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Link Posted: 5/18/2024 2:29:38 PM EDT
[#1]
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Originally Posted By Spagehttie:


I just read through 6 pages and all I could think about was this.

If your average armed forces member doesn't really know or care about their issued weapon, why would your average militia member?

The sheer size of a militia with basic training is a force multiplier to secure areas and harass enemy forces.

Your standard M4, TAPS chest rig with an IFAK is enough. Belt feds stored in local armories to be issued out as needed or already owned.

It's not perfect, but the US M4/M4A1 is probably the best mass produced combat rifle available.
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Agreed with you conclusion, but not the assumption in red.

In America, in 2024, your Civil Defense militia member is going to be one of two things.  
A: a gun guy, who (apart perhaps from a FA lower) probably has (and can bring) better shit from his safe than he'd be issued.  This man, if FA is desired, should be encouraged to swap his lower/other necessary parts, and retain as much of his personal gear as possible.  Anything he doesn't use becomes spares, so what exactly thing is doesn't really matter to him.  

B: A non-gun person, for whom training/familiarity with the weapon is minimal.  The standard M4A1, for which the US already has parts and tools and logistics, is certainly as good a choice as any other rifle.  Sure, there are possibly better gas lengths or buffer weights for certain situations, but your Type B militia member will absolutely not be trained to a level of proficiency where that shit will make any difference.  So an M4A1, with irons or a 1x prism scope (no batteries), and a chest rig (or last-gen LBV, or bandoleer, who cares), with an IFAK and 3 MRE's will do just fine for as long as this person's expected to live.  
Link Posted: 5/18/2024 7:37:25 PM EDT
[#2]
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Originally Posted By Spagehttie:


I just read through 6 pages and all I could think about was this.

If your average armed forces member doesn't really know or care about their issued weapon, why would your average militia member?

The sheer size of a militia with basic training is a force multiplier to secure areas and harass enemy forces.

Your standard M4, TAPS chest rig with an IFAK is enough. Belt feds stored in local armories to be issued out as needed or already owned.

It's not perfect, but the US M4/M4A1 is probably the best mass produced combat rifle available.
View Quote
Well, I disagree with an AR of course.  But if you're going with an AR why would you pick a design from 1994?  I'd at least go with a modern handguard and no fixed FSB.  Carbine gas instead of midlength?  And figure out a better way to make a cheap trigger that doesn't suck.
Link Posted: 5/18/2024 9:19:56 PM EDT
[#3]
A Geissele Super Duty perfectly fits the bill. Add a NF nx8 1-8 with capped turrets and fc-dmx reticle. Has a fantastic trigger.
Link Posted: 5/18/2024 9:45:38 PM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
Well, I disagree with an AR of course.  But if you're going with an AR why would you pick a design from 1994?  I'd at least go with a modern handguard and no fixed FSB.  Carbine gas instead of midlength?  And figure out a better way to make a cheap trigger that doesn't suck.
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Parts are available, proven, and a known standard.

Everyone knows what an M4 is. The TDP is there, and nearly everyone makes a relatively close clversion of it. Just tell Anderson or PSA or DD to make an M4. They know how.

A standard AR trigger is perfectly fine. It's drop dead simple, reliable and durable. If you need a better trigger for a DMR, it takes 2 pins and maybe 1 minute to install a Giessle. The average militiaman isn't going to see an improvement in their shooting by having a better trigger.

Why FSB? Now you don't have to worry about making and distributing front sights and their mounting hardware. It also provides a great ambidextrous sling mounting point (either by using the side sling adapter, or using the top sling mount, or even simple paracord) it's also a far more durable gas block than your average set screw gas block

It exists, and is a known standard.
Link Posted: 5/18/2024 10:10:51 PM EDT
[#5]
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Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
Well, I disagree with an AR of course.  But if you're going with an AR why would you pick a design from 1994?  I'd at least go with a modern handguard and no fixed FSB.  Carbine gas instead of midlength?  And figure out a better way to make a cheap trigger that doesn't suck.
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Who cares?   Really; do you honestly think a barely-trained landwehr who took basic 20 years ago and has had a weekend of training every year since is going to shoot markedly better with a free-floated middy AR than a FSB carbine?  

Spoiler;  my police dept got brand new, badass Daniel Defense DDM4V7's three years ago.  Before that, we were using clapped-out Bushmaster M-4's from the mid-2000's.  Our shooting scores overall did not improve, and no one but the gun guys appreciated the difference.
Link Posted: 5/18/2024 11:20:05 PM EDT
[#6]
The standard trigger works just fine for what it is intended for.
Link Posted: 5/19/2024 12:05:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Andrewsky] [#7]
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Originally Posted By Deadtired:
Who cares?   Really; do you honestly think a barely-trained landwehr who took basic 20 years ago and has had a weekend of training every year since is going to shoot markedly better with a free-floated middy AR than a FSB carbine?  

