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Link Posted: 5/1/2024 11:42:09 AM EDT
[#1]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



The best just keeps getting better.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfhZfNXQAAXaKr?format=jpg&name=large
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Cool. But when is the 35mm cannon arriving? 50mm?
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 11:44:57 AM EDT
[#2]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
lol, just restart your defense industry and compete, eventually they will realize it is good for their economy and their own defense.

Not our fault you like our products.




View Quote

But the more Britian is dependent on US weapons, the more dickless, cowardly US diplomats can influence and strangle Brit. foreign policy. If the US made Storm Shadow, I bet ZERO would have arrived in Ukraine.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 11:50:56 AM EDT
[#3]
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Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly:


Yep!  Who had "The US invades Cuba" and "The US and Britain send forces to repel a Venezuelan invasion of Guyana" on their Bingo card!
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India and Pakistan will have to sort things out on their own...
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 11:53:06 AM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

This is worth singling out and repeating. Russia is a terrorist state, ruled by war criminals. There is no difference between Putin's Russia and Hitler's Germany. The failure of western leaders to confront Russia appropriately is astonishing. After so many articles like this one, so many repeated confirmation of Russia's gross violations of human rights, international laws and treaties like Geneva Conventions, all free nations should be pushing for Russia to be expelled from every international body except the UN GA. Take their seat on the Security Council until they stop the war and re-establish their commitment to the Geneva Conventions with a new ratification.
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There is no difference between Putin's Russia and the Russian led Soviet Union. Remove Putin and his coterie of sycophants and nothing changes in Russia; there will still be social, cultural, and political disease.

What happens culturally and politically in Russia is not some external import, the removal of which will return Russia to it rightful place amongst the most civilized and cultured peoples in all of human history. What is happening in Russia today is what happened in Russia decades ago; it is an internal disease.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 12:10:39 PM EDT
[#6]

Notice how the vehicles are labeled with prominent flags showing country of origin. "See! All of NATO is against us! We fight heroically against 87 countries to save our lands!"
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 12:15:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea] [#7]
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

Don't forget that China's cost structure is dramatically lower than the US, so their spending goes a LOT farther than ours.
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Quincy institute put out a rebuttal in Forbes and even Quincy’s guy said “at most China spends half what the USA spends on defense” well half is a lot fucking more than China tells the world its spending which belies common sense when Beijing announces increased defense spending year after year like in March 2024 “ 7%” despite their economy wobbling

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhartung/2024/04/30/new-estimate-of-chinese-military-spending-doesnt-hold-water/?sh=6a4c995e3182
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 12:25:39 PM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:

Quincy institute put out a rebuttal in Forbes and even Quincy’s guy said “at most China spends half what the USA spends on defense” well half is a lot fucking more than China tells the world its spending which belies common sense when Beijing announces increased defense spending year after year like in March 2024 “ 7%” despite their economy wobbling
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:
Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:
Don't forget that China's cost structure is dramatically lower than the US, so their spending goes a LOT farther than ours.

Quincy institute put out a rebuttal in Forbes and even Quincy’s guy said “at most China spends half what the USA spends on defense” well half is a lot fucking more than China tells the world its spending which belies common sense when Beijing announces increased defense spending year after year like in March 2024 “ 7%” despite their economy wobbling

Is there any estimate for the value for dollar that China's defense spending gets versus the US? We spend so much on DEI, sensitivity training, benefits, benefits for contractors, while China gets much more dollars direct to weapons & action. I would guess that China spending half of what the US spends gets them more than the US gets in terms of persons under arms, weapons procured for use & arsenal, live training, etc, but I don't know any quantification.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 12:40:16 PM EDT
[#9]
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Originally Posted By lycurgus:
There is no difference between Putin's Russia and the Russian led Soviet Union. Remove Putin and his coterie of sycophants and nothing changes in Russia; there will still be social, cultural, and political disease.

