I'm going and taking two grandsons [and more in the future] to Appleseed this year.

We'll be shooting stock Ruger 10/22s with tech sights and gi web slings.  

I'm considering modifying them for improved mag releases and bolt release, so if you want to weigh in on that, opinions would be welcome.  

Since I need to buy ammo anyway, might as well get what would be best for us.  

Figured I'd come and ask the experts.  

Thanks

The stock 10/22 mag release is a bit fiddly, so that change makes sense. Plus, it’s reversible. The bolt release is also a common adaptation. As long as it doesn’t complicate locking the bolt back I don’t see any harm.

I used CCI standard velocity at Appleseed. My gun shoots it well and it’s reliable. The main concern should be reliably. The fewer hangups and stoppages the better. Make sure you test your ammo well before going.

An extended magazine release is a good idea, less time looking for it, also a modified bolt release for the same reason.  

A GI sling will work, I found it took too much time to unsling, so I'm going with a Vickers Blue force sling so it can be pulled open with one hand.  

A lot of the timed shooting is 2 rounds, change magazine then 8 rounds, so take one magazine and spray paint the bottom with a bright color to eliminate any confusion when reaching for it.

You can get clear mags for the 10/22. Makes it easy to see how they’re loaded.

As Bladeswitcher said, reliability is key at Appleseed.  The 25m seeds generally shoot 400+ on day 2 and the rifle needs to run 100%.  If you can get thru a brick of CCI Standard w/o issue, that works fine.  I've seen guys make Distinguished at RimfireKD 100y using a 10/22 and minimags.  The minimags are plenty accurate and the extra oopmh may be what it takes to keep a dirty rifle running.

@CPTmorgan

I need to be educated.  

What is the difference between CCI Standard and minimags?  

Also, is RimfireKD a type of Appleseed event?  

Thanks

Thanks for responses everyone.  

looking at websites I've seen LRN, CPRN, CPHP which I assume means lead round nose, copper round nose, copper hollow point?  

Also, one site ,bulkammo.com, offered Blazer 'by CCI'.  Is it any good?  

Does it matter if the bullet is 36g v 40g?  

Am I asking the right questions and is this the right place to be asking them on ARF.com?  

Thanks

This may not be a common or popular opinion, but it’s my belief you’re just as likely to get failures from running too hot of ammo than you are running mild stuff. I do have one semi-auto .22 that requires mini/mags to run, but my 10/22s do just fine with standard velocity.

No one can tell you what ammo is going to run right in your gun. Every .22 is somewhat unique. It would behoove you to do some testing and run s few hundred rounds of a particular ammo through YOUR gun before heading to Appleseed.

But, no, there’s no reason to shoot hollow points. A 40 gr lead bullet is a good starting point. I wouldn’t use Blaser (bulk-pack economy stuff).

Attached File



10/22 rocks for Appleseeds.  There's really no reason to go wild on a build--right out of the box, the 10/22 will work, but here's what worked for me.

Good sling.  I like my Magpul MS1 better than the cotton GI.  Whatever sling you use, a set of quick disconnect attachments makes life easier.  Once you're set up for prone, you can unclip and leave the sling on your arm rather than try to adjust it for the stage.

Tandemkross bolt catch--not 100% necessary, but it makes it a lot easier to lock the bolt back and release.  The little factory nub is hard to manipulate.

Extended mag release.  I prefer the long lever.

Magazines need to be 100%.  I prefer the BX15 because they're long enough to grip and not so long that they get in the way in prone. I use a piece of blue painters tape to mark my 2 round mags.  Bring extra mags.  You need a minimum of 2 (per gun) but have back-ups.

I have to run optics because my old eyes can't see the sights anymore. I use a cheap Amazon stock pack with a little padding to build up the comb height.  Even if you don't need the height, some shooters like a soft pad on the stock for comfort.  An old mouse pad and a hot glue gun works great for this.

I run either Norma TAC or CCI SV.  Any ammo will work as long as it's reliable in your guns. There's absolutely no need to buy Eley/RWS/Tenex for Appleseed....at 25 meters, reliability is more important than supreme accuracy--4 MOA is all that's required.  (I stick with the Norma or CCI because I get too many duds with Blazer)


The #1 thing you need to bring is a teachable attitude.  I learned more about practical shooting at my first Appleseed than I learned in more than 40 years of shooting.


