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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:57:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FreefallRet]
[#1]
Originally Posted By banzai70: Opinions pro or con are welcome. |
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:57:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By primuspilum: It was part of a larger project IMO. Naive in conception and incompetent in execution. I think they thought that once Iraq was a functional liberal democracy, they could start a cascade of regime changes with Iraq as the impetus...turning the whole region into "democracies". I also think they thought, at the time, that Iran was on the verge of revolution and Iraq would be a strong push in that direction. Yeah, it was part of a larger project. The failing point is that depended on the people of the region acting sorta like our Founders did. But that's dependent on culture. The whole enterprise was a failure to understand culture. That failing continues. Obama and Biden both represent failures to grasp this, although their mistakes are different. Bush had conviction, and followed through. The Clinton/Obama/Biden approach has no conviction (of that sort), and only wants domestic power. Hence they lack follow through, they will jump ship if they think that will improve their election chances. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:58:18 PM EDT
[#3]
It was a shockingly stupid waste of innocent people. |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:59:01 PM EDT
[#4]
IF we had to do it (invade) then, dammit, turn the full force of the United States Military on them. Wage total war as was done during WW2.
Thousands of fine young men answered their country's call in good faith only to have their government fuck them the same way the Vietnam vets were fucked. |
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:59:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex_F: All war is a waste. The best we can hope for is temporary benefits that aren't outweighed by the human cost. War is just about defeating the enemy and imposing your will. It's natural, and will never end because of the human will to dominate others and not be dominated. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:59:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Bad choice. Horrible choice even. One of the most overt examples of personal financial interests running things.
Frankly, in a perfect world Bush and Rove and anyone else with interests beyond national security should have hanged for it. It cost American lives for little if no positives, and probably a number of negatives beyond American deaths. (Of course in my perfect world the majority of current politicians would be hanged for treason because of their conflation between duty to America and their personal interests...) |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:59:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Originally Posted By banzai70: Opinions pro or con are welcome. Invasion of Iraq happened in 1991. Then we laid siege to Baghdad for 10 years. You must be referring to the invasion of Baghdad in 2001. We had already been there for some time. 
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:00:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AzzFaceKillah]
[#8]
The first? We defeated the 5th largest army in the world in 100 hours of ground combat. 2nd we probably killed even more but that was a stupid endeavor . Easily we killed 100:1.
Same as Afghanistan, or Vietnam we one every battle, still lost the war. |
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:00:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kraquine: It was a shockingly stupid waste of innocent people. You are just drinking Obama's bathwater. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:00:54 PM EDT
[#10]
When you look at Japan and Viet Nam, you see countries that turned it around despite being decimated by war. Iraq, slim possibility for a productive future if they get in bed with Iran. Afghanistan, not a chance they enter modern polite society in my lifetime.
Total waste of time and lucre. A shameful waste of lives and maimed vets. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:02:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: All that mattered was the George W got Saddam for his daddy. I am still trying to figure out what Iraq had to do with the GWOT. This. And…  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:02:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: Should have Nuked Baghdad. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: Originally Posted By banzai70: Opinions pro or con are welcome. Are you insinuating that if he did not serve he does not have the right to ask this question or care about the sacrifices made in American lives. His question is legitimate and an honest one. Btw than you for your service.  RLTW |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:03:57 PM EDT
[#13]
It didn't result in communists occupying half of Europe for 50 years and murdering millions so by some metrics it had a better outcome than WW2.