What happens culturally and politically in Russia is not some external import, the removal of which will return Russia to it rightful place amongst the most civilized and cultured peoples in all of human history. What is happening in Russia today is what happened in Russia decades ago; it is an internal disease.
View Quote

I would argue that Russia today is more closely aligned with most of Russian history than you suggest. Invasion, rape, murder, plunder, conquest, oppression, and abuse are Russian historical norms. Russia's cultural origin is the Khans. Like the Khans, everything of high culture and technology that ever entered circulation in Russia was stolen or copied from other cultures. At various times in Russian history, leaders (like Peter the Great) sought to import, copy, or emulate things from the West that were better than their domestic production. I don't believe that Russia was ever "amongst the most civilized and cultured peoples in all of human history." That's the Russian narrative which I think objective historical study tempers a good bit.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 12:40:27 PM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
lol, just restart your defense industry and compete, eventually they will realize it is good for their economy and their own defense.

Not our fault you like our products.




View Quote


Forgive me for my ignorance but isn’t BAE a British company? Seems like they make a lot of our stuff from reading the news.

@AllmightyTallest
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 12:40:39 PM EDT
[#11]
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Originally Posted By 4xGM300m:
https://twitter.com/jesusfroman

If you are interested what's happening in the PLA, follow this guy.

Rabbit hole warning!
View Quote

Thanks--something else to distract me .  Glad it's in Spanish, I can point my friends and relatives there when they ask about Ukraine, as I don't know shit from Shinola about it.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 12:43:17 PM EDT
[#12]
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

I would argue that Russia today is more closely aligned with most of Russian history than you suggest. Invasion, rape, murder, plunder, conquest, oppression, and abuse are Russian historical norms. Russia's cultural origin is the Khans. Like the Khans, everything of high culture and technology that ever entered circulation in Russia was stolen or copied from other cultures. At various times in Russian history, leaders (like Peter the Great) sought to import, copy, or emulate things from the West that were better than their domestic production. I don't believe that Russia was ever "amongst the most civilized and cultured peoples in all of human history." That's the Russian narrative which I think objective historical study tempers a good bit.
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:
Originally Posted By lycurgus:
There is no difference between Putin's Russia and the Russian led Soviet Union. Remove Putin and his coterie of sycophants and nothing changes in Russia; there will still be social, cultural, and political disease.

What happens culturally and politically in Russia is not some external import, the removal of which will return Russia to it rightful place amongst the most civilized and cultured peoples in all of human history. What is happening in Russia today is what happened in Russia decades ago; it is an internal disease.

I would argue that Russia today is more closely aligned with most of Russian history than you suggest. Invasion, rape, murder, plunder, conquest, oppression, and abuse are Russian historical norms. Russia's cultural origin is the Khans. Like the Khans, everything of high culture and technology that ever entered circulation in Russia was stolen or copied from other cultures. At various times in Russian history, leaders (like Peter the Great) sought to import, copy, or emulate things from the West that were better than their domestic production. I don't believe that Russia was ever "amongst the most civilized and cultured peoples in all of human history." That's the Russian narrative which I think objective historical study tempers a good bit.


"Russia's cultural origin is the Khans"

lol
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 12:58:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea] [#13]
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

Is there any estimate for the value for dollar that China's defense spending gets versus the US? We spend so much on DEI, sensitivity training, benefits, benefits for contractors, while China gets much more dollars direct to weapons & action. I would guess that China spending half of what the US spends gets them more than the US gets in terms of persons under arms, weapons procured for use & arsenal, live training, etc, but I don't know any quantification.
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Because China doesn’t disclose specific weapons acquisitions numbers there no way to have a baseline to try to figure that out, they don’t share much so I’ve never trusted western estimates
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:04:37 PM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By exDefensorMilitas:


"Russia's cultural origin is the Khans"

lol
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Originally Posted By exDefensorMilitas:
Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:
Originally Posted By lycurgus:
There is no difference between Putin's Russia and the Russian led Soviet Union. Remove Putin and his coterie of sycophants and nothing changes in Russia; there will still be social, cultural, and political disease.

What happens culturally and politically in Russia is not some external import, the removal of which will return Russia to it rightful place amongst the most civilized and cultured peoples in all of human history. What is happening in Russia today is what happened in Russia decades ago; it is an internal disease.

