A lot of what you are saying rings true to me, for sure.

I haven't heard any talk about doing the KISS in a prism scope but it's certainly not the dumbest idea I've ever heard, I'm going to bring it up.

Glad to know we're on similar pages. And FWIW I'm excited to see the next step in your prism scopes.

Reticles are huge IMO. For example, I've bought 3 Nikon scopes so far this year because I really like the open dot BDC reticle they use. If they didn't offer that I would have went with Vortex, the scopes compared pretty damn well in function so the Vortex warranty would have pushed the decision in their favor. You guys are doing great by offering the variety you have so far, that something most other manufacturers aren't doing.

How about a variable prism?

Some of the Chinese optic makers are starting to produce them based on the Wolf PSU prism design instead of the Elcan.

What sorcery is this? Got a link? I have not heard of such an animal. Neither fish nor fowl!

Not really a variable so much as a dual magnification scope similar to the ELCAN 1x/4x in use.
This article has a brief note about the mechanism and how it differs from the ELCAN.

Looking into the new ATN Xsight 4k I had an idea for it that might be applicable to a "variable" prism.

The xsight is basically a camcorder with a tiny computer. They offer it in a 3-14x & 5-20x. The variable magnification is all digital, optically theyre a fixed 3x & 5x. While that scope is budget priced for NV it's still not cheap so picking the right magnification is important. Less important with the 4k over older models due to the increased resolution, but still important.

The idea I had was to have a interchangeable lens system, just like on a DSLR camera. On a prism, if the scope body had a lens mount interface you could go from say a 1x lens to a 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 or whatever. So an example could be that while your rifle sits at home you might have the 1x lens on it for HD, but you want to take it to the range and shoot out to 800 yards so you just quickly swap in a 5x lens and you're good. This would only make sense if you could retain the ruggedness & compactness of the prism scope over a LPVO.

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen this before and I'm sharing it around the office.

Glad to help!

I'll throw out there that if you do something like this my preference would be for 1x/4x, and not 3x or 5x. I honestly don't like either of those nearly as well as 4x.
That's actually one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of your current prism offerings, though I do like my original 4x.

We used to have a 4x prism and we discontinued it, and I know why, but it continues to be a popular scope and they hold their value really well on the used market like the EE.

The prism has some distinct advantages. Ours is probably the most bomb-proof sub-$300 scope on the market. They are small and light, with forgiving exit pupils and eyeboxes. But the knock on them is that they are inflexible. Not as good as 1x up close, not as good as 6x from a distance.

This concept alleviates some of that, but when I saw the price of that scope my heart sank a bit. $750 is brand new Trijicon Accupower territory. I know for a FACT that the Trijicon is a 1-4x that doesn't suck at ALL, those scopes are freakin' amazing. So why would I risk the same cheddar on this relatively unknown and untested Russian import? Plus the included mount on it looks pretty janky. The mount that comes with our prisms is better, and if that one isn't good enough, you can yank it and replace it with any ACOG mount you like, even a $300 BOBRO that costs more than the scope if that's your taste (and yeah, I've actually seen some people do that).

I've got an advanced micro in a Scalarworks mount...

I've got my PAC4X in an ADM QD mount.

Attached File


While they are somewhat inflexible the ACOG has demonstrated that they are usable, and I believe that their inflexibility contributes to their durability.
That said, if you can make them with an always on capable battery life

The TA02 is supposed to be 10k hrs, if you could duplicate that,  or integrate a shake awake circuit, it would move it way up my list for useful optics.

A 4x prism with 10k hr battery life and a chevron/horseshoe reticle would be tits.

For me the prisms and your advanced mrds are the prefect intersection of price and utility. JMHO though.

That's with German Schott glass, and street price is usually around $500. It's not a bad deal considering, but could be done better.

If you guys could make one lighter, cheaper, with a better reticle, and with a better mount, it would sell. Assuming you could get true 1X like they do.

Truly variable roof prism optics are possible. Binoculars and spotting scopes use them, but the angle calculations to hold zero on a rifle scope are a different story. Plus weight challenges. I theorize it would be easier in a rifle scope using a slide rather than a magnification ring/dial, but I stayed at a Motel 6, not scope design school.

And here's my 5X in a non factory mount. Love it.

Guys, I just wanna say, thank you SO MUCH for your participation in this thread. When I started this thread, it was awhile ago now, I was hoping to score a handful of comments and just get a sense of what our customers were looking for. Now we're on page 4 of some really incredible insights and suggestions and critiques and every day I show up to work hoping that there will be a new post in this thread.

You guys ROCK and it means so much to me personally and to PA as a company. I really hope we can make some of these ideas happen for you.

Oh cmon, thank YOU!

