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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:10:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Mad_Anthony]
 NASA's Nazi Memorials - Honouring War Criminals 2024 Von Braun and Kurt Debus are just two of the many Nazi scientists who were brought here during operation paperclip. Both of these particular individuals were devout Nazi party members who were well aware of the slave labor being used in their rocket programs. Von Braun and Kurt Debus are honored by NASA and the U.S. government to this day, with their pasts conveniently whitewashed for public consumption. Why? Mark Felton asks this question as well in his video. He wonders why the monuments to Von Braun haven't been torn down like many Confederate monuments. I think that's a good question. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:12:08 AM EDT
[#1]
Are you saying America is innocent in finding these men knowing who they were, used their knowledge and skills to further America, and then pretend we knew nothing?
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:13:45 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperHeavy: Are you saying America is innocent in finding these men knowing who they were, used their knowledge and skills to further America, and then pretend we knew nothing? 
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:13:50 AM EDT
[#3]
Once the rockets go up,
Who cares where they come down? That's not my department, Says Wernher von Braun! |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:14:52 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperHeavy: Are you saying America is innocent in finding these men knowing who they were, used their knowledge and skills to further America, and then pretend we knew nothing? Oh I think the U.S. Gov't knew full well who they were inviting to dinner, so-to-speak. But the Soviet threat was the greater evil, so they turned a blind eye to ugly pasts. The question is: why do we still HONOR these men? |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:15:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheJudgeHolden]
[#5]
Obviously their pasts weren't whitewashed if you are here, whinging about it. They are remembered for their massive contributions to this country and to science.
Self righteousness with a lack of self reflection is the worst of personality traits. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:17:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Because we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:17:57 AM EDT
[#7]
To follow your logic, I guess we should condemn the Apollo missions, since Von Braun helped design the Saturn V. Take back the title of Americans being the first humans to walk on the moon.
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USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:18:06 AM EDT
[#8]
I know his daughter.
Got to fire his .30-30 his biographer gave him. Still trying to get it from her. What would you do to survive? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:18:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperHeavy]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Oh I think the U.S. Gov't knew full well who they were inviting to dinner, so-to-speak. But the Soviet threat was the greater evil, so they turned a blind eye to ugly pasts. The question is: why do we still HONOR these men? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Originally Posted By SuperHeavy: Are you saying America is innocent in finding these men knowing who they were, used their knowledge and skills to further America, and then pretend we knew nothing? Oh I think the U.S. Gov't knew full well who they were inviting to dinner, so-to-speak. But the Soviet threat was the greater evil, so they turned a blind eye to ugly pasts. The question is: why do we still HONOR these men? Without them the Saturn V wouldn't exist, maybe the Apple show "For all Mankind" would be true and the US space program wouldn't exist. We took a known evil and used it for our own good. I legitimately don't know exactly what Von Braun knew, but you know if he spoke out or refused in Nazi Germany he'd have been in a mass burial grave too. The guy was a smart scientist who made things for his and OUR government. Go to KSC and look at what he helped the USA achieve and still call him an evil man that should be "cancelled". If anything, the guys who had him do it in the name of the USA should be demonished. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:21:08 AM EDT
[#10]
I have no problem with this.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:21:25 AM EDT
[#11]
because most people are stupid and don't know their history. Besides, what were we going to do with all those NAZI engineers and great brain power?
I member going to kindergarten with a kid who would tell me his grandfather said the Nazi's would take over America one day. Little did I know. 
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:21:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Oh I think the U.S. Gov't knew full well who they were inviting to dinner, so-to-speak. But the Soviet threat was the greater evil, so they turned a blind eye to ugly pasts. The question is: why do we still HONOR these men? They got The Pass. Funny, eh? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:23:51 AM EDT
[#13]
You know Henry Ford was a Nazi too... A lot of Americans were Nazi's.. or supporters of Germany.