I would argue that Russia today is more closely aligned with most of Russian history than you suggest. Invasion, rape, murder, plunder, conquest, oppression, and abuse are Russian historical norms. Russia's cultural origin is the Khans. Like the Khans, everything of high culture and technology that ever entered circulation in Russia was stolen or copied from other cultures. At various times in Russian history, leaders (like Peter the Great) sought to import, copy, or emulate things from the West that were better than their domestic production. I don't believe that Russia was ever "amongst the most civilized and cultured peoples in all of human history." That's the Russian narrative which I think objective historical study tempers a good bit.


"Russia's cultural origin is the Khans"

lol

The Russians (really Muscovians) got their start as the loyal enforcers and tribute-collectors for the Mongol Khans, and spent around 300 years under their rule.  For example, Russian hero Alexander Nevsky was the Mongols’ bitch.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:08:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Saltwater-Hillbilly] [#15]
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:

Because China doesn’t disclose specific weapons acquisitions there no way to have a baseline to try to figure that out
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:
Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

Is there any estimate for the value for dollar that China's defense spending gets versus the US? We spend so much on DEI, sensitivity training, benefits, benefits for contractors, while China gets much more dollars direct to weapons & action. I would guess that China spending half of what the US spends gets them more than the US gets in terms of persons under arms, weapons procured for use & arsenal, live training, etc, but I don't know any quantification.

Because China doesn’t disclose specific weapons acquisitions there no way to have a baseline to try to figure that out


Not to mention the whole constellation of "state-owned enterprises", universities, and local governments that are required to essentially support anything the PLA (to include the PLAN and PLAAF) needs/requirements "at cost", with the "cost" determined by the Central Military Committee of the Chinese Communist Party, not by accountants or manufacturing experts.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:11:10 PM EDT
[#16]
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

Notice how the vehicles are labeled with prominent flags showing country of origin. "See! All of NATO is against us! We fight heroically against 87 countries to save our lands!"
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

Notice how the vehicles are labeled with prominent flags showing country of origin. "See! All of NATO is against us! We fight heroically against 87 countries to save our lands!"


The Russians still believe they won WW2 on their own, when this war ends, they will believe they won it against the whole NATO.



Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:12:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lieh-tzu] [#17]
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Originally Posted By exDefensorMilitas:
"Russia's cultural origin is the Khans"

lol
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https://www.thoughtco.com/what-was-the-golden-horde-195330
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde

The Khans ruled Russia longer than the Communists.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:39:36 PM EDT
[#18]
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Originally Posted By rbblrwsr:
So Ukraine has a system that can transmit video from ~100km behind the lines?

If so, why reveal it?
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Originally Posted By rbblrwsr:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Originally Posted By Prime:



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfGwuJWEAAikJE?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfG1FdXsAEL3g8?format=jpg&name=medium


No doubt, that is is the supposedly extinct M39 Block I variant with 950 submunitions.  That big black plume could be the ATACMS rocket body plowing into the edge of the area after it released the bomblets.  I wonder what other weapons we have in the pantry that we keep in working order in storage the enemy doesn't know about.

This also explains the over 1000 claimed Russian dead and injured per day with low vehicle kill claims if they are hitting concentrations like this.
So Ukraine has a system that can transmit video from ~100km behind the lines?

If so, why reveal it?



Nothing new about that, they have shown that they have drones that can see far enough behind the lines like that last year and pick off an S-400 site.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:42:28 PM EDT
[#19]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

But the more Britian is dependent on US weapons, the more dickless, cowardly US diplomats can influence and strangle Brit. foreign policy. If the US made Storm Shadow, I bet ZERO would have arrived in Ukraine.
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
lol, just restart your defense industry and compete, eventually they will realize it is good for their economy and their own defense.

Not our fault you like our products.





But the more Britian is dependent on US weapons, the more dickless, cowardly US diplomats can influence and strangle Brit. foreign policy. If the US made Storm Shadow, I bet ZERO would have arrived in Ukraine.



That is one of the reasons I encourage the competition in Europe.  If you make it, you get to make the rules on how it is used without having to ask another owner.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:48:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest] [#20]
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Originally Posted By weptek911:


Forgive me for my ignorance but isn’t BAE a British company? Seems like they make a lot of our stuff from reading the news.

