+ with the basic rifle if it had a better optic. (a 3 MOA dot almost completely obscures the smallest targets on an AQT)
@Rob78 is right--none of the ammo you listed shoots worth dammit in any of my guns. Try some CCI Standard Velocity or Norma TAC (black box). Those two run better than any other bulk ammo in all of my rimfires. As for the magazine changes, there are mag swaps in stages 2 and 3. I had trouble with them until I started using BX15 mags. They're longer than the factory 10rd mags so you can get a grip on them--but they don't get in the way like the BX25s do in prone. You said that your target gets blurry above 4.5x? That's because it has fixed parallax set at 100 yards. There's plenty of options out there that will let you focus as close as 10 yards and won't break the bank. (check the Appleseed store for their package deals). I prefer 4x for standing and sitting, 10x for prone. **I don't recommend a heavy barrel for Appleseed. The rifle is gonna feel like it weighs a TON during the standing stages. My built up rig used to have a heavy stainless.....it got swapped for a VQ carbon fiber immediately after the first Appleseed I shot with it. If I was setting up your rifle, the only things I'd do is try some decent ammo, replace the scope and get a cheap GI sling. When you get to the Appleseed, they're going to teach you what you need to know, so bring a teachable attitude. This kind of shooting is a lot different than sitting at a bench or shooting off rests. Have fun! |
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Posted: 11/24/2022 11:06:48 PM EDT
[#16]
I've been looking at ammo.
 Attached FileOut of all the above choices, you guys can suggest which I should buy. The three options from Natchez? The three $9-10 choices from Midway? I would prefer to not pay $22 per box of 50. Gets kind of expensive if Appleseed uses 400 rounds. I did order 12 boxes of NORMA 22LR TAC-22 40GR LRN 50RD BOX since PSA had it on sale for 3.99/box. I think the regular price was 11.99/box. I'll look at the trigger with the extended mag release. I will also look at the BX15 mags for the extra length. The scope on the rifle is a Bushnell. I had previously asked about using the Leupold but I didn't put it on. I did look at the Appleseed store and they have the 2-7x Vortex scope and mounting parts for $165. The scope has parallax adjustments. https://store.rwvaappleseed.com/scopes.html I'm used to a heavy barrel on my service rifle but I won't look into changing the barrel on the 10/22 any further until after I try more ammo. I have a few GI slings. Any suggestions for a sling swivel? There is nothing on the rifle currently. Can't think of anything else right now. Thanks for all of the input. Happy Thanksgiving. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2022 12:26:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: chocolateisyummy2]
[#17]
I have a CZ 455 that I put a Lilja barrel on and it’s a tack driver. My experience has been the more expensive ammo like the Lapua ammo shoots best. The wolf match extra isn’t bad but it does have more flyers. I would think you might have issues with the bolt cycling on a 10/22 with most match ammo because it’s subsonic. Lapua Center X has been the most accurate 22 ammo I’ve tried but it’s not cheap. SK Standard Plus performs a little better than wolf match or wolf match extra in my gun.