ETA:  How old are your grandchildren?  If they're younger, they may have difficulty with irons--you might want to consider a RDS.  I earned my first patch with a cheap TRS25 and even that coarse 3 MOA dot worked very well for this application.


@57Plymouth (one of our resident Orange Hats) Tap in!

https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/appleseed.267/

CCI Standard Velocity is LRN Lead Round Nose 40g at about 1050fps.  Great ammo.  CCI MiniMag 40g CPRN copper-plated round nose at about 1230fps also great ammo.  Both will hold a group to 50yards and CCI Standard might hold a group at 100y depending on the rifle.

I would stick to 40g solid bullets and pass on the 36g hollow points, they don't usually feed as well.
I would pass on the Blazer as well, its a 40g solid lead but 1200+ fps and may lead up your barrel and require cleaning, the standard velocity ammo keeps the barrel clean.

Most Appleseeds are 25m events but they also offer a 100y Rimfire Known Distance and a 200y Rimfire KD, plus a 400y Centerfire KD and the Pistol PQT.  All are great training, great folks and will generally improve your rifle & pistol shooting.

jsut be sure you have ALL the same ammo, could not figure out why he got good groups once then terriable groups next round.
turns out he was barrowing his neighbors ammo sometimes and it woudl throw his sites off, then his ammo...

@FighterFixer1

Grandkids:  19 and the other 21

Ah.  I was wondering if you were talking about 6-8 y/o.  They shouldn't have any trouble (unless their eyesight isn't great--if anyone has trouble seeing the front sight, a RDS works pretty good)


Good on you for taking them--hope y'all have a great time!

FighterFixer, can you share a pic of your sling setup?  I am thinking about doing a local Appleseed this march.

Have you done one before? If not, get a GI sling.

They are like $15 and when you are being taught different positions you'll have the exact same equipment they are teaching you about.

I have not done one before. I can borrow a canvas GI sling off of my M1 if that is the best way to learn.

Better check into it quickly.

We have 3 in the St Louis area, April is filled, July is 3/4 filled and Sept is > 1/2 filled

@PalmettoState

I recently moved the MS1 over to a precision rifle and it's not in the same config now--but I had it set up the same way the GI sling is set up.  I just like the wider strap and I think the nylon moves through the buckles easier.  (the nylon sliding through through the buckles is good when you're getting set up......and it's bad when it slips from putting too much pressure on it)


I have my old cotton GI sling back on my Appleseed rifle--the only thing I've done differently is to put a set of Magpul quick disconnect clips on it.  The Uncle Mike sling swivels are QD-ish, but the clips are faster

Attached File





ETA:  And I agree with XavierBK.  If it's your first Appleseed, stick with the equipment that they recommend and what they're teaching.

Thanks for the tag @FighterFixer1.  I've been slacking on the forum lately.

I agree with everything Fighter said.  

My Appleseed rifle is box stock with a scope.  I use a GI sling, and the course is taught around it.  They are very cheap and I use the Magpul Paraclip at the front of the rifle. If you look at the photos at the link to the rifle at Sportsman's Warehouse you can see the magazine release that Ruger is currently using.  That is what I'm using.  I also have the stock bolt catch.  The long lever magazine release and the auto bolt catch are both nice, but not essential.  The current magazine release hangs down different than the original flat style that really is annoying.  

Norma TAC and CCI Standard Velocity seem to be the most popular ammo to use.  My rifle likes CCI better, and Fighter likes the Norma.  Either will be plenty accurate.

A shooting mat is nice, but you can make do with a large beach towel or a camping sleeping pad.  Elbow pads however are a must as your elbows will be on fire by the end of the first day without them.  I use the cheapest ones I could find and they lasted 3 events and a lot of backyard shooting before I finally wore out the padding.

After the Viridian scope that came on my rifle died, I put on this Vortex which is way more scope than you will ever need for Appleseed.  It does have adjustable parrallax which is very nice. A more simple but decent option will also work fine.  The Tech Sights are good and they are probably the best iron sights to use on a 10/22 for Appleseed, an optic will remove a lot of frustration for your first event.   I STRONGLY suggest running a scope for your first Appleseed.  Learn the basics before you go to the iron sights.  Trust me when I tell you from experience that irons are much more challenging at Appleseed than it appears.  