@AllmightyTallest
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Originally Posted By weptek911:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
lol, just restart your defense industry and compete, eventually they will realize it is good for their economy and their own defense.

Not our fault you like our products.






Forgive me for my ignorance but isn’t BAE a British company? Seems like they make a lot of our stuff from reading the news.

@AllmightyTallest


Yes you are correct, but it is based off of the various manufacturing licenses we purchase.  It goes both ways.  If the British make something good, or the Norwegians, we might purchase production licence agreements for the parts and that gets worked out in a deal.  Same with the Israeli's and US Raytheon making certain missile interceptors for each other, or Boing working with Rafael in Israel on the Arrow-3 missile production.

But it would not be a bad thing if these countries wanted to go on their own on some of these projects and develop unique systems and keep those projects just for their own defense.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:53:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest] [#21]






Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:55:46 PM EDT
[#22]

Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:57:18 PM EDT
[#23]


Link Posted: 5/1/2024 1:58:09 PM EDT
[#24]
lol, so pathetic.

Link Posted: 5/1/2024 2:00:48 PM EDT
[#25]
If posted earlier I missed it, but Ukraine to begin operating F-16 on May 5th.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-f16-fighter-jets-air-force-1895964
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 2:01:10 PM EDT
[#26]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

Cool. But when is the 35mm cannon arriving? 50mm?
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



The best just keeps getting better.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfhZfNXQAAXaKr?format=jpg&name=large

Cool. But when is the 35mm cannon arriving? 50mm?


They are testing it.

The Army's Testing of a New 50mm Cannon for Bradley Replacement

Link Posted: 5/1/2024 2:02:25 PM EDT
[#27]

Link Posted: 5/1/2024 2:08:56 PM EDT
[#28]

GUR named the approximate stocks of missiles in Russia, as well as the dynamics of their production:

• 40 Zircon: production rates - up to 10 missiles/month;
• 400 Onyx/Onyx-M: production rate – up to 10 missiles/month.
• 270 Kalibr: production rate – 30-40 missiles/month.
• 45 Kh-69: production rate – 1-3 missiles/month.

❗️As of April, Russia has about 950 missiles with a range of over 350 kilometers.
View Quote


Link Posted: 5/1/2024 2:14:47 PM EDT
[#29]
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Originally Posted By 4xGM300m:


The Russians still believe they won WW2 on their own, when this war ends, they will believe they won it against the whole NATO.



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Originally Posted By 4xGM300m:
Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

Notice how the vehicles are labeled with prominent flags showing country of origin. "See! All of NATO is against us! We fight heroically against 87 countries to save our lands!"


The Russians still believe they won WW2 on their own, when this war ends, they will believe they won it against the whole NATO.





Strategically, unless Russia manages to pull a rabbit out of the hat, they have lost.  NATO is both larger and more hostile than it was before the invasion now and is right on the Russian frontier across all of Europe with only Belarus still in the Russian orbit, and the Ruskies have triggered a rearmament program among potential adversaries the size and scale they cannot hope to sustainably match.  Economically, they have destroyed over 50 years of "trade diplomacy" dating back to the late Soviet era while alienating their closest and wealthiest customers.  In status, they are now clearly seen by friend and foe alike as unstable and subservient to the Chinese.  Diplomatically, they have acquired (or in the case of Cuba and Best Korea, reacquired) allies such as South Africa, Venezuela, Niger, Iran, and so forth (most of which are noxious regimes and unstable economic basket cases) which is triggering violent pushback from players such as Israel, South Korea, Japan, Britain, Australia, the richer parts of the Arab world, and a bunch of others, and they cannot sustain their current industrial base without outside assistance.  Everyone is re-leaning willfully forgotten historical lessons about why it is bad to trust the Russians.  Many of the folks in Russia and the near-adjacent regions who were nostalgic for Soviet times are either currently receiving or are fixin' to receive remedial lessons on why at the time the Soviet Union was considered bad and why almost everyone was glad it went away.  On the battlefield, the Russians are praying for some miracle breakthrough that either allows them to seize Odessa or triggers a general Ukrainian collapse across the entire spectrum.  These outcomes at this point are extraordinarily unlikely and, absent a comprehensive change of government, Russia will most likely stumble through the rest of the 21st century as an economic and demographic basket case provided they even exist in something resembling their current form in two decades and no one has taken advantage of their damaged economic and military power to roll them for their natural resources in key regions.  Operationally, they still have some advantages, but most of these advantages have expiration dates in the next 24-36 months.  Now, getting some sort of "victory" that can be sold to the average "Ivan on the Street" who desperately wants some sort of win is probably more doable, but the Armenia/Azerbaijan fight and other flare-ups in which Russian "peacekeepers' proved as worthless as their UN counterparts is likely at least as damaging to them internationally as the US run from Afghanistan was for us.  Anything short of seizing and holding all of Ukraine will have destroyed the myth of Russian invincibility regarding ground combat and everyone else at this point, friend and foe alike, is taking notes.  I doubt that their Arms Export industry will recover anytime soon.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 2:25:35 PM EDT
[#30]
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