I do think you’ll get better accuracy with a CZ 457 over a 10/22. This is the accuracy I get with my CZ 455 This was at 25 or 50 yards I can’t remember but all 5 round groups  This is at 100 yards  |
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Posted: 11/25/2022 7:43:13 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raffi383: I've been looking at ammo. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/67686/Ammo_options_jpg-2612677.JPG Out of all the above choices, you guys can suggest which I should buy. The three options from Natchez? The three $9-10 choices from Midway? I would prefer to not pay $22 per box of 50. Gets kind of expensive if Appleseed uses 400 rounds. I did order 12 boxes of NORMA 22LR TAC-22 40GR LRN 50RD BOX since PSA had it on sale for 3.99/box. I think the regular price was 11.99/box. I'll look at the trigger with the extended mag release. I will also look at the BX15 mags for the extra length. The scope on the rifle is a Bushnell. I had previously asked about using the Leupold but I didn't put it on. I did look at the Appleseed store and they have the 2-7x Vortex scope and mounting parts for $165. The scope has parallax adjustments. https://store.rwvaappleseed.com/scopes.html I'm used to a heavy barrel on my service rifle but I won't look into changing the barrel on the 10/22 any further until after I try more ammo. I have a few GI slings. Any suggestions for a sling swivel? There is nothing on the rifle currently. Can't think of anything else right now. Thanks for all of the input. Happy Thanksgiving. Ammo- CCI standard velocity: this is the 69gr SMK analog of 22LR ammo. It generally shoots decent in most barrels. I highly suggest trying this prior to buying pricier options. As for barrel weight and/or target barrels; many nice 10/22 barrels are sleeved. Either a large diameter aluminum or carbon fiber outer barrel is paired with a steel barrel liner. You get rigidity and lighter weight. Good luck. I think you'll be just fine. |
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Posted: 11/25/2022 8:28:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 57plymouth]
[#19]
My stock 10/22 rifle likes CCI Standard Velocity. I've shot a best score of 236 at Appleseed with that combination. That's with the stock trigger and the magazine release that comes on the current production rifles. The second best ammo in my rifle is Norma TAC. FighterFixer1 likes the Norma TAC in his rifle, but I think that has more to do with the waxy coating on the CCI.
You can't go wrong with either CCI Standard Velocity or Norma TAC. Either one will be more than sufficient for the distance you will be shooting at Appleseed. I would not change your scope. Run what you have for now. My first Rifleman score came from a broken Viridian scope, so your Bushnell should be fine. Sling swivels are simple like these from Amazon or the ones they sell on the Appleseed Store. Just be sure they fit a 1.5 inch sling. You will want to use your GI sling. That is what they teach the course around, and it works fine. If you don't have one you can get one from the Appleseed store, or the cheapest one I can find online is from CMP. |
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Posted: 11/25/2022 9:52:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FighterFixer1]
[#20]
In all of my rimfires, the Norma 40gr and the CCI SV 40gr run well and are plenty accurate enough to get the job done. You don't need match grade ammo for an Appleseed--the smallest target is 4 MOA.
Something I noticed on your ammo list: Most of it (if not all) is high velocity. All of my rifles shoot standard velocity much more accurately than the high velocity stuff. That also applies to the cheap bulk stuff. Blazer 40gr at 1050 fps shoots almost as accurately as CCI SV in my dedicated Appleseed 10/22 but I always seem to get a few dud primers and unexplained fliers in every box. The Norma and CCI run better--more consistent and fewer malfunctions. They're also close in price to the cheap bulk stuff. (BTW, the PSA price you got was $1/box cheaper than I've been paying for Norma. I've been buying a few bricks/month directly from Norma and CCI. Usually $49.99/brick and free shipping on orders $150+) Every rimfire seems to have particular ammo preferences, but this is what Norma TAC will do with my built 10/22--and it shoots slightly better in my B14R. This is right around .75-1 MOA at 25 yards. The dots I shot multiple times were either me screwing up or those weird inconsistencies that pretty much all but the very best ($$$) .22 rimfire ammo have.  Attached FileAs for sling swivels--Uncle Mike is fine. If your rifle doesn't already have a stud on the forend, drill a hole and install one with a nut. *Be sure to countersink the hole and trim the threaded part so it doesn't touch the barrel. In my opinion, the barrel band attachment isn't strong enough to properly sling up. I will say that the Magpul quick detach clips are a useful addition. This was a recommendation from 57plymouth. I didn't use them until my 3rd Appleseed. As often as you're going to be hooking up and moving the sling around, they're worth the money.  Attached FileETA: Norma is having a big sale. $3.48 for 40gr TAC and 40gr subsonic. They also have their match stuff on sale for $4.64/box--but in my experience, the TAC actually shoots better. (I just bought 4 more bricks) Norma sale |
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Posted: 11/25/2022 11:42:53 AM EDT
[#21]
Ct precision can work wonders on your stock barrel, I’d recommend the full tuneup.