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:05:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _Nataraja_: Bad choice. Horrible choice even. One of the most overt examples of personal financial interests running things. Frankly, in a perfect world Bush and Rove and anyone else with interests beyond national security should have hanged for it. It cost American lives for little if no positives, and probably a number of negatives beyond American deaths. (Of course in my perfect world the majority of current politicians would be hanged for treason because of their conflation between duty to America and their personal interests...) The decision behind it was likely very principled. Principles get you into trouble because they drive you. Simple self interest causes you to change course when things get hard. The Clinton policy was feckless self interest. He got us into wars with easy exits. He didn't commit to anything long and difficult. But the downside is that he telegraphed weakness so long term it was bad policy. It was great for the short term goal of polling and re-election. Bush's war got us Obama, so it had long term consequences, too. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:07:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AzzFaceKillah: I said that above. I think we just used those men for test bed dummies. Along with the Vietnam war . Which means me and some of my friends were and are just cannon fodder. It's the nature of war. But we would not have volunteered if we knew that. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:08:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Miles_Urbanus: The invasion wasn’t the problem. The lengthy occupation was. Some might suggest invading a sovereign nation unprovoked is a problem.. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:09:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By twistedcomrade: Total waste of lives and money. FUCK IRAQ |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:12:10 PM EDT
[#18]
 Anatolian Sessions - Qamuran |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:12:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Subpar: Without an expanded GWOT we wouldn't have Grunt Style gear, BRCC, brovets, brocivs, Travis Haley and his army of occular scientists and Magpul's Art of the Dynamic Carbine. Of course it was worth it.  |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:16:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Miles_Urbanus: The invasion wasn’t the problem. The lengthy occupation was. Same here. It would have been cheaper in lives and money to just stay long enough to kill Saddam and then pull out within a year. There is no long term victory there with the civilian population and their culture. It's always going to be a hot mess. The most bang for our buck would have been to kick the can down the road as hard as we could. Maybe we'd get a few years before it turned to shit again. If we could turn back the clock to the beginning of the occupation, maybe it would have been smarter to keep the Iraqi army and government on the payroll, possibly minus the Republican guard. They weren't that loyal to Saddam; they mostly just didn't want to starve or be killed by Saddam's state security. Better yet, a successful assassination of Saddam and his sons could have been the best cost effective solution. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:18:09 PM EDT
[#21]
The invasion may, and I emphasize may, have made sense at the time. Benefit of hindsight it seems much of the intelligence we were relying on was bogus. We saw what we wanted to see. But we had no exit strategy, no Plan B, really no idea what the hell we were going to do after we took out Saddam. We had the same issue with Desert Storm. Defeating Saddam was the easy part. All the later stuff, we suck at.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:19:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pallas]
[#22]
Regionally, it was a big mistake.
We could have cut a deal with Saddam, it would have cost less, and we could have balanced Iran. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:20:09 PM EDT
[#23]
By the way - still in Somalia 30 years later too
 Rachid Taha - Barra Barra (OST Black Hawk Down) (Official Video) |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:22:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By aggiesq: knowing what we know now, bad choice. but understandable at the time. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:24:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DKUltra: Huge waste of lives, time, money and resources. For better or worse Saddam kept things in check in that region. I like piss any dictators of crappy countries. They suppress their people which limits their economy and thus their use of resources. Their desire to have nukes is the problem. Not sure I ever believed the BS Bush and his ilk were floating about Iraq's nuke program. Both wars cost lives and destroyed the lives of brave US soldiers and others. Iraq was completely unnecessary. The invasion of Afghanistan was just, the nation building was the BS. Should have taken the major areas and left the rest to be bombed anytime more than five guys assembled with rifles. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:24:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: st0newall]
[#26]
when bush and crew said 'sadam has WMDs', i told a relative who was very conservative 'no he doesnt'. he had some programs and some gas and stuff that he used but most of what sadam supposedly had was a big bluff to scare iran. i got all kinds of arguments bout how wrong i was
bush basically disabled the order of the middle east. we got the castration of iraq, followed by the growth of iran as a regional power, along with ISIS, the arab spring and the mass migration of muslims to europe to escape all the craziness. afghanistan was almost as bad but its understandable why we went there though we never seem to learn that you cant nation build in countries where the populace are all savages. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:31:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Thread needs moar POLE!
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:35:01 PM EDT
[#28]
The entire strategy was a failure from the rip.
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:35:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DonS]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By st0newall: when bush and crew said 'sadam has WMDs', i told a relative who was very conservative 'no he doesnt'. he had some programs and some gas and stuff that he used but most of what sadam supposedly had was a big bluff to scare iran. i got all kinds of arguments bout how wrong i was bush basically disabled the order of the middle east. we got the castration of iraq, followed by the growth of iran as a regional power, along with ISIS, the arab spring and the mass migration of muslims to europe to escape all the craziness. afghanistan was almost as bad but its understandable why we went there though we never seem to learn that you cant nation build in countries where the populace are all savages. The mass migration was more Obama's fault, taking down Libya and the like, along with the pro refugee inclination in Europe. ISIS is largely Saddam's people going their natural direction. Saddam himself was becoming more Islamic. There's a general long trend in the ME of increased Islamic belief. It isn't clear that things would have been better if Saddam had been able to retain power. He wasn't exactly a stabilizing factor. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:36:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotigers: agree The US mil probably killed between 100,000-200,000 terrorists. Don’t worry They multiply. Many sons survived and now the grandsons want nothing more than vengeance. The supply of those fuckers is endless. |
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:36:47 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By delemorte: Some might suggest invading a sovereign nation unprovoked is a problem.. The nation that started a war with Iran, invaded Kuwait, and gassed it's own people? Oh, I'm all upset about its sovereign sensibilities. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:37:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Subpar: Without an expanded GWOT we wouldn’t have Grunt Style gear, BRCC, brovets, brocivs, Travis Haley and his army of occular scientists and Magpul’s Art of the Dynamic Carbine. Of course it was worth it.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:43:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DonS: War is just about defeating the enemy and imposing your will. It's natural, and will never end because of the human will to dominate others and not be dominated. Thank you for that stunning and brave comment. I hope you have the best possible day. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:48:59 PM EDT
[#34]
The real problem was Bush Sr's grudge with Saddam that went back to the 70's.