This is worth singling out and repeating. Russia is a terrorist state, ruled by war criminals. There is no difference between Putin's Russia and Hitler's Germany. The failure of western leaders to confront Russia appropriately is astonishing. After so many articles like this one, so many repeated confirmation of Russia's gross violations of human rights, international laws and treaties like Geneva Conventions, all free nations should be pushing for Russia to be expelled from every international body except the UN GA. Take their seat on the Security Council until they stop the war and re-establish their commitment to the Geneva Conventions with a new ratification.
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10:10
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 2:59:17 PM EDT
[#31]
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Originally Posted By Circuits:
If posted earlier I missed it, but Ukraine to begin operating F-16 on May 5th.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-f16-fighter-jets-air-force-1895964
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My bet is they actually start on May the Fourth.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:03:38 PM EDT
[#32]
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Originally Posted By Capta:

My bet is they actually start on May the Fourth.
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My bet is that they have flying in UA for weeks, taking "baby" steps
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:06:00 PM EDT
[#33]
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

Is there any estimate for the value for dollar that China's defense spending gets versus the US? We spend so much on DEI, sensitivity training, benefits, benefits for contractors, while China gets much more dollars direct to weapons & action. I would guess that China spending half of what the US spends gets them more than the US gets in terms of persons under arms, weapons procured for use & arsenal, live training, etc, but I don't know any quantification.
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100%. Not to mention the FACT that the USA does the research, development, and design and China just copies it saving them tons.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:07:13 PM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By Capta:

My bet is they actually start on May the Fourth.
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Originally Posted By Capta:
Originally Posted By Circuits:
If posted earlier I missed it, but Ukraine to begin operating F-16 on May 5th.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-f16-fighter-jets-air-force-1895964

My bet is they actually start on May the Fourth.



Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:11:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Evintos] [#35]
War in Ukraine: Why is the EU still buying Russian gas? Arthur Sullivan April 29, 2024

According to the data provider Kpler, Russia is now the EU's second-biggest LNG supplier. LNG imports from Russia accounted for 16% of the EU's total LNG supply in 2023, a 40% increase compared with the amount Russia sold to the EU in 2021.

...

In February, Austria confirmed that 98% of its gas imports in December 2023 were from Russia. The government says it wants to break the contract with Gazprom as early as possible, but EU sanctions on Russian gas are necessary for that to happen legally.

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S&P Global - Europe is set to continue to rely on Russian LNG in short term - 10 Apr 2024 | 11:12 UTC

France, Spain and Belgium were the European countries to take in most of the volumes in 2024 so far, while Russian LNG sendout to Spain represented 32% of the 1.56 million mt of LNG imported into the country in 2024 so far.

LNG imports were higher for Belgium but lower for France, of which Russian LNG imports represented 49% and 27% of the total imports, respectively.

"Spain has no plans to diversify away from Russian LNG," David Lewis, an LNG analyst with S&P Global said. "[Spain] cannot void contracts without the government intervening and the government said it won't intervene in the contract between two private companies."
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Russia Ramps Up Grain Exports, Challenges Australia's Dominance in China

Russia has dramatically increased its grain exports to China, significantly undercutting Australia's longstanding dominance in the sector.

