User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
TN, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:04:33 PM EDT
Opinions pro or con are welcome.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:41:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By twistedcomrade: Total waste of lives and money. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:41:58 PM EDT
[#2]
All that mattered was the George W got Saddam for his daddy.
I am still trying to figure out what Iraq had to do with the GWOT. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:42:45 PM EDT
[#3]
I think this question can only be answered with another question...Is the state of affairs in the region better off today than it was when we went in?
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AK, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:44:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By buck19delta: All we accomplished in Afghanistan in 20 years was …..we took a poorly armed and poorly equipped taliban , and we fully equipped them with the very best weapons , optics, rifles, machine guns, explosives, night vision, thermal , body armor, trucks, apcs, that money could buy. We also made a bunch of corrupt shitbird afghans multimillionaires, and added a few zeros to a bunch of us politicians bank accounts. This. Afghanistan’s cities should have been carpet and fire bombed to rubble, as a warning to not fuck with the US. With no troops on the ground. I was a GWB fanboi when Iraq was invaded so at first I was like, he’ll yeah! It didn’t take too long before I began having second thoughts on the issue… To the point I think it was a huge mistake that cost many lives. Sad dam did keep things in check. If the WMDs thing was real, the US could have used intelligence to figure out where they were, then bombed the shit outta them. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:46:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Kind of yes. I shall now monolog:
I once had a military history prefessor named Bradford. He would start every lecture with his BAFL's: Bradfords Advise For Life. Dude was awesome. He once told us a story: In the 18/19-whatevers, when Mehan wrote SeaPower, and the US Followed that wise doctrine, we built the Great White Fleet, and sent it forth to the world, to show the flag. And put America on the map. In the Asia Pacific, at one village area, during shore-leave, the locals of that town greatly mistreated our sailers. Imprisonments, beatings, abuse, etc. This was before the pusification of America, and in an Era where reputation mattered. This cannot stand. So, the Captain/Admiral/HMFIC went back and had the fleet shell the town. I shit you not, he shelled the town. One small wrinkle. He very well may have shelled the wrong town. After that day, US sailers were never abused again during ports of call in that theater. Iraq, was kind of like that. It was a massive: Do Not Fuck With Us. More then that, it humiliated Russia to the point of utter dispare, and is claimed to be a contributor to the Soviet Collapse. Their greatest mililtary hardware in a major military power went toe to toe against the US MIlitary power, and were crushed so utterly, that the US lost more troops to poor diet and vehicle accidents, then actual combat, in the whole fucking war. It was beyond humiliating. (Read Chip Wars for further fascinating details on that). So, did we "need" to invade Iraq and was deposing Saddam really that beneficial to America directly? Meh, not really. Did it set the stage for the last 21 years that the USA will Fuck You Up - fuck yea it did. And coincidentally, we've had shockingly few US Terrorist events from that theater after the second invasion. Where we basically killed everybody. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:46:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryR0N: A lot of good men died and were maimed with very little to show for it. Quote HistoryR0N: A lot of good men died and were maimed with very little to show for it. Right at the end of the Bush Administration the government began drafting a document identifying veterans, many of whom were languishing in the dilapidated VA system, as a radicalized threat. To the USA's ruling class the American Nation is like the Longhorn Cattle after the range was fenced in, a stubborn and difficult creature that should be replaced with more fatter and more docile livestock at the earliest opportunity. Chewing up American fighting men certainly seems like it would have been a welcome bonus to the people who orchestrated that war. Clendennan: The 91 invasion is when it started in my mind, it just wasn’t obvious at the time jackthom8: Funny how times have changed, GD used to be so gungho about the war and it was taboo to even criticize Bush |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:46:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: All that mattered was the George W got Saddam for his daddy. I am still trying to figure out what Iraq had to do with the GWOT. It was part of a larger project IMO. Naive in conception and incompetent in execution. I think they thought that once Iraq was a functional liberal democracy, they could start a cascade of regime changes with Iraq as the impetus...turning the whole region into "democracies". I also think they thought, at the time, that Iran was on the verge of revolution and Iraq would be a strong push in that direction. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:47:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: killstick_engaged]
[#8]
Are you 100% VA disabled? then maybe it was worth it.
Otherwise no.  For the record, I always thought the war And the reasons we went in were fake and gay. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:49:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Only to Israel and the creators of "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm".
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:49:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: deadmau5er]
[#10]
Huge mistake. I was a big supporter at the time - regretful.