I mean.. Germany even awarded Henry Ford with the German Eagle medal in 1938... |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:24:30 AM EDT
[#14]
Better we had them than the Russians, or even other European countries.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:24:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperHeavy]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WinstonSmith: They got The Pass. Funny, eh? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WinstonSmith: Originally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Oh I think the U.S. Gov't knew full well who they were inviting to dinner, so-to-speak. But the Soviet threat was the greater evil, so they turned a blind eye to ugly pasts. The question is: why do we still HONOR these men? They got The Pass. Funny, eh? If I hired Hitler tomorrow, and the boss of the company figured it out. Whose head would roll? Mine or Hitlers? (Probably both  )Do not seek to condemn another man for your own actions made in an effort to forward youself. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:25:42 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JHMC79: Because we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them. This. Why is this even a question? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:26:13 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Warspite: To follow your logic, I guess we should condemn the Apollo missions, since Von Braun helped design the Saturn V. Take back the title of Americans being the first humans to walk on the moon. Your logic is flawed. I didn't say we needed to condemn the good we got out of the space program due to these scientists' contributions. I'm just asking why is it necessary to HONOR these men today. |
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ND, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:26:38 AM EDT
[#18]
He is honored because of his technology achievements in context of the NASA space program, not a full endorsement of his entire life. If you're incapable of separating the two and recognizing every human is flawed to different degrees that's a pretty high horse your sitting on.
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:27:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: watgar]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony:The question is: why do we still HONOR these men? They're still the ones in charge? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:27:06 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BDA: You know Henry Ford was a Nazi too... A lot of Americans were Nazi's.. or supporters of Germany. I mean.. Germany even awarded Henry Ford with the German Eagle medal in 1938... Sheeeeyt. They had communist rallies in the 30's in public. The pendulum keeps swinging. https://www.nytimes.com/1939/02/28/archives/12000-communists-rally-at-garden-peaceful-meeting-marks-20th-year.html |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:27:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Master_Shake]
[#21]
50 years from now we'll be watching a Netflix documentary depicting Wernher von Braun as a black Trans activist so it will all even out
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:28:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperHeavy]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Your logic is flawed. I didn't say we needed to condemn the good we got out of the space program due to these scientists' contributions. I'm just asking why is it necessary to HONOR these men today. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Originally Posted By Warspite: To follow your logic, I guess we should condemn the Apollo missions, since Von Braun helped design the Saturn V. Take back the title of Americans being the first humans to walk on the moon. Your logic is flawed. I didn't say we needed to condemn the good we got out of the space program due to these scientists' contributions. I'm just asking why is it necessary to HONOR these men today. Go and look at the Saturn V. It took us until last year to even match the power of it. We honor those who helped us achieve things we couldn't without them. Von Braun is a scape goat. Look at current and past NASA programs, the shuttle was the biggest waste of human life and $$$ they ever passed off as a success. Orion & SLS will be a bigger embarrassment. Musk will smoke a joint and launch a rocket 2x as powerful as a Saturn V every week by now if the .gov didn't have any say. NASA is bleeding, because the likes on Von Braun now work for private entities. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:31:33 AM EDT
[#23]
I think we understand his contributions and his involvement with the NAZI party. I don't get why you are hung up on "honoring" him. I didn't honor him today, did you? Maybe we should tear down some statues, that would help things right?
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:33:56 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Your logic is flawed. I didn't say we needed to condemn the good we got out of the space program due to these scientists' contributions. I'm just asking why is it necessary to HONOR these men today. No one cares. Go find something more productive to do, like watching paint dry, or hitting your hand with a ball peen hammer, or maybe take up challenge pissing. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:35:12 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: No one cares. Go find something more productive to do, like watching paint dry, or hitting your hand with a ball peen hammer, or maybe take up challenge pissing. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:36:49 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: FUCK YOU BALTIMORE DON'T FUCK WITH US, OR YOU'RE A DEAD MAN! |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:37:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Felton’s narration of Wikipedia page ass videos are gay and so is he. Who the fuck cares what those brilliant minds did before they came/were brought to the US.
I won’t accept any bad mouthing of Von Braun. Anyone who does is a commie fuck. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:37:48 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: DON'T FUCK WITH US, OR YOU'RE A DEAD MAN! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: Originally Posted By Kingdead: FUCK YOU BALTIMORE DON'T FUCK WITH US, OR YOU'RE A DEAD MAN! I score your pizza a 4/10. Football pizza. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:39:00 AM EDT
[#29]
Because beating the Soviets was more important than grinding talented men into the ground over a war we already won.
Get the fuck over it. They're dead now. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:39:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FG24U]
[#30]
Until yesterday, I didn’t know where Operation Paperclip got the name from. I guess the people reviewing files were attaching paperclips to the jackets of files of those who wouldn’t be “palatable” by the administration.