The absolute most important thing to take to Appleseed is an open mind willing to learn. The first round of shots called a Redcoat will often humble the most experienced shooter at the first event.  The instructors genuinely want you to learn how to be better.  No matter how much experience, or inexperience, you bring they want you to improve.

Thanks all!

You guys are the best!

Don't stop sharing now.  

It is also worth reading Appleseed's how to prepare and the appropriate state page on the Appleseed forum.

Thanks for the info and the how to prep links folks, I have a shooting mat but had not thought about bringing elbow pads, those normally stay with my 3 gun stuff.  The tandenkross bolt catch is ordered, this place is awesome for info.

Ammo was my downfall. I think I missed the patch by a handful of points. I was having so many issues with my rifle that one of the instructors loaned me his. I continued to have issues so it definitely wasn't the gear. I spent so much time fucking around trying to get a shot of that I'd run out of time. They even gave me the opportunity to shoot a series solo. I was so pissed that I almost just walked away.

Make sure everything is working, feeding flawlessly.

@57plymouth

Can you expand a bit more about the magpul paraclip?  How does it work.  I followed the link to amazon but there is only one picture there and little explanation.  Tried to find out more about it on youtube but no joy.  

Thanks

it's the same clip in the pic above.  Squeeze to release.  It makes it easier to hook up and adjust quickly.  You're going to be moving your sling around a lot as you go from standing to prone, and when you start shooting AQTs, you don't get a lot of prep time between stages.

If you've ever locked back the bolt on a 10/22 with the factory setup, you'll understand why I like these so much--I can pull the bolt back and lock it with one hand and I don't even have to look at it or fumble around.

The Tandemkross Bolt Keeper makes it a little more difficult to tear down if you use the supplied knob--if you leave the knob off, you don't have to remove anything to pull the barreled action out of the stock, and it's still a helluvalot easier to manipulate than the factory unit.

Attached File


I liked the Tk part so much, I started looking for one that would fit my other 10/22.  Unfortunately, Tk doesn't make one that fits my Timney trigger...and neither does Timney .....That's the only negative thing I have to say about the Timney Calvin Elite.  

......so I fired up the TIG and made one myself.  It ain't the prettiest, but it works exactly the same as the Tk.  


Attached File

Right.  You thread the sling through the Paraclip just like a regular quick attach swivel (Uncle Mikes or whatever brand you like).  You will still need a regular swivel on the front of your rifle.  Then you just hook the Paraclip onto the regular swivel.  It has a locking feature if you fear that it could come unhooked.  I use it on my GI sling so I can use one sling on my Appleseed rifle and three ARs without changing anything.  You still use the standard J hook on the back of the GI sling to attach to the butt stock.

Thanks again guys.....

Off to buy more 10/22 trinkets  

I encourage you to use magazines that drop free once you push the mag release. 10/22 mags can be finicky and not all of mine drop free and have to be pulled out.

Using mags that drop free saved time and stress on the range

Thanks @DSB

Do you have any tricks to make them not stick or aftermarket mags to recommend?  

I don’t have any tricks. I have 20+ Ruger 10rd magazines and just test them. Each of my 10/22 is a little different so I test each gun and mag before I go.

Do the auto bolt release mod yourself.

I prefer a under the trigger guard lever mag release.  Unfortunately, the only ones that actually fit the curve of the trigger guard were on ebay forever ago (I have one left...) and the expensive Kidd offering.  If you are a McBendy, you could do your own using a long handle ice tea spoon or similar.

There are a couple of places like gunbot that gives a summary of ammo that is out there.

Is there a similar site that does that for arms and accessories?  

Thanks

I want to attend my first one this year (been wanting to for a decade or better). Sounds like you are very knowledgable about them.

I have been shooting since I was 12 or so (now 40) no pro training or comps, just sort of self taught and by father. I am a pretty good shot but am most deficient at irons. Would you still recommend a scope? My eyesight is fine.

Also looking for a rifle. I’m kind of a monster at 6’ 7”. Want one that is very basic but able to upgrade the most/ easiest.(I do plan on tricking it out in the future) (Guessing a ruger is that bill?)