Even if nothing comes from this thread at least you guys put it here and showed an effort to listen to customers and make what they want. Most companies you'd be lucky to get an email back from them thanking you for interest in something, a short explanation that they don't make it, and that they will pass the suggestion along. Which of course means getting filed away somewhere to never be seen again, at best

Thanks!  Even if a 3x Prism with KISS Reticle and integrated RDS (shared housing) never comes to fruition (due to RDS with 3x swing magnifier or 3x with RDS mounted on 12 o'clock rail covers that base), the 3x with longer eye relief and KISS would have a buyer in me.

PS: Letting the customers have a sounding board and voice in product development like you have done here is awesome (at least from my seat)!  Love reading the ideas of other users and your insights as an employee.  Thanks!

Hi Mike,
I saw some things online a while ago about a 6-24x50mm scope. Is that still in works or has it been scrapped? Thanks for the updates on the 3-18, can't wait to get one!

The 6-24x50mm project was scrapped entirely more than a year ago. It was basically an embiggened 4-14x44 with the same industrial design made larger, more or less. The 4-14x44 has been an excellent product, so it seemed like a safe bet, but it wasn't. They couldn't hold up to big caliber recoil like .300WM or .30-06. Rather than sell the scopes and try to tell people not to put them on hard recoiling guns, we canned them entirely.

I got to look through one of the prototypes, because I was working on the box and user manual for the optic. So please believe me when I tell you, the 3-18x50 blows that old 6-24x50 project out of the water. The glass on the 3-18x is SO much better, and the exit pupil at 24x magnification with a 50mm objective is tiny. I just looked it up in my old manual files, at full magnification the exit pupil was just 2.1mm.

I would rather have an 18x optic with really nice glass and 2.7mm exit pupil to do the same job. The 3-18x50 will get you well beyond a thousand yards with the right caliber and ammo.

Have the 3-18s started shipping yet?  

No but the first SKU is on preorder now. I expect them to fall like dominoes in August, one reticle right after the other.

I've decided R-Grid 2B is the one for me.

Any chance on a 2.5-10x ffp? Or something similar?

On the drawing boards. I wouldn't expect to actually get your hands on one before Trump is running for re-election.

Let me ask you, what's your intended best application for a 2.5-10x? What's the rifle you are building and the use case you have for it that makes you say "dang I wish they made a 2.5 - 10x for me to put on this thing..."? I'm trying to understand the target buyer for that magnification range, because right now I kinda don't "get it", if you know what I mean. Not saying it's a stupid idea, just saying I don't understand the appeal and what the use case scenario is.

Mine would go on my Grendel. I shot a dmr match with it, with a 6-24 scope on it. Realized two things, that scope is way too heavy, maybe I just need to hit the gym more lol, and I never really went above 10-12x while shooting the match.

More or less I want something that I can put on max power and make the 600 yard shots with, but still have low enough magnification to shoot a 25-50 yard target and being lighter than say a 6-24 or 3-15.

It takes a lot more energy to illuminate an etched reticle than to project a red dot. I'd be far more interested in a fiber-optic option for the PA prisms, with some sort of brightness control like that on the 1-4x Accupoint to allow the user to adjust the brightness based on conditions and their preference. That and a chevron-tipped ACSS would make the prisms perfect in my book!

Not the poster, but I can offer my reasons.

Bindon aiming concept. 2.5x is about the sweet spot where the average human eye loses objective focus with an optic when moving/scanning. This results in the right eye only seeing the reticle, and the left eye taking over full field of view, with said reticle being super imposed. It doesn't require illumination contrary to sales literature and popular belief, hence how Trijicon *used to* advertise BAC on the TA01. It does however require a reticle that draws the eye's attention (which illumination can obviously help).

A lot of people buy optics under that generic 2.5x threshold and use them like red dots instead, where their right eye is always focusing on the field of view. I can't do this. It makes me feel drunk, which ruins LPV's. Some people get it, some don't. In any event, I'm faster using BAC with any magnification.

So the 2.5x fills that bare minimum BAC threshold, as well as offering more magnification. 2-10 optics are usually fairly compact and lighter, plus BAC has deflection that gets worse in higher magnification ranges and objective diameters. So the 2-10 has more usable magnification range for me than a 1-8, and lacks the size and heft of say a 3-9 or more.

Big emphasis on compact too. A 2.5-10x44 won't sell for crap. A 2-10x32 or so that's low profile on the other hand has a big market for AR's.

I Bindon Aiming Concept with my PAC2.5x all the time. It works well for me but isn't as fast as a true 1x LPVO. I guess if you have to have the extra magnification up top, it's the only way to go though. Thanks for the explanation.

Unless it's true 1X it slows me down. It sucks. It's not everyone, but it's a lot of people that have issues with it.

But good news is, this is why I've had so many of your prism optics.