Wasn’t aware of the Disney connection, either. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:40:15 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arfreak223: He is honored because of his technology achievements in context of the NASA space program, not a full endorsement of his entire life. If you're incapable of separating the two and recognizing every human is flawed to different degrees that's a pretty high horse your sitting on. Let me put it another way. In WW2 the Japanese performed medical experiments on living POWs, including American POWs. Would you be ok with honoring a Japanese scientist or doctor for helping us, post-war, to find a cure for some disease or disability we were plagued with? I'm not saying we throw away the skills and knowledge contributed by these men, I'm just saying we shouldn't honor the war criminals. If we are going to leave the monuments to them up, why shouldn't their full pasts also be displayed? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:40:39 AM EDT
[#32]
Fucking tiresome. Everyone knows Paperclip was intended to make use of German tech and ingenuity to further the victor's post-war advancements.
Firebombing Dresden and Tokyo. We won the war. Some pretty shitty things were done to achieve that. Even morally AND strategically questionable things. Let's not pretend that using Germans was some corruption of our angelic nature. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:43:41 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Let me put it another way. In WW2 the Japanese performed medical experiments on living POWs, including American POWs. Would you be ok with honoring a Japanese scientist or doctor for helping us, post-war, to find a cure for some disease or disability we were plagued with? I'm not saying we throw away the skills and knowledge contributed by these men, I'm just saying we shouldn't honor the war criminals. If we are going to leave the monuments to them up, why shouldn't their full pasts also be displayed? |
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USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:44:38 AM EDT
[#34]
Nobody was innocent. Nobody is in war.
Hell, OP. Why don't you look up how the tech came about for a modern heart transplant. I can assure you, it wasn't pretty, nor was the "Doctor" that performed the experiments sane or humane. Life is cruel. If some good comes out of the bad, then take it. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:45:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: DON'T FUCK WITH US, OR YOU'RE A DEAD MAN! |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:45:07 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: No one cares. Go find something more productive to do, like watching paint dry, or hitting your hand with a ball peen hammer, or maybe take up challenge pissing. If you don't like it here, go find someone else's thread to shit in. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:46:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Now do the US Bio Lab program and the members of Japan's unit 731 that were paid for their research. Talking about Syphilis experiments being conducted by the evil japanese scientists until 1945, then in 1946 the US setting up bio labs in Guatemala to continue the Syphilis experiments.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:50:03 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JHMC79: Because we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them. Likely not true. But let’s face it: both NASA and going to the moon are gay. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:50:47 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: OK so you want to tear down monuments. How about the Confederate statues? They probably had slaves, should we tear then down too? How about renaming all the schools of our early presidents because they probably had slaves or indentured servants. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: Originally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Let me put it another way. In WW2 the Japanese performed medical experiments on living POWs, including American POWs. Would you be ok with honoring a Japanese scientist or doctor for helping us, post-war, to find a cure for some disease or disability we were plagued with? I'm not saying we throw away the skills and knowledge contributed by these men, I'm just saying we shouldn't honor the war criminals. If we are going to leave the monuments to them up, why shouldn't their full pasts also be displayed? We obviously need more monuments to mental giants like St. Floyd to rid us of all this guilt! |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:50:55 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 56xdx_Z: Now do the US Bio Lab program and the members of Japan's unit 731 that were paid for their research. Talking about Syphilis experiments being conducted by the evil japanese scientists until 1945, then in 1946 the US setting up bio labs in Guatemala to continue the Syphilis experiments. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:52:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperHeavy]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Let me put it another way. In WW2 the Japanese performed medical experiments on living POWs, including American POWs. Would you be ok with honoring a Japanese scientist or doctor for helping us, post-war, to find a cure for some disease or disability we were plagued with? I'm not saying we throw away the skills and knowledge contributed by these men, I'm just saying we shouldn't honor the war criminals. If we are going to leave the monuments to them up, why shouldn't their full pasts also be displayed? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Originally Posted By arfreak223: He is honored because of his technology achievements in context of the NASA space program, not a full endorsement of his entire life. If you're incapable of separating the two and recognizing every human is flawed to different degrees that's a pretty high horse your sitting on. Let me put it another way. In WW2 the Japanese performed medical experiments on living POWs, including American POWs. Would you be ok with honoring a Japanese scientist or doctor for helping us, post-war, to find a cure for some disease or disability we were plagued with? I'm not saying we throw away the skills and knowledge contributed by these men, I'm just saying we shouldn't honor the war criminals. If we are going to leave the monuments to them up, why shouldn't their full pasts also be displayed? Let's think of it this way.... The Victor writes the History books. What did we do that we're still hiding. We already know we used lots of chemicals on our own guys who's late relatives still live with the affects. Noone is innocent in war, or peacetime. Why do our schools need NEW history books every few years? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:53:35 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead:The US is not innocent, but it's better than most. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:53:57 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: OK so you want to tear down monuments. How about the Confederate statues? They probably had slaves, should we tear then down too? How about renaming all the schools of our early presidents because they probably had slaves or indentured servants. I didn't say I wanted any monuments torn down. I'm actually against the erasing of history by the tearing down of monuments. I'm just asking why they exist, today, without the full context of what these men did in the past. And the same goes for Confederate Generals. If they were piece of shit human beings who owned slaves, it should be mentioned on their plaques along with their "achievements". |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:54:31 AM EDT
[#44]
Most of you are WAY too young to remember the “space race”, of which our landing on the moon was the climax of that effort.