For a lightweight rimfire the leupold 3-9x33 efr mounted in an egw cantilever rail(moa is your preference but I stick with the 0 moa) I use sporter stocks but the standard stock works fine, my recommendation for the standard stock would be to dremel out the top portion of the barrel band so there is a hollow space that doesn’t touch the barrel or remove the band entirely. Then aluminum tape bed the receiver to the stock |
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Posted: 11/25/2022 5:05:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Just ordered some CCI standard velocity ammo and two BX15 mags from Natchez.
Ordered the extended magazine releases from Kidd. Ordered the sling swivels from GrovTec. Hopefully at this point I will be all set. We'll see how the CCI and Norma ammo work out. It would be nice to not have to replace the barrel too. I'll post an update with targets after I try the new ammo. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 12:08:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#23]
Way back, when I opted for Wolf Match Extra as my baseline ammo, I made the selection based upon the trade off of accuracy and cost.
I honed in on Wolf and several others based upon group size results from a book (whose name and author I no longer recall off the top of my head). I still have the book out in my reloading area. I ended up buying a 100 rounds of several types and shot them for accuracy. Wolf proved to be more than good enough, whereas, the performance of CCI Standard Velocity and Green Tag was disappointing. Unlike the current production ammo Match Extra made by Eley, the Wolf Match Extra I have was made by SK. The cases I bought have served me well for a long time. That service included distances from 50 feet to 100 yards and included matches out at 200 yards. Lapua Center-X is likely more accurate but it is (and was) definitely more expensive. Can you and your rifle extract that accuracy or will the accuracy be offset by other inaccuracies in you, your scope and rifle? OP has to decide whether he wants top accuracy from the ammo and pay top dollar, or whether a slightly larger group size is good enough for his purposes, given that it is 1/3 the price of Center-X. The final point, premium ammo like Center-X has been hard to find. It has been easier to find Wolf Match Extra. Look around to see what's available, what it costs and how accurate it is likely to be. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 9:08:21 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Way back, when I opted for Wolf Match Extra as my baseline ammo, I made the selection based upon the trade off of accuracy and cost. I honed in on Wolf and several others based upon group size results from a book (whose name and author I no longer recall off the top of my head). I still have the book out in my reloading area. I ended up buying a 100 rounds of several types and shot them for accuracy. Wolf proved to be more than good enough, whereas, the performance of CCI Standard Velocity and Green Tag was disappointing. Unlike the current production ammo Match Extra made by Eley, the Wolf Match Extra I have was made by SK. The cases I bought have served me well for a long time. That service included distances from 50 feet to 100 yards and included matches out at 200 yards. Lapua Center-X is likely more accurate but it is (and was) definitely more expensive. Can you and your rifle extract that accuracy or will the accuracy be offset by other inaccuracies in you, your scope and rifle? OP has to decide whether he wants top accuracy from the ammo and pay top dollar, or whether a slightly larger group size is good enough for his purposes, given that it is 1/3 the price of Center-X. The final point, premium ammo like Center-X has been hard to find. It has been easier to find Wolf Match Extra. Look around to see what's available, what it costs and how accurate it is likely to be. Thanks for the info. I decided to go with the cheaper option. We'll see how it works out. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 5:44:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raffi383: Thanks for the info. I decided to go with the cheaper option. We'll see how it works out. That is the point, really, isn't it - try it out and see if it works for YOU. Ideally, it is an accuracy-cost decision. It might also be an availability-cost-accuracy decision. Heck, I used to shoot Winchester T-22 and was totally happy with it. They just don't make that product any longer. It was standard velocity and cost $15/500 cartridges (3 cents a pop). |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 10:41:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By raffi383: I would like to shoot a Project Appleseed event next year. I currently have a stainless 10/22 which doesn't shoot what one would consider decent groups even when not using cheap Remington ammo. A friend's 10/22 with a target does shoot nice groups with the right ammo. Groups are a lot better than my standard 10/22 which is making me consider getting another rifle. I'm thinking about getting a CZ 