I want to make it more difficult/ basic for myself for the challenge and to learn more.  I won’t get frustrated as it is a learning experience and is like what I love about shooting, is a test of myself.

Sorry for the derail op and will make another thread if you wish.
@57plymouth

Heck no apology needed.

Your post is excellent and it'd be great if this became an 'all things' Appleseed.  Kind of surprised there isn't one on arf.com already.

Actually......there is a new Appleseed sub-forum!  It was only created about a week ago.  Its in the Industry forum under Project Appleseed.


Project Appleseed



@Er_Mah_Gerd  Your question was directed at 57Plymouth, but I'll say that my favorite Appleseed rifle is a fairly basic 10/22.  

Being a big guy, you might want to look into an extended butt pad to give it some extra length, but otherwise, a factory 10/22 is already close to a perfect for this application.  If you can see well enough to use irons, that's the route I'd take......but I'm old and feeble, and need my optics.

As a general rule I always recommend a scope for someone's first Appleseed.  It can be like drinking from a firehose and the added frustration of irons can derail your happiness quickly.  

I also believe that a box stock Ruger 10/22 is a great rifle for Appleseed.  @FighterFixer1 is right about that.  He has witnessed me shoot a score of 236 with an absolutely stock 10/22 and I'm nothing special as far as shooting goes.

HOWEVER, I'm going to go against all that is in me to contradict myself.

Your height will make a standard 10/22 feel like a child's rifle when you get in position.  You can add a longer butt plate, build up the comb, or use an aftermarket stock to overcome the small size.  I'm 5'10" and the factory stock is really small for me.  You have plenty of experience, and irons may be a good challenge.

For you, it may be wise to get a dedicated .22 upper for your favorite AR.  Then outfit it with back up irons of your favorite flavor and a detachable scope.  Then you can fit the rifle to your size and still shoot the economical .22.  With a scope fitted to the rifle for Saturday, go through the course and the instruction.  You will likely shoot a qualification on Saturday afternoon.  *IF* you shoot over 210 and qualify as Rifleman with a scope and want a challenge, you can easily remove your scope and shoot Sunday with irons.  There will be a course of sighter squares on Sunday morning unless your instructors are doing something very different than the South Carolina cadre.  That will give you time to be sure you are at zero with the irons and can shoot for qualification with irons.  

If you find that Appleseed is tougher than you thought with irons (which many people do in fact discover) you will still have a rifle with a scope so you can learn and enjoy your experience.  I still have not qualified with irons, but I made everything harder on myself by jumping from a scoped 10/22 and getting cocky by going straight to an AR15 with a carry handle for irons.  During the day I also found that my front sight post was bent, my vision sucks so I need a new lens prescription, and I had a terrible and frustrating time all day.  

Did we mention the new Appleseed section?

Do most people find they need to build up the comb on a 10/22?

I'm taking a 19 yr old and a 21 yr old [first for all of us] to an Appleseed in July.  I have the 10/22s with slings for all of us.  Tech sights for both of them [scope for my 67 yr old eyes] but none of them have built up combs.  Is that Needed?  

All of us are beginner shooters but all of us have shot rifles and pistols in the past.  

Thanks

Comb height is usually more of an issue with scopes.  The center of a scope sits higher than iron sights and unless you've got chipmunk cheeks, you'll probably have difficulty getting a good, repeatable cheek weld.  For those using scopes, it all depends on the shape of your face and the height of your rings.

For most people, adding a cheek riser with irons won't let you get low enough to use the sights.

It's mostly with scopes as Fighter said. I don't have anything on mine, but I have chipmunk cheeks.

If you want to go super low buck, you can roll up a washcloth and rubber band it in place to see if it helps.  I see a lot of pool noodles and pipe insulation taped on top of the stock.  Fighter is dripping with money so he has a fancy-pants pad on his rifle. The instructors will have tape and some sort of padding in their box of tricks.  In South Carolina, the Shoot Boss has several pieces of black pipe insulation ready to help people out.

Yup! I already found that one. (One of the first to post in it!).
Just perusing and found a spot that would have some info on equipment.

I guess what I’m wondering about considering the Ruger 10/22 is will it be accurate/ precise enough to not need upgrading until I want to instead of need to (I realize it probably shoots better than I do out of the box but we can pay for tighter groupings/ less dispersion (hopefully)).