For those who fall into that group, allow me to illuminate the tempo of that era: In the post WWII era, the US was engaged in a philosophical and economic battle with the USSR. So as to avoid significant actual bloodshed, much of the battle was fought using propaganda. The US saw the space race as a great propaganda tool as much as a technological challenge. Allowing the Russians to land on the moon first would be a huge blow in the efforts of the US to show the superiority of “the American way” over the “Communist way”. Thus, the objective was to beat the USSR to the moon at (almost) any cost. Many will argue that it was a wasteful effort, and one that wrongfully employed former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers to achieve the objective. That perception is only arrived at by viewing that period in history through the prism of today. |
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ND, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:58:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Let me put it another way. In WW2 the Japanese performed medical experiments on living POWs, including American POWs. Would you be ok with honoring a Japanese scientist or doctor for helping us, post-war, to find a cure for some disease or disability we were plagued with? I'm not saying we throw away the skills and knowledge contributed by these men, I'm just saying we shouldn't honor the war criminals. If we are going to leave the monuments to them up, why shouldn't their full pasts also be displayed? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: Originally Posted By arfreak223: He is honored because of his technology achievements in context of the NASA space program, not a full endorsement of his entire life. If you're incapable of separating the two and recognizing every human is flawed to different degrees that's a pretty high horse your sitting on. Let me put it another way. In WW2 the Japanese performed medical experiments on living POWs, including American POWs. Would you be ok with honoring a Japanese scientist or doctor for helping us, post-war, to find a cure for some disease or disability we were plagued with? I'm not saying we throw away the skills and knowledge contributed by these men, I'm just saying we shouldn't honor the war criminals. If we are going to leave the monuments to them up, why shouldn't their full pasts also be displayed? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:00:44 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad_Anthony: I didn't say I wanted any monuments torn down. I'm actually against the erasing of history by the tearing down of monuments. I'm just asking why they exist, today, without the full context of what these men did in the past. And the same goes for Confederate Generals. If they were piece of shit human beings who owned slaves, it should be mentioned on their plaques along with their "achievements". |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:14:07 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arfreak223: I don't view history with same moral lens you do, my take would be more nuanced than being "ok" with it. A good amount of people who made it into the history books have a checkered past and killed people to make it there. I could easily use your same logic to tear down down the founding fathers or settlers pushing west, just like liberals often do. Slave owners, stolen land, etc but I recognize nature is brutal. Nature and man are both brutal. I'm not suggesting we tear everything down, I really wish people would quit putting words in my mouth on this point. I'm just asking why we can't get the full context of a person's history who is being honored. Yes, I'm well aware several of our founding fathers were slave owners. But several others were not. I can acknowledge the good deeds done by bad people while not forgetting the evils that were done. If you want to call those evils "mistakes" then I would say we should learn from them, and endeavor to make ourselves better by not ignoring them. But to whitewash an evil history completely, as has been done with the two individuals this thread is about; is historical malpractice. I was never taught about the dark pasts of these two men, I was only ever taught about their achievements. I had to do my own research to learn their full pasts to discover what they did. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:16:21 AM EDT
[#48]
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:18:54 AM EDT
[#49]
The founding fathers were slave owners. Why are we honoring their accomplishments? See how this can go?
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:19:54 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: Do that in your mind and conversations with your friends and family. Do you need a plaque to tell you how to think or can you read about people and make your own observations? Do you need the government to put bumper lanes on all the monuments so your thoughts on the subject are properly tempered? Clearly you can think for yourself, don't insist of government or public curbing of thoughts. I think people in North Korea would kill for the freedom you have if only they knew what it was like to have access to the info you can read about. That's the issue at the very heart of this thread. The government has already put bumper lanes on these monuments by whitewashing the dark pasts of these men. If you actually watched the video, that's the main point. No mention has been made of these men's ties to the Nazi party and knowledge (and consent) of the slave labor they employed. |
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