Easy to spot the ones who still thought it was a good idea to destabilize the entire middle east. They have a Ukrainian flag under their avi and still haven't learned anything. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:50:48 PM EDT
[#11]
We tried to put the US version of democracy in Vietnam.
It didn't happen. Maybe we learned from this one. Doubtful but what else is there left? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:50:53 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sitkashooter: Afghanistan’s cities should have been carpet and fire bombed to rubble, as a warning to not fuck with the US. With no troops on the ground. We needed to nuke Afghanistan and start with a clean concrete parking lot to build from. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:51:17 PM EDT
[#13]
I was wildly in favor of it early on.
In hindsight? It was a monumental waste of life and treasure. It accomplished little to no political good. It was a mistake from the beginning. And the beginning wasn't 2001 or 2003. What we did in the Middle East in the last ~20 years was by and large a continuation of the war that started at least as far back as June 1914 and possibly as far back as the 1860's. It's darned hard to nail down the exact moment at which WWI became inevitable, but I believe that WWI logically begat the scenarios that led to WWII and WWII virtually guaranteed everything that happened in the Middle East since then.  In the words of one amateur philosopher, "What's so civil about war, anyway?". |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:51:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By deadmau5er: Huge mistake. I was a big supporter at the time - regretful. Easy to spot the ones who still thought it was a good idea to destabilize the entire middle east. They have a Ukrainian flag under their avi and still haven't learned anything. No kidding. "We have always been at war with Eastasia." |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:52:54 PM EDT
[#15]
I said it when we started the bombing, I said it years into the fight circa 2008, and still say it now.
It was NEVER worth it. You can't install a method of government onto a country they're not willing to kill to install themselves. I got called every name back in 2008 about being a Bush hater, an isolationist, you name it. Matter of fact a guy back then named Ron Paul spoke and wrote about several of the issues we face today, including the war on terror and government overreach/spending. He pretty much addressed them all back then and seems to be have been correct. But everybody just blew him off as a kooky old man. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:58:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By killstick_engaged: Are you 100% VA disabled? then maybe it was worth it. Otherwise no. For the record, I always thought the war And the reasons we went in were fake and gay. @killstick_engaged, I'd like to know your military affiliation, if any, and length of service before I respond. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:00:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Well, my older brother came home with PTSD and committed suicide years later, so no it was not worth it for our family.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:00:18 PM EDT
[#18]
I learned, when our unit's mission was cancelled and the responsibility given to KBR / Halliburton, that the whole thing was more about making money for Dick Cheney and Co., rather than "freeing the Iraqi people".
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:01:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: rfoxtrot]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Kind of yes. I shall now monolog: I once had a military history prefessor named Bradford. He would start every lecture with his BAFL's: Bradfords Advise For Life. Dude was awesome. He once told us a story: In the 18/19-whatevers, when Mehan wrote SeaPower, and the US Followed that wise doctrine, we built the Great White Fleet, and sent it forth to the world, to show the flag. And put America on the map. In the Asia Pacific, at one village area, during shore-leave, the locals of that town greatly mistreated our sailers. Imprisonments, beatings, abuse, etc. This was before the pusification of America, and in an Era where reputation mattered. This cannot stand. So, the Captain/Admiral/HMFIC went back and had the fleet shell the town. I shit you not, he shelled the town. One small wrinkle. He very well may have shelled the wrong town. After that day, US sailers were never abused again during ports of call in that theater. Iraq, was kind of like that. It was a massive: Do Not Fuck With Us. More then that, it humiliated Russia to the point of utter dispare, and is claimed to be a contributor to the Soviet Collapse. Their greatest mililtary hardware in a major military power went toe to toe against the US MIlitary power, and were crushed so utterly, that the US lost more troops to poor diet and vehicle accidents, then actual combat, in the whole fucking war. It was beyond humiliating. (Read Chip Wars for further fascinating details on that). So, did we "need" to invade Iraq and was deposing Saddam really that beneficial to America directly? Meh, not really. Did it set the stage for the last 21 years that the USA will Fuck You Up - fuck yea it did. And coincidentally, we've had shockingly few US Terrorist events from that theater after the second invasion. Where we basically killed everybody. Tom Clancy is even quoted saying that his book red storm rising would have been a very different book if written post GW1. Looking back, both invasions were an incredible success. Everything else after that, not so much. A lieutenant colonel in the army one time once told me over lunch what he thought the solution was when I asked him the question. How do you fix Iraq? His answer was pretty simple, you need two generations. We got halfway there was all. Ultimately, those that don't want to be helped cannot be helped. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:02:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Miles_Urbanus: The invasion wasn’t the problem. The lengthy occupation was. This |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:03:24 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By aggiesq: knowing what we know now, bad choice. but understandable at the time. Not if you were paying attention. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:04:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jackthom8: Funny how times have changed, GD used to be so gungho about the war and it was taboo to even criticize Bush Our favorite thing to say was, "You can tell he really loves this country." |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:06:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By runcible: https://i.imgur.com/jgu5JbK.jpg I think we killed a lot of people. Well, I know that. I also think it was a testbed. So was DS. Vietnam very likely. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:06:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By primuspilum: Should we have done it? No. That said, after we decided to do it, we should have done it competently. Aside from success of the initial invasion, it was an undertaking of monumental incompetence. For ideological reasons, our leaders couldn't comprehend that our basic premise of turning Iraq into a western style liberal democracy was impossible. It's incompatible with their civilization, culture, priorities, etc. More importantly, it's not what they want. We wanted it for them. They didn't want it for themselves. On top of all of the above, a viable Saddam held the Iranians in check. Big mistake taking him down in that respect. That pretty much describes my feelings on the matter. Watching the lead up to it I didn't really understand why it needed to happen. GWB and Colin Powell said Saddam had a bunch of WMDs and I believed them to be credible, so I believed them. Now? Who the fuck knows whether or not he had WMDs. I've heard a bunch of opinions from people on both sides that claim they know for sure or saw it with their own eyes, but I haven't seen any actual proof. What happened after the invasion and the routing of the Ba'ath party wasn't worth a drop of American blood or a single ounce of treasure. My deployment to BIAP is one of the highlights of my military career because I felt like I was actually doing my job for a change, but in hindsight I suspect it was all a bunch of bullshit and the wrong people died there... 
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:07:55 PM EDT
[#25]
GWB managed to destroy the reputation of the United States and Republican party with one stone. Overall I rate it a Cluster.
Costs of the 20-year war on terror: $8 trillion and 900,000 deaths Costs of the U.S.-Led War in Iraq Since 2003 Killing Sadam and the oil that Dick Cheney was after weren't a total loss. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:17:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Nope,
Nor was the first one. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:19:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AzzFaceKillah]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gilly: That pretty much describes my feelings on the matter. Watching the lead up to it I didn't really understand why it needed to happen. GWB and Colin Powell said Saddam had a bunch of WMDs and I believed them to be credible, so I believed them. Now? Who the fuck knows whether or not he had WMDs. I've heard a bunch of opinions from people on both sides that claim they know for sure or saw it with their own eyes, but I haven't seen any actual proof. What happened after the invasion and the routing of the Ba'ath party wasn't worth a drop of American blood or a single ounce of treasure. My deployment to BIAP is one of the highlights of my military career because I felt like I was actually doing my job for a change, but in hindsight I suspect it was all a bunch of bullshit and the wrong people died there... I said that above. I think we just used those men for test bed dummies. Along with the Vietnam war . Which means me and some of my friends were and are just cannon fodder. It's the nature of war. But we would not have volunteered if we knew that. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:20:45 PM EDT
[#28]
I lost a lot there.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:21:20 PM EDT
[#29]
No, not worth it. Only good thing is that now our senior NCO's are hardened combat vets for the most part. We might need that in the coming years.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:27:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Having been involved in the kick off not as a grunt 100% not worth it. We destabilized a region, spent untold amounts of treasure, American blood was spilled, the innocent Iraqis who died (probably around a million), the destruction of that country, and what did we get a corrupt replacement government that is closer to Iran.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:37:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Hussein repeatedly and flagrantly broke the peace treaty.
We had to enforce it. Having said that, the execution of the aftermath was a dumpster fire |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:40:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Miles_Urbanus: The invasion wasn’t the problem. The lengthy occupation was. We never did an occupation. That's a key part of the issue. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:43:00 PM EDT
[#33]
The first time. Yes.