I do like the idea of starting with a scope and falling back to irons if I feel the need for more of a challenge but think I should then upgrade to a flat top picatinny receiver, and a chassis to accommodate my size, then I may be better off building one at that point but sort of defeats the purpose of a challenge w/ a stock rifle?

I have no idea what to expect at an event but don’t wish to look like the guy with the fancy target rifle paying for a patch (so to speak).
If any of this makes sense

I have an HK 416 .22 pistol but I don’t want to use that.

Thank you.

It is now!

A factory stock 10/22 (with a cheap Burris red dot) earned me my first Rifleman patch.  Scores that day were 211, 231, and 232.  

I swapped the stock out to a Victor Co. Titan, swapped the barrel out for a KSA target barrel and the red dot got swapped for a 4-16 scope.  I only got to shoot one AQT because I was moving the next day, but I scored a 236.

Next Appleseed, I used an AR15 M4gery with a 1-4x Viper PST that I hadn't shot in well over 3 years.  Centerfire ammo was harder to find at the time and I only shot 1 AQT, but it scored 223.

I gave my old 10/22 to a new shooter and built an 'ultimate' 10/22.  This one with a KRG Bravo chassis, Volksquarten tensioned carbon fiber barrel, Timney Calvin Elite trigger and a USO 2-12 scope.  I also got another basic 10/22 carbine.  Did minor mods to the trigger, mag release and bolt catch and put a set of Tech Sights on it......that's when I discovered that I absolutely cannot see well enough to use irons anymore...161 was the best I could do so I broke out the 'ultimate' 10/22 for the second day.  236, 241, 242.

I had earned my Distinguished patch, so I loaned my rifle to another shooter who was having the same problems I was with the irons.  He shot my rifle for 2 AQTs and earned his Rifleman that day--I don't recall his score but I think it was mid-220s.

I ditched the Tech Sights (that I can't see) and stuck a 1-6 LPVO on my basic 10/22......other than my B14R, it's become my favorite rimfire.  I haven't even shot the 'ultimate' 10/22 since the last class, but the basic version gets shot at least weekly. I bought a few hundred AQTs from the Appleseed store and I practice in the back yard.  The basic rifle is 100% capable of a perfect score. My best score was 242, so I am only 96.8% capable.  (I tested this theory by shooting an AQT from prone and with a sandbag--250 was easy)

If you have a custom rifle that fits you, it's easier to apply the fundamentals and for the very real mental hurdle, you'll probably have more confidence in your equipment......but please don't listen to the people who say that you 'bought your patch'.  Fundamentals still apply.  A more accurate rifle doesn't mean a damn thing if it's pointed in the wrong direction when the round goes off.

57Plymouth has shot my tricked-out 10/22 and his scores weren't any better than what he's pulled off with his completely stock 10/22.

My Appleseed rifle has no real modifications.  I added sling swivels.  I broke the Viridian scope that came on it so I replaced it with a Vortex.  That is it.  Otherwise it is a box stock Ruger 10/22.  I shoot between 225 and 235 regularly with it using CCI Standard Velocity ammo, and I'm chasing after that 240 distinguished rocker.  

A high dollar bespoke rifle is nice, and it will be more accurate than my entry level rifle.  HOWEVER, at Appleseed you are learning to improve form.  Plus, you are against the clock and the time monkey will eat you alive if you let it.  If your form is bad and you are not performing the fundamentals correctly a $5,000 rifle will not bail you out of a hole. Don't get me wrong, I drool over carbon barrels, Kidd triggers, extended mag levers, auto bolt releases, and everything else.  Left to my own devices I would probably spend $3,000 on a rifle and scope to chase after a ten cent patch that says 250.  I'm that sort of lunatic.

FighterFixer is right.  I've shot his sweet custom rifle.  My unfamiliarity with the trigger got the best of me.  Could I shoot over 240 with that rifle?  I believe I could.  Can I do it with my stock garbage rifle?  I believe I can.  It is not the arrow, it's the archer.

‘Bought a patch’ was a poorly worded statement. But little edges can be bought to cover inconsistencies (fudge room) to some extent depending.