457 based on threads I have read in this forum. That leads to my question. I have a Leupold VX-1 3-9x40 mm scope that I'm not using. Would this scope work on the CZ considering the Appleseed event that I will likely shoot will be conducted on a 25 m range? I've been shooting Service Rifle for a quite a while with iron sights. Haven't shot with a scope much other than on the 10/22. Only used the Leupold one time on my A2 AR and didn't like it so I haven't used it since. Thanks. Wife and I shot one this yr in early June. N/E Ohio Wear a hat, wear long sleeves, get elbow pads, range mat, with small cheap blue tarp for underneath range mat in case it rains. white towel, bring a pop-up canopy to share with others for rain or sun, fold up chair. water After Christmas discipline yourself to the treadmill 2-3 miles a day, maybe some durpees everyday too. drop that extra 20lbs, being able to breath is key. Practice the 3 positions weekly, with walkers or plugs Take a friend, have fun |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 9:29:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SmilinEd: Wife and I shot one this yr in early June. N/E Ohio Wear a hat, wear long sleeves, get elbow pads, range mat, with small cheap blue tarp for underneath range mat in case it rains. white towel, bring a pop-up canopy to share with others for rain or sun, fold up chair. water After Christmas discipline yourself to the treadmill 2-3 miles a day, maybe some durpees everyday too. drop that extra 20lbs, being able to breath is key. Practice the 3 positions weekly, with walkers or plugs Take a friend, have fun @SmilinEd, I was planning on using the coat and mat I use for service rifle. My boss wants to do this too and maybe his brother. No treadmill but I ride my bike in the basement for 45 minutes about 5 times a week when it is too cold to ride outside. Thanks for the suggestions for what to bring. Didn't think of the canopy. |
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Posted: 11/27/2022 5:38:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raffi383: @SmilinEd, I was planning on using the coat and mat I use for service rifle. My boss wants to do this too and maybe his brother. No treadmill but I ride my bike in the basement for 45 minutes about 5 times a week when it is too cold to ride outside. Thanks for the suggestions for what to bring. Didn't think of the canopy. Good deal, my wife and I are planning on doing next yrs event we will spend moar prep/training time going into next yr I will make some adjustments with scopes and ammo just to tighten things up a bit |
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Posted: 11/30/2022 9:18:10 AM EDT
[#29]
@raffi383
Any updates? |
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Posted: 11/30/2022 11:06:11 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FighterFixer1: @raffi383 Any updates? Not yet. Still waiting for the ammo to show up. I'll be sure to post updated target pics. This won't become a safe thread. I promise. |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 4:07:35 PM EDT
[#31]
Norma TAC and CCI SV ammo came this week (600 rounds of each), and since I had a vacation day today, off to the range I went.
Everything was shot at 25 yards. I shot the Norma first. Lots of failures to eject. However, it did shoot better than the ammo I tried previously. Each target is 10 shots.  Attached FileNext, I shot the CCI SV. It had the best results out of all the ammo I have tried. The high shot in target #9 was definitely me. The other fliers may have been too. Not sure. I did shoot a little slower on some of the better targets.  Attached FileOne thing I noticed was that I was seeing a double target through the scope. I don't remember this from last week. I'm wondering if it is due to the prescription safety glasses I was wearing. I did wear them last week too. I didn't think about until after I left but I should have just put on a pair of regular safety glasses. I'll have to set up a target in the back yard and see what happens with nonprescription glasses. What do you guys think of the results? Will the CCI SV be good enough for Appleseed? |
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USA
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Posted: 12/3/2022 2:00:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#32]
Please do not take this the wrong way, I'm trying to answer your question and trying to help.
Get your hands on a 50 round box of Tenex and try that to see if your groups are shooter limited (my guess) or ammo quality limited. Be sure your scope's ocular and parallax are correctly adjusted your your vision on the day you plan to test. If you have a friend who is a known-good shooter, recruit them as an "experimental control". Ask them about your rifle and the ammo compared to what they normally shoot. |
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Posted: 12/3/2022 8:20:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 57plymouth]
[#33]
@raffi383 Those groups are better than most first time Appleseed participants will shoot on Saturday morning.