I would like to see a LPV either 1-6 or 1-8, ACSS, SFP (exactly like what you already offer), but with the upgraded glass from the FFP Raptor.

I'll throw out another perspective: I'm looking at putting together a general purpose rig with a scope and a 45* red dot.
I don't want/need a huge 3/4-12/16x44 scope, but it seems like companies are either offering those or the 1-4/6/8x24mm scopes, for which I'll already have the low end covered by my 45* RDS and they're less suited to the higher end of their range than something with a bit bigger objective.
There are 2-10s on the market (Burris has their 2-10x42xtr ii) but a reasonably light weight/compact, capped turret scope with an illuninated BDC reticle? That's what I'm looking for.
I like the Vortex viper pst ii 2-10x32, but it has exposed turrets and is $1k. I'd honestly be willing to give up illumination of the reticle (though I understand that's not a popular choice) to reduce price and weight, but something like the ACSS currently in your 1-8 would be ideal.

Any thoughts on something like the ATN scope?

Electronic scope with nightvision, primary use would be with a 300blk for Yote hunting.

What I’d really like to see next from Primary Arms? The FedEx van pulling up and delivering a 3-18X HUD to me. :)

I’d really like to see PA make a 5.56/.308 3X with a simple chevron reticle. Kinda similar to what you guys did with Trijicon with the ACSS ACOG, but with a 600yd BDC.

Self leveling mount, kind of like how SPUHR has the slot cut in it to level the scope.

Hakan's stuff is amazing (and he is a really great guy) but he has also patented the snot out of his mounts, and he protects those patents. We would be poorly advised to steal ideas from him.

As far as the ATN idea, I don't know of any plans for us to get into night vision. A couple of years ago I had what I thought was a brilliant idea for us to get into it. Make the housings in China at one of the factories that make our current red dots, then import just the housings with no guts inside them. Buy the intensifier tubes domestically from Victor at TNVC or wherever we can get them from, assemble in a clean room here in Houston and voila! Cheaper night vision with good intensifier tubes and we don't violate ITAR by sending night vision technology over to China. What's not to like?

Well the problem is, the housing isn't the expensive part, at all. It's those American-made intensifier tubes that account for the high cost. With a cheap Chinese-made housing we might shave a hundred bucks off of a $2700 night vision setup, and that's not enough to win over any market share. So my idea was no good in reality.

Just in case you're unaware of the the technology used in ATN's Xsight day/night vision scope, it's basically a night vision security camera mounted to a rifle and uses IR illumination to see at night. They sell them from the $400-$700 range depending on model and such. This was something I suggested earlier as well because I think you guys could make one that's better, and there isn't much for competition in that market.

The night vision capability itself is pretty basic, your visible range is limited to what your illuminator can illuminate and the resolution of the camera keeps things from being well defined the further away they are. However, they seem to be VERY popular among night hunters (coyote, pigs, etc) as the shooting they do is within the scopes capability.

The really neat "extra" features that the scope packs in are video recording, bluetooth, wifi, gps, a ballistic calculator, one shot zeroing, saved ballistic profiles, and laser rangefinder integration.

Obviously the video recording is great for hunters who want to share their hunt with their buddies or family. It even can sense recoil to record only a certain amount of time before the shot so you don't have a useless amount of footage.

The bluetooth and wifi let you connect the scope to your phone so you can get a live view of what the scope sees without having to be behind the gun. This is great if for example you were to use the gun on a tripod, in a blind, overlooking a feeder(day or night). You can keep on a eye on if any game has come to the feeder while kicking back and relaxing. It's also useful for mentoring a young/new shooter and being able to see exactly what they see.

The GPS personally doesn't do anything for me but if you happened to stumble across something where you wanted to record a location and had no other way to do it (cell phone, handheld gps, etc) then you could do it with the scope.

The ballistic calculator, one shot zero, saved ballistic profiles, and laser rangefinder integration all kind of go hand in hand, and this is probably my favorite part of the scope. First I'll start with the one shot zero. The HUD inside the scope lets you fire a shot, then leaves your original cross hair mark displayed so that you can hold it over the original POA. It then lets you move a second cross hair mark to the POI. Once in place you press the button to finish the process and from that point forward the scope adjusts to display the cross hair at the location of that POI. The ballistic calculator lets you input your load data into the scope (either through the scope itself or through the phone app) so that you can adjust the range setting in the HUD and the cross hair will automatically adjust to the calculated POI for the selected range (and wind speed if inputted). This load data can be saved to create multiple profiles for different types of ammo (say for example a .223 77gr TSX load for deer hunting and a .223 55gr VMAX load for coyote hunting) or even different calibers if you wished to swap the optic between rifles. The laser range finder integration takes the manual input of range out of the equation. The newest Xsight model uses a LRF mounted to the objective of the scope to constantly range and update the scope for where it's pointed. This means the only thing you'll ever have to worry about adjusting for is wind if your load data is spot on.