Looking at some of the photos in the patch(?) thread in the forum seems more like high level competition from the hardware some bring. Wow!

Are there any videos showing what to expect at a shoot? I think I may be getting two different ideas of what goes on?
Fundamentals taught but higher intensity?? Not knocking anyone or anything but seems like this may be more than teaching fundamentals? From the rifles people build up and attend multiple times? Is it something that you kind of see the same people at every time you attend? Hit one up when you travel?

Thanks for answering all our questions!

AQT? Appleseed qualifying targets?

I would love to just take a stock rifle and fiddle with it a bit. A little shadetree gunsmithing. Are there certain model rugers that are ‘better’ than others? Between the different models (takedown, carbine, sporter…)

I’m kind of that sort of lunatic too! Hence why I’m on this kick now and having a tough time not ordering everything off the bat.

The typical Appleseed will have 80-90% Ruger 10/22 rifles.  That is easily the most popular rifle there.  You will see a few AR's, a few dedicated. 22 AR's, occasionally a lever or bolt action.   But by far the most popular rifle is the Ruger 10/22. Takedown models are less common.  Most are the basic rifle.

The reason you see people going over and over is because it is cheap, it's fun, and you can chase improving your score.  I went from a best score of 206 at my first event to routinely shooting in the 225 to 235 range.  A perfect score is 250.  Lots of people shoot to chase a perfect score.  Lots to just have a fun weekend of shooting.

AQT stands for Appleseed Qualification Target.  It's a modified version of the Army Qualification Target.

You can go deep down a rabbit hole of modified rifles to participate.   Or you can show up with a stock rifle.  Either way will be fun.  Some people get into challenging themselves to do their absolute best with a stock rifle.  Some want a high end rifle to wring out the best score.  

I want to get a Distinguished score,  then start over with a center fire rifle.  Plus there is a Pistoleer program, and Known Distance where you shoot to 400 yards.  There is more to the project than 25meter events, and many ways to push yourself.

Thank You.

All.

I'm learning so much and enjoying this discussion beyond measure.

I'm a habitual tinkerer.  Researching, shopping and modifying are almost as much fun as shooting to me so I totally get what you're saying.





I often spout off about mods that I've made, but something that I seem to forget is that what works for me, won't always work for anyone else.

I'd recommend going to go to your first Appleseed with a factory rifle. (Sporter or Carbine--personally, I don't trust the take down versions to retain zero)  Run the sights you like--irons or optic as your vision allows--you want whatever you're most comfortable with.  I used a cheap red dot on my first Appleseed and scored in the 230s.  Use a USGI sling.  That's what they teach, and they work very well for this kind of shooting.

You'll figure out pretty quickly what mods you'll want to make for Appleseed shooting--it's very different from bench or precision shooting.   You need to run through an Appleseed to determine what mods are necessary for YOU.


I started my journey trying to build a Do-It-All rifle......I slowly (and expensively) learned that there really is no such thing.  My tricked out 10/22 is the closest I've come.  It's precise, light, and fast....but it doesn't point naturally in standing/unsupported--which happens to be my worst position.  If I could figure out my standing game, I'd already have my 250 tab.  I lose an average of 7-8 points standing and my scores are in the 240s.  (On my first qualifying Distinguished AQT I scored a 241.....I cleaned sitting and prone--I lost all 9 points standing)

Now, I have a precision rig, a fast and lightweight precision rig, and an Appleseed rig.  The B14R will drive tacks, but it's too slow and too heavy for Appleseed.  The custom 10/22 is also a tackdriver.  It's fast, lightweight, but the stock feels awkward to me when standing.  The basic 10/22 is light, fast, and points more naturally in standing......it can't compete with the others from a bench but it's plenty accurate enough for Appleseed.

Attached File

Yeah, standing is my weakness as well. I’ll take a sporter probably and add a Q/D scope with irons. Maybe try to tailor some ammo to it or vise versa. Like the takedown but yeah, I don’t trust them to retain zero.

I watched a couple videos in the forum last night and they were done very well.  

Those are some nice plinkers

The challenging themselves is what draws me to shooting. Constantly trying to put the next bullet through the last hole! Which is a never ending battle!

Anything other than 25m will be a heck of a drive/ stay but maybe in the future as I was franticly looking around for a place that could go some distance.