Is that with your 10/22? Did you shoot off a bench or a rest/bag? Your fail to eject issue may be due to a dirty bolt. Give the rifle a good scrubbing and it may clear up. However I stand by my statement that some rifles like a particular brand better. My Appleseed rifle has the exact same grouping characteristics as the rifle you used for these targets with the two brands of ammo that you used. That's why I use CCI SV for that particular rifle. It's not a lot better, but a little bit. Get a GI sling and a set of 1.5" swivels on the rifle and 2 or 3 mags and you will be good. You should take approximately 500 rounds to a 2 day Appleseed event. That's probably more than you will need, but not a lot more. |
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Posted: 12/3/2022 9:25:10 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Please do not take this the wrong way, I'm trying to answer your question and trying to help. Get your hands on a 50 round box of Tenex and try that to see if your groups are shooter limited (my guess) or ammo quality limited. Be sure your scope's ocular and parallax are correctly adjusted your your vision on the day you plan to test. If you have a friend who is a known-good shooter, recruit them as an "experimental control". Ask them about your rifle and the ammo compared to what they normally shoot. I'm not taking any of the suggestions the wrong way. I came here looking for help and you guys are providing it. Thanks. I will look into getting a box of Tenex. Based on what I was seeing through the scope yesterday, I'm thinking the groups would be better with a better shooter. I did send an email to a friend I shoot CMP matches with asking what he thinks. He's a really good shooter and shoots a lot. My scope is a cheap Bushnell. It has a focus adjustment and that's it other than windage and elevation. The manual says to adjust the focus so the cross hairs are focused. I checked that last week. Thanks for the input. |
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Posted: 12/3/2022 9:46:17 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 57plymouth: @raffi383 Those groups are better than most first time Appleseed participants will shoot on Saturday morning. Is that with your 10/22? Did you shoot off a bench or a rest/bag? Your fail to eject issue may be due to a dirty bolt. Give the rifle a good scrubbing and it may clear up. However I stand by my statement that some rifles like a particular brand better. My Appleseed rifle has the exact same grouping characteristics as the rifle you used for these targets with the two brands of ammo that you used. That's why I use CCI SV for that particular rifle. It's not a lot better, but a little bit. Get a GI sling and a set of 1.5" swivels on the rifle and 2 or 3 mags and you will be good. You should take approximately 500 rounds to a 2 day Appleseed event. That's probably more than you will need, but not a lot more. Good to hear about the group sizes. This was my 10/22. I used my toolbox and a towel for the front rest and shot off a bench. As far as cleaning the bolt, is there anything to do other than cleaning all the visible surfaces on the bolt and inside the receiver? Should I take anything apart? I never have in the past. The sling swivels, extended magazine releases, and two 15 round magazines came this week. I gave them all to my wife to wrap them for Christmas presents. Thinking I will like my gifts. I figure that I will use the extended mags for the 2 rounds and the standard mags for the 8 rounds. Thinking this will help with the required mag changes during the rapid fire portions. I already have a couple of extra GI slings from the CMP so I am all set there along with 500 rounds of CCI SV. I appreciate the input. |
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Posted: 12/3/2022 1:40:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 57plymouth]
[#36]
Stop where you are with worrying about accuracy. You are good to go and ready for Appleseed. Don't overthink this any more.
Others are more knowledgeable than I am about disassembly and cleaning of the bolt. I would pull it out and use a good CLP and a tooth brush to scrub it down. Someone with more knowledge can advise you better. Don't worry about your scope until you shoot an Appleseed event. I scored Rifleman the first time with a broken scope. I upgraded mine significantly, but what you have will be a great starting point. Do the opposite on your magazines. Use the shorter magazine for the 2 rounds when you are not pressured and the longer magazine when the clock is running. This probably won't be your last Appleseed. It's addictive to chase after a patch, then Distinguished patch, then a 250 patch, then Known Distance... It just goes on and on. |
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Posted: 12/3/2022 5:42:32 PM EDT
[#37]
@57plymouth,
Thank you. 
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Posted: 12/4/2022 9:36:04 AM EDT
[#38]
I'm with 57Plymouth on your accuracy--you're good to go with your CCI SV groups. Appleseed doesn't require absolute precision and your factory barrel probably won't shoot the $$$ ammo any better than the CCI SV anyway.