This development follows a series of economic sanctions imposed by Australia on Russia, which seems to have responded with a commercial counterblow that reshapes trade dynamics in the Asia-Pacific region.
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Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:12:30 PM EDT
[#36]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
100%. Not to mention the FACT that the USA does the research, development, and design and China just copies it saving them tons.
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Probably the greatest transfer of wealth in human history.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:16:12 PM EDT
[#37]








Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:17:39 PM EDT
[#38]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

100%. Not to mention the FACT that the USA does the research, development, and design and China just copies it saving them tons.
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:

Is there any estimate for the value for dollar that China's defense spending gets versus the US? We spend so much on DEI, sensitivity training, benefits, benefits for contractors, while China gets much more dollars direct to weapons & action. I would guess that China spending half of what the US spends gets them more than the US gets in terms of persons under arms, weapons procured for use & arsenal, live training, etc, but I don't know any quantification.

100%. Not to mention the FACT that the USA does the research, development, and design and China just copies it saving them tons.


They also tend to cut corners and not even copy very well, and poor crew training is a factor

https://battlemachines.org/2023/07/17/are-chinese-naval-ships-poorly-designed/

The pace at which the Chinese Navy is building new surface combatants and commissioning them is mind blowing. They are commissioning multiple massive surface combatants and a few submarines every year and have sustained this pace since the early 2010s. They recently overtook the US Navy as the world’s largest navy in terms of fleet size. While the US Navy retains a qualitative edge, the Chinese navy’s numbers are a big worry for everyone in their vicinity.  


The question generally asked though is, while on paper, the Type 052D and Type 055 are extremely capable vessels, are they actually as good in practice? One interesting thing I learnt recently is that the crews at getting to command positions fairly quickly. While commanders in western navies spend years if not decades rising through different officer ranks towards their first command, it seems to be far shorter in the Chinese Navy. The Commanding Officer of a Type 055 only had 7 years of service. The CO was commanding one of the most potent destroyers in service today but had spent just a third of a time it takes a US Navy officer to become a CO. What does it say about officers and crew in lower ranking positions? You can guess. But then, just how good are the ships?

The earliest notions of poor designs I had heard off came from Chinese forums mentioning that ships deployed to the Indian ocean for “Anti-Piracy” ops had issues. These issues ranged from lack of a maintenance first designs, where machinery spaces were not designed for easy maintenance and / or disassembly. Posters on the forum claimed that these had been rectified in the following iterations of the Type 054A and Type 052C, D. The second issue I read about was that doors facing to the sea opened inwards, as in if the lock fails, a big wave could open the door and flood the compartment. This is major oversight in ship design as China’s own waters see storms several times a year.  


Trusted naval analyst Xavier Vavasseur [@xaviervav] had the opportunity to visit a Type 052DL destroyer named Nanning. Now remember, 052DLs are the latest variant of the 052D and feature an elongated flight deck, thus a longer overall length. We can assume that these are the latest specimen of the Chinese naval design culture. He was happy to see the ship in excellent condition and goes on to compare it to ships about to delivered to navies for commissioning. The analyst was surprised to see just a couple of water tight doors / compartments between the area he was allowed to tour. He also noticed a severe lack of damage control and fire fighting equipment. What was worse was that fuel for the RHIB and torpedoes had no blast doors between them. He goes on to compare the Chinese destroyer to the other naval vessels he has visited, stating that other ships were littered with fire fighting gear and water tight doors. Below is the area he is talking about    






There is a third interesting point I wanted to make. The sisters Liaoning and Shandong still largely retain the remnants of the angled P-700 seen on the Admiral Kuznetsov. It was widely expected that Liaoning’s refit might have cleared out that space for use as hangar or storage space, but it isnt clear at this point. Shandong, which was purpose built and has several other modifications over the base Kuznetsov design, still has this area plated off per @AlexLuck9. Its weird when a carrier built from scratch isnt modified to get rid of vestigial features.    