He fucked up US policy in the region throughout the 80's and then completely failed in his duty to American interests in dealing with the Iraq/Kuwait border oil dispute which lead directly to the invasion. If that hadn't happened, who knows? Maybe no 9/11. At the time, I thought we should have dropped four tactical nukes on Tora Bora, mopped up, and called it a day. W's administration is what broke the GOP and the Conservative Revolution. He had the opportunity to just KO the Dems but he blew all his political capital on Iraq and absolutely gutted the Republican bench by turning on anyone who disagreed and straight up betraying many of them. We complain all the time now about the left/deep state owning all the institutions but that was still salvageable before the W era purges and defections, first all the Reagan people and Iraq dissenters and then the neocons themselves...and then there was TARP and QE in response to a financial crisis everyone saw coming too. The party, the country, and the world have been wandering around leaderless for 20 years as a result. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:51:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotigers: agree The US mil probably killed between 100,000-200,000 terrorists. People say we haven't had another 9/11, but just wait til Achmed clicks off a vest at the Super Bowl, or some small town Friday night football game. It's gonna happen. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:01:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By runcible: https://i.imgur.com/jgu5JbK.jpg I don't support  .I don't support [y]. I support the Popcorn Industrial Complex. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:03:34 PM EDT
[#37]
I think the only benefit we got out of it was the war fighting experience and weapon systems that we developed. Otherwise I believe it was a colossal waste of money and American blood. Maybe in the future our advanced war fighting capabilities will save American lives.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:03:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MFP_4073]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AzSteven: This Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AzSteven: Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus: The invasion wasn’t the problem. The lengthy occupation was. This agree for both Iraq and Afghanistan. stretching the involvement across 4 Presidential administrations was nonsense one of the Principles of War is 'Objective'. you need to be able to define the reason for the conflict and a rough aim of the 'end state' after a few years -- it got VERY ambiguous with no one capable of describing the 'objective'. I will say : we got a razor sharp SOCOM as a result in any case. (though IMO at the expense of the conventional Army...) |
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:05:10 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex_F: Thank you for that stunning and brave comment. I hope you have the best possible day. But I'm right. War is just about imposing your will. The people who think they are peaceful have the same impulse to impose their will as any others. John Lennon's Imagine, a love song to communism, suggests ending religion and private property. That can't be imposed without force. All the Karen's, all those who support some form of political action, want their will imposed on others. If others don't comply it has to be forced. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:08:49 PM EDT
[#40]
A war conjured off of lies to execute a personal vendetta.
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:16:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K2QB3: The real problem was Bush Sr's grudge with Saddam that went back to the 70's. What was this grudge that went back to the 70s? |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:17:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Was against it then and against it now. Took a lot of flak over it, too. Didn't bother me then and doesn't bother me now.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:19:35 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fttam: We have three kids names from our town on a plaque, so that’s thing. I doubt that their families think that it was worth it. To be fair, at least Iraq is free. Or something. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:22:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By searchin4shacks: What was the end result? Was it worth the sacrifice that many made? Fuck no. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:23:51 PM EDT
[#45]
I’m neutral on the invasion itself. I don’t think we should have stayed…..but then again the strongman despot is what kept them in line.
Should have invaded Saudi Arabia. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:25:26 PM EDT
[#46]
I can still remember watching Gen. Powell shaking that small vial of stuff saying that Saddam had enough to kill everyone. We needed to go in and get it. lol.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:26:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blind_Squirrel: Wasn’t then Still isn’t Unless you were able to profit from said invasion Bingo |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:28:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: scuba_steve]
[#48]
[Deleted]
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IN, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:28:26 PM EDT
[#49]
Middle Eastern poon smells like RTV silicone. Change my mind.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:32:00 PM EDT
[#50]
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