I'm a little puzzled about the Norma--most of my guns seem to run better with the oily Norma than with the waxy CCI, but that's the nature of rimfire. What works in my equipment won't necessarily work for you. I'm just happy that you found something better than your previous attempts. Reliable function is every bit as important as accuracy in Appleseeds--you don't have a lot of time to clear malfunctions or swap additional mags. As for cleaning, pull up Youtube. There's plenty of video tutorials. Magazine maintenance is important too. Make sure that you lube everything properly when you reassemble. I'm going to disagree with 57Plymouth on the optic--especially if you're seeing double. Why on earth would you handicap yourself with a scope you can't properly focus? I said it before--you don't need an expensive optic, but you DO need one capable of giving you a clear sight picture at 25m. *If you can focus and see the targets clearly at 25m on low magnification (like 3x) with your current setup, disregard this advice. If you can't, head over to your favorite outdoor store and take a look through a few to see what works for you. |
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Posted: 12/4/2022 11:26:20 AM EDT
[#39]
Scope?
I bought a 2-10 Athlon Helos BTR. It isn't light, but the price is reflective of that. What it does do is offer parallax adjustment down to 10yds with an ocular focus for different eye strengths. I've had zero issues with tracking. The glass is on par with Vortex PST line. The mil reticle allows me to hold for elevation and windage when dialing isn't an option. |
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Posted: 12/4/2022 7:53:58 PM EDT
[#40]
Ammo:
Based on all of the input so far, I will just stick with the CCV SV. Scope: I put a target on the windshield of my Jeep and moved it 25 yards away from the back of the garage and looked at it again with the Bushnell scope that is currently on the rifle. I still saw the double target both with and without my prescription safety glasses. I looked at the Appleseed store ( https://store.rwvaappleseed.com/scopes.html) and the scope they show there does not have a parallax adjustment so I'm not sure what the advantage would be with that scope. The parallax for that scope is set at 100 yards. About 4:30 this afternoon (sunset is at 5:00) I grabbed a target and stapled it to a tree in the front yard. I then took the rifle and the Leupold VX-1 3-9 scope that I have and looked at the target from the living room. I didn't think it was a good idea to stand out in front of the house in a subdivision pointing a rifle towards the neighbor's house. I was wearing my regular glasses and I didn't notice the double target. I'm going to have to try this again tomorrow when it is lighter outside and also try it again with safety glasses. The visibility with the Leupold was a lot brighter than with the Bushnell. I think I paid around $30-40 for the Bushnell scope 20 yrs ago. The Leupold was around $200 10-15 yrs ago. Maybe you get what you pay for. I'm going to keep playing around with this to see if I can figure out the cause of the double image. Hopefully it is just me doing something wrong. I haven't shot with a scope much. I only use iron sights for service rife. @rob78: I don't think I want to spend that much on a scope. Thanks for the suggestion though. @57plymouth, @FighterFixer1, and everyone else: Thanks for all the input. |
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Posted: 12/5/2022 8:46:21 AM EDT
[#41]
I am currently using This Vortex Scope on my Appleseed rifle. It's more magnification than you really need for Appleseed. The parallax adjusts down to 10 yards. It's not very expensive.
But if you have a decent Leopold, that's definitely an economical solution. |
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Posted: 12/5/2022 2:07:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#42]
Parallax does not cause double images.
Parallax adjustments will not get rid of double images. Focus the scope's ocular such that the reticle is crisp and clear. Without a parallax adjustment, the target (at the intended range) must also be crisp and clear. Many scopes do not work well at short distances. If either of those cannot be achieved or if the target is out of focus (even a little bit fuzzy), and if you have a double image then, you need a different scope. |
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Posted: 12/5/2022 4:49:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Well I played with the scopes some more today both with prescription glasses and without any glasses and never saw any double targets. Maybe I was straining my neck too much when I was shooting and I was cutting off blood flow to my brain. That could explain lots of things, right?