 Then there is the issue of one of Fujian’s aircraft lifts lining up with its catapult no. 1, making its use impossible when an aircraft is being prepared from launch. If it is used during usage of Cat 1, anything on the left might get blown off or heat damage due to jet blast deflected by jet blast deflectors. On all western carriers, the first aircraft lift on the port side is comfortable behind the jet blast deflectors of catapult no. 1. Please checkout the image below, via HI Sutton and Naval News.  




 This shows a severe lack of damage control culture. The podcast rightfully mentions that the damage control procedures are not developed but written in blood.

Ask that to Royal Navy’s Admiral David Beatty, who lost multiple battlecruisers at the Battle of Jutland in WW1 due to poor ammuition handling practises. Ask this to US Navy’s tin can sailors of the Taffey 3 at the Battle off Samar that were forced to patch holes faster than the Japanese were poking into their ships. These tin can sailors due to their valor, tactics and battle damage practises turned away a faaar larger, faaar more capable Imperial Japanese flotilla. Here Yamato, the world’s largest battleship, alone out displaced the entire American force.  


Battle damage control is cruicial to saving ships during combat. If a ship combusts itself at first contact with enemy, your fleet will dwindle down fast. You need ships to live and fight another day. What is far more important than a simple hull is the crew. Every ship needs 100s of trained personnel to operate them. The crew is far more important than a ship. A new ship with a poor crew is worse than an older ship with a well trained crew. Looks like, while the Chinese navy ships are great on paper, they miss out on the finer details cruicial at making good ships.

To maintain transparency, I came across this thread with videos of the interior of a Type 052DL. What I can confirm is

There seems to be no door between torpedoes and RHIB.
Fire fighting equipment is present at regular intervals in areas covered.  


Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:19:13 PM EDT
[#39]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

100%. Not to mention the FACT that the USA does the research, development, and design and China just copies it saving them tons.
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2010. Tractor Forums - John Deere building a factory in china
2014 - Courthouse news: A chinese company brazenly sold counterfeit John Deere products

Many such cases!
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:19:40 PM EDT
[#40]
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Originally Posted By 4xGM300m:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMf15HyWMAA2med?format=jpg&name=900x900



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMhBHkRXkAAHPSF?format=jpg&name=900x900

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Dang, one of our information sources is participating against the Russians, good on him.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:22:25 PM EDT
[#41]
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:

Had this conversation recently. The reality is that is the real cost JUST to address China and the public is gonna freak out when they hear that especially when it would be required each year over a 4 year period and again that’s just to address China which is not our only threat as this thread is describing.

Worst part though is we’ve lost deterrence given the timeline but we’re still a day late and a dollar short for war fighting - again in just one theater which I doubt WW3 would be limited to again as described by the coordination of the axis in this thread.

But beyond $ equipment etc you also need personnel and black lesbian Navy SEALs Walruses aren’t going to cut it
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



Hear me out, we should just round up the US defense budget to 1 trillion per year.  
https://static.mfah.com/images/rockwell---freedom-of-speech.5785100894739247496.jpg?width=782

Had this conversation recently. The reality is that is the real cost JUST to address China and the public is gonna freak out when they hear that especially when it would be required each year over a 4 year period and again that’s just to address China which is not our only threat as this thread is describing.

Worst part though is we’ve lost deterrence given the timeline but we’re still a day late and a dollar short for war fighting - again in just one theater which I doubt WW3 would be limited to again as described by the coordination of the axis in this thread.

But beyond $ equipment etc you also need personnel and black lesbian Navy SEALs Walruses aren’t going to cut it

FIFY!

In all seriousness I think this is a perfect time to implement the Arsenal ship program.

I know a lot of people poo poo the idea but it makes a lot of sense to me and I really like the idea of using medium size ships loaded with a mix of lots and lots of stealthy and non stealthy missiles to punch a hole in China is AssHo defenses with lots and lots of ADA missiles to help defend the fleet while the air wings bring the pain to China is Ass Ho.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:25:39 PM EDT
[#42]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:


They are testing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF32HJoc7_U
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Very cool. I'm still not sure which is better: 35 or 50mm.

Side note: At the beginning of WWII, 50mm was considered a heavy tank gun caliber.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:27:24 PM EDT
[#43]
15 minutes ago.

Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:29:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

Very cool. I'm still not sure which is better: 35 or 50mm.

Side note: At the beginning of WWII, 50mm was considered a heavy tank gun caliber.
View Quote

The impetus for the upgunning was based on the intelligence telling us that our IFV and LAV guns could not penetrate the frontal armor on Russian IFVs
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:41:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest] [#45]
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Originally Posted By BigGrumpyBear:

FIFY!

In all seriousness I think this is a perfect time to implement the Arsenal ship program.

I know a lot of people poo poo the idea but it makes a lot of sense to me and I really like the idea of using medium size ships loaded with a mix of lots and lots of stealthy and non stealthy missiles to punch a hole in China is AssHo defenses with lots and lots of ADA missiles to help defend the fleet while the air wings bring the pain to China is Ass Ho.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigGrumpyBear:
Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



Hear me out, we should just round up the US defense budget to 1 trillion per year.  
https://static.mfah.com/images/rockwell---freedom-of-speech.5785100894739247496.jpg?width=782

Had this conversation recently. The reality is that is the real cost JUST to address China and the public is gonna freak out when they hear that especially when it would be required each year over a 4 year period and again that’s just to address China which is not our only threat as this thread is describing.

Worst part though is we’ve lost deterrence given the timeline but we’re still a day late and a dollar short for war fighting - again in just one theater which I doubt WW3 would be limited to again as described by the coordination of the axis in this thread.

But beyond $ equipment etc you also need personnel and black lesbian Navy SEALs Walruses aren’t going to cut it

FIFY!

In all seriousness I think this is a perfect time to implement the Arsenal ship program.

I know a lot of people poo poo the idea but it makes a lot of sense to me and I really like the idea of using medium size ships loaded with a mix of lots and lots of stealthy and non stealthy missiles to punch a hole in China is AssHo defenses with lots and lots of ADA missiles to help defend the fleet while the air wings bring the pain to China is Ass Ho.



I like the idea as well.

Though not a dedicated arsenal ship, there are small box launchers that can be put on deck to carry extra missiles currently on offer.

Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:43:26 PM EDT
[#46]
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Originally Posted By 4xGM300m:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMf15HyWMAA2med?format=jpg&name=900x900



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMhBHkRXkAAHPSF?format=jpg&name=900x900

View Quote


Tell him "God Bless!" and send him out best!
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:50:37 PM EDT
[#47]
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:

Quincy institute put out a rebuttal in Forbes and even Quincy's guy said "at most China spends half what the USA spends on defense" well half is a lot fucking more than China tells the world its spending which belies common sense when Beijing announces increased defense spending year after year like in March 2024 " 7%" despite their economy wobbling

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhartung/2024/04/30/new-estimate-of-chinese-military-spending-doesnt-hold-water/?sh=6a4c995e3182
View Quote

Yeah, they could kick our ass at .mil spending if they go 20-30% of their economy.

Luckily Taiwan constitutes a amphibious invasion scale and complexity that makes Normandy look like a trip to Disneyland.
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 3:57:05 PM EDT
[#48]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



Nothing new about that, they have shown that they have drones that can see far enough behind the lines like that last year and pick off an S-400 site.
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Originally Posted By rbblrwsr:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Originally Posted By Prime:



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfGwuJWEAAikJE?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMfG1FdXsAEL3g8?format=jpg&name=medium


No doubt, that is is the supposedly extinct M39 Block I variant with 950 submunitions.  That big black plume could be the ATACMS rocket body plowing into the edge of the area after it released the bomblets.  I wonder what other weapons we have in the pantry that we keep in working order in storage the enemy doesn't know about.

This also explains the over 1000 claimed Russian dead and injured per day with low vehicle kill claims if they are hitting concentrations like this.
So Ukraine has a system that can transmit video from ~100km behind the lines?

If so, why reveal it?



Nothing new about that, they have shown that they have drones that can see far enough behind the lines like that last year and pick off an S-400 site.
Well shit, read almost 4000 pages of the other thread and either missed it - or forgot
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 4:02:27 PM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 5/1/2024 4:02:36 PM EDT
[#50]






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