Pretty cool right? Well there is still plenty of room for improvement on the design. First off, one of the biggest complaints I see from users on the FB groups is software/firmware bugs/glitches. Some better QC in that department would help improve the perception of the scopes reliability. The second biggest flaw in the design is how it mounts to different rifles. There are very few mount options that work well with the newest Xsight 4k and even less options for the older models. Being Primary Arms, you're in the unique position to develop a solid mount or two that will work well over a larger variety of firearms. The other big flaw for me personally is that the scope uses a fixed optical magnification and relies on digital magnification after that. Having some type of variable or swappable optical magnification would eliminate the resolution problems people have. The newest 4k model uses a 4k camera sensor for input and outputs to a 1080 screen on the occular side of the scope. This helps reduce the drastic decline in image quality with digital magnification but it doesn't eliminate it.

No doubt this would probably be a huge leap for you guys but you're one of the few manufacturers that I think could do it and do it well.

Any way to come up with a way to level a scope with out needing a level?  Hakan came up with that great idea of the slot to get the wedge to level the scope.  I just would like to see other ideas that could work.  Maybe if I get some time to look at it I could think of something.  And not suggesting a copy of his, but the ability to self level easier...

Poster below me expanded on the ATN thing, a digital scope would be need, with built in ranging / ballistic table that you load to it?

Thanks for the reply :)

@Maverick52

We are familiar with the ATNs and their capabilities. Pretty cool. For now it's a lot more affordable for us to just carry their scopes on our site as opposed to trying to develop our own. But it's fun to daydream!

Good to hear! I wasn't sure since you replied about standard NV, but it's nice to know that stuff as well

Completely agree. A smaller, compact, lightweight, variable is missing in the marketplace. There are very few options. Nightforce, Vortex PST gen 1, Leupold Mark AR and VXR patrol are about it. I'd even settle for a 3-9(x32 or 40) with a good, illuminated reticle, preferably with good glass (phillipene or Japanese). Nightforce is stupid expensive, Vortex PST gen 1 is hard to come by, gen 2s are heavy. Leupold's only have an illuminated dot.

Mines in a DD mount

I want a TA33 with the same reticle you put in the TA44 and Cyclops.

Those DD mounts are LEGIT for the money, I'm a fan. They aren't QD but once they are in place, you're good to go.

I want the TA-11, the full size 3.5x, with ACSS. That thing has eyebox and field of view for days. Gimme!

4x34 prism.

BDC calibrated for 100yd zero with Mk262/M80 from a 16" barrel. 6 MOA chevrons or 3 MOA dots for each hash.

Finger adjustable turrets. Consistent 0.5 MOA clicks.

Co-witness height above rail.

The 3-18 is only available in thr ACSS HUD? I would pre order it tomorrow if you had a mil or moa version. ACSS on a higher powered optic limits it's use on different rifles (different loads, barrels, calibers, etc). ACSS is awesome for what it is, in the 0-600m arena, but what if I want something for a Grendel or 6.5CM build?

There are several other reticles this will be available in. One MOA, and one Mil, an upgraded R-Grid, as well as one 6.5 Creed specific.

More Details Here

Sweeeeeeeeeet

Hope to see them available soon

I’m not sure what I want to see next, a 3x and 5x prism are on my short list. I will say that I am very happy the 30mm’s are back and in FDE!

Ooooh, that's pretty! I like it a lot!

EXACTLY what I seek. Simple choice. Dot or chevron

I have been trying to find the smallest thing I could find. Unlike many, I don't want a setup like a 7/11 with every product stuffed into a tiny shop.

Was going with 2.5x ACSS CPS. Dot. At a distance, I find the chevron to be more precise.

Then the ACSS Paralow red dot looks nice. Smaller. AND has the chevron, but now leaning towards the etched reticle.

Checked out the 1.5x ACOG ACSS . Chevron - but a bit pricey for me.

Considered the Cyclops - but with no magnification, it's nearly the size of a 2.5 or 3x ACSS CPS, so

So at THIS point, a 2.5x (3x, 5x) ACSS offered with a chevron.

OH: PS!! Lucid has a simple, screw in 2x magnifier. YES PLEASE! I'm actually wondering if I can make that work on an ACSS Primary Arms/Holosun!

TA33 ACSS would be awesome.

Also, when are we going to see the 6.5 creedmoor optic for sale?

Good looking rifle, nicely done!

I was told today that they don't have anything more firm than "Q4" or the fourth fiscal quarter of 2018 in terms of the 3-18x50 FFP Apollo CM being on pre order or available. We've gotten burned a couple of times this year by telling folks a specific month and then they get upset when it doesn't happen, so "Q4" is kinda their way of saying "we just can't predict it right now, don't promise anything ok?"