Since the image through the Leuplod is a lot nicer than the Bushnell, I swapped the scopes. The targets at 25 yards or so are still not nice and crisp but they are good enough to work with. Just center the cross hairs in the somewhat fuzzy circles. How hard can it be? Plus, I can say, "It's a Leupold." That should be worth 20 points right there. I'll go shooting again after I get and install my Christmas presents. We'll see what happens then. |
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Posted: 12/5/2022 4:51:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Parallax does not cause double images. Parallax adjustments will not get rid of double images. Focus the scope's ocular such that the reticle is crisp and clear. Without a parallax adjustment, the target (at the intended range) must also be crisp and clear. Many scopes do not work well at short distances. If either of those cannot be achieved or if the target is out of focus (even a little bit fuzzy), and if you have a double image then, you need a different scope. I'm going to hold off on a new scope until after I see how the Leupold works. If I'm not happy with it, I'll get the one 57plymouth posted above. Thanks for the input. |
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Posted: 12/10/2022 10:00:55 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raffi383: I'm going to hold off on a new scope until after I see how the Leupold works. If I'm not happy with it, I'll get the one 57plymouth posted above. Thanks for the input. If you do end up buying a new scope I strongly recommend one with either adjustable objective or side focus. Stopped reading most of the posts a bit in, and one other option vs. rebuilding w/ new parts would be to send your rifle to CPC for a full work over. I'd also try some better ammo but I think that was mentioned as well and beat to death |
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Posted: 12/28/2022 10:22:34 PM EDT
[#46]
 Attached FileQuick update: I took the rifle apart for the first time since I bought it about 20 yrs ago. Lots of baked on carbon inside. Got it pretty clean. Installed the extended magazine release. That was easy. Installed the sling swivels. Front one was a little scary. Was waiting for the stock to split. The two new 15 round mags don't fall out without a little bit of help (shaking the rifle). Going to the range Friday (indoor) with my son. Will shoot pistols and then the 22 a little to make sure I didn't screw anything up and will also get the scope zeroed. There's an Appleseed match pretty close to me at the end of January. Waiting to see what the weather will be like before signing up. Happy New Year |
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Posted: 12/29/2022 9:21:41 AM EDT
[#47]
Try tightening the allen screw on the magazines EVER SO SLIGHTLY. One of the Appleseed instructors in SC is a gunsmith and he said that can help make them drop free. Don't overdo it or the magazine won't feed smoothly.
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Posted: 12/29/2022 9:31:42 AM EDT
[#48]
Thanks. Will try it.
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Posted: 12/29/2022 9:52:37 AM EDT
[#49]
Don't forget to mark your magazines!
It really sucks to be 'in the zone' and then drop Stage 2 or 3 because you started on the wrong mag. It's hard to recover from that--I screwed up my mags more than once before I started marking my 2rd mag with blue tape. |
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Posted: 12/29/2022 9:47:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raffi383: Norma TAC and CCI SV ammo came this week (600 rounds of each), and since I had a vacation day today, off to the range I went. Everything was shot at 25 yards. I shot the Norma first. Lots of failures to eject. However, it did shoot better than the ammo I tried previously. Each target is 10 shots. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/67686/20221202_140105_jpg-2621370.JPG Next, I shot the CCI SV. It had the best results out of all the ammo I have tried. The high shot in target #9 was definitely me. The other fliers may have been too. Not sure. I did shoot a little slower on some of the better targets. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/67686/20221202_140217_jpg-2621378.JPG One thing I noticed was that I was seeing a double target through the scope. I don't remember this from last week. I'm wondering if it is due to the prescription safety glasses I was wearing. I did wear them last week too. I didn't think about until after I left but I should have just put on a pair of regular safety glasses. I'll have to set up a target in the back yard and see what happens with nonprescription glasses. What do you guys think of the results? Will the CCI SV be good enough for Appleseed? Fwiw, friend of mine shot Norma thru his ar15 with the CMMG 22 conversion kit and had many ftf upon some investigation the Norma ammo was smoking hot and over ran the mechanics of the action He ran CCI target I think and everything ran well, no hiccups just my thoughts are a heavy 22 bullet lower speed should give you the accuracy that you need what was the Norma ammo running fps..? |
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