Spoiler;  my police dept got brand new, badass Daniel Defense DDM4V7's three years ago.  Before that, we were using clapped-out Bushmaster M-4's from the mid-2000's.  Our shooting scores overall did not improve, and no one but the gun guys appreciated the difference.
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If we're starting from scratch why intentionally pick something that's worse?  The only reason the FSB was ever there is because ACOGs and Aimpoints didn't have the same track record in 1994 as they do now, so BUIS were more of a priority.  Just give everybody a cheap red dot and forget about the irons.  The FSB just gets in the way.
Link Posted: 5/19/2024 12:06:51 PM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By Frank762:
The standard trigger works just fine for what it is intended for.
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I'd just switch it to a better geometry at least.  Why are we married to a trigger design from the 1950s?
Link Posted: 5/19/2024 4:15:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC] [#9]
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Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
I'd just switch it to a better geometry at least.  Why are we married to a trigger design from the 1950s?
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If switching to anything just go with a Geissele SSA. Again, why reinvent the wheel when COTS options are available and with Geissele SSF already being an issued item for SOCOM?

But, the standard trigger is not that bad and in the use case of a CDS does not need to be swapped out.
Link Posted: 5/19/2024 4:20:19 PM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
If we're starting from scratch why intentionally pick something that's worse?  The only reason the FSB was ever there is because ACOGs and Aimpoints didn't have the same track record in 1994 as they do now, so BUIS were more of a priority.  Just give everybody a cheap red dot and forget about the irons.  The FSB just gets in the way.
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A cheap red dot is a bad idea. An Aimpoint or ACOG are better ideas. Stick with what’s proven.
Link Posted: 5/19/2024 7:14:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jm11513] [#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
If we're starting from scratch why intentionally pick something that's worse?  The only reason the FSB was ever there is because ACOGs and Aimpoints didn't have the same track record in 1994 as they do now, so BUIS were more of a priority.  Just give everybody a cheap red dot and forget about the irons.  The FSB just gets in the way.
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Because we don't have to start from scratch. The AR15 even in it's 1994 form eats everything else for breakfast.

If the FSB gets in the way, you don't know how to shoot. Getting rid of the FSB and giving them a nice trigger won't help someone that bereft of skill.
Link Posted: 5/19/2024 7:27:09 PM EDT
[#12]
K.I.S.S.

AR15 type rifle/carbine in the configuration that makes the most sense for your AO (city needs, plains needs, mountain needs, etc)

Glocks in 9mm of any size you like, but preferably the family of double stacks.

Lots of other contenders to each of these, but nothing as common and in the numbers that makes any sense for long term use.  Once your other choice breaks or runs out of ammo, you will look for one of these…
Link Posted: 5/19/2024 8:56:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MK318] [#13]
Pistols are a terrible choice IMO. They are hard to shoot, they are hard to train people how to use, they lack effectiveness. If people have theirs they brought from home that’s fine but they really aren’t worth issuing and distributing as a civil defense weapon. An M4 carbine alone should be plenty. With every extra piece of gear, ammo and weapon issued you are creating a bigger and bigger logistic and training footprint. I wouldn’t even bother issuing chest rigs, the six mag bandoleer and an M4 with a sling. Stick a small IFAK in one of the pouches in the bandoleer and four mags in the other pouches. One mag in the rifle. That is 150 rounds, a rifle, a sling, five mags, an IFAK, and a bandoleer to carry it all over the chest.

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Link Posted: 5/20/2024 1:02:10 PM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By MK318:
Pistols are a terrible choice IMO. They are hard to shoot, they are hard to train people how to use, they lack effectiveness. If people have theirs they brought from home that’s fine but they really aren’t worth issuing and distributing as a civil defense weapon. An M4 carbine alone should be plenty. With every extra piece of gear, ammo and weapon issued you are creating a bigger and bigger logistic and training footprint. I wouldn’t even bother issuing chest rigs, the six mag bandoleer and an M4 with a sling. Stick a small IFAK in one of the pouches in the bandoleer and four mags in the other pouches. One mag in the rifle. That is 150 rounds, a rifle, a sling, five mags, an IFAK, and a bandoleer to carry it all over the chest.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_4474_jpeg-3218723.JPG
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Don't even need that bandoleer as there's already a bandoleer with 120 rds that will be issued to the minuteman.

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Pull that white string like a feed bag and unzip.
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4 mags per bandoleer rolled up.  Over 3000 rds loaded here.
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