The second, no. But was still a better time then this banana Republic, LGBT echo chamber, pedo, corruption,.mentally ill government we have now. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:43:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vxtip545: Sadam literally flew those planes into the building himself, and loaded the planes with WMDs so that they could melt steel beams. Bush jr. had America's back. Mission Accomplished. https://media.makeameme.org/created/mission-accomplished-e2fad76d72.jpg Leftists didn't get the banner then, or now. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:44:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: A lot of good men died and were maimed with very little to show for it. Good men? Little to show for it? Korea. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:44:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: All that mattered was the George W got Saddam for his daddy. I am still trying to figure out what Iraq had to do with the GWOT. Bio, chem weapons and nuclear weapon development. One of the more retarded memes of this current generation is that Saddam Hussein kept the region stable. He was a constant source of instability, and we'll never know how bad things might have gotten had he been further emboldened and pressure from the UNSCR died down revealing zero resolve. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:46:11 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By aggiesq: knowing what we know now, bad choice. but understandable at the time. Understandable cause of the lies. Bush went looking for a reason to invade Iraq and not cause Iraq had shit to do with 9/11. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:46:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Clendennan: The 91 invasion is when it started in my mind, it just wasn’t obvious at the time Kuwait was invaded on August 2, 1990. 100,000 Iraqi soldiers overran the entire country in a matter of hours. This was the invasion that mattered. If you lived in Kuwait, you are very much in support of the US liberation. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:47:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Wish I had something positive to say , as always the Patriots suffer the most . The Neocon war mongers move on to their next contrived war .
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:48:40 PM EDT
[#40]
No. Ukraine won’t be either.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:49:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sjm1582002]
[#41]
The below was a full page ad taken out in the New York Times back in September 2002.
WAR WITH IRAQ IS NOT IN AMERICA'S NATIONAL INTEREST As scholars of international security affairs, we recognize that war is sometimes necessary to ensure our national security or other vital interests. We also recognize that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and that Iraq has defied a number of U.N. resolutions. But military force should be used only when it advances U.S. national interests. War with Iraq does not meet this standard. • Saddam Hussein is a murderous despot, but no one has provided credible evidence that Iraq is cooperating with al Qaeda. • Even if Saddam Hussein acquired nuclear weapons, he could not use them without suffering massive U.S. or Israeli retaliation. • The first Bush administration did not try to conquer Iraq in 1991 because it understood that doing so could spread instability in the Middle East, threatening U.S. interests. This remains a valid concern today. • The United States would win a war against Iraq, but Iraq has military options-chemical and biological weapons, urban combat-that might impose significant costs on the invading forces and neighboring states. • Even if we win easily, we have no plausible exit strategy. Iraq is a deeply divided society that the United States would have to occupy and police for many years to create a viable state . • Al Qaeda poses a greater threat to the U.S. than does Iraq. War with Iraq will jeopardize the campaign against al Qaeda by diverting resources and attention from that campaign and by increasing anti-Americanism around the globe. The United States should maintain vigilant containment of Iraq-using its own assets and the resources of the United Nations-and be prepared to invade Iraq if it threatens to attack America or its allies. That is not the case today. We should concentrate instead on defeating al Qaeda. Robe rt J. Art Brandeis University Richard K. Betts Columbia University Dale C. Copeland University of Virginia Michael C. Desch University of Kentucky Sumit Ganguly University of Texas Charles L. Glaser University of Chicago Alexander L. George Stanford University Richard K. Herrmann Ohio State University George C. Herring University of Kentucky Robert Jervis Columbia University Chaim Kaufmann Lehigh University Carl Kaysen MIT Elizabeth Kier University of Washington Deborah Larson UCLA Jack S. Levy Rutgers University Peter Liberman Queens College John J. Mearsheimer University of Chicago Steven E. Miller Harvard University Charles C. Moskos Northwestern University Robert A. Pape University of Chicago Barry R. Posen MIT Robert Powell UC-Berkeley George H. Quester University of Maryland Richard Rosecrance UCLA Thomas C. Schelling University of Maryland Randall L. Schweller Ohio State University Glenn H. Snyder University of North Carolina Jack L. Snyder Columbia University Shibley Telhami University of Maryland Stephen van Evera MIT Stephen M. Walt Harvard University Kenneth N. Waltz Columbia University Cindy Williams MIT |
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USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:49:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Crazyascanbe: Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Crazyascanbe: Originally Posted By mac130: You can’t help people, who won’t help themselves. No regrets though. We tried Did you just correct another man's service record? |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:50:13 PM EDT
[#43]
In 2002 I was opposed to it. 21 years later it’s still ongoing so make lemonade out of lemons. There’s no time travel or do overs so it is what it is like it or not.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:52:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: A lot of good men died and were maimed with very little to show for it. I would say most undeclared wars the USA has been involved in were the same result. David |
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CHN
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:52:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By aggiesq: knowing what we know now, bad choice. but understandable at the time. I'm not so sure. My impression at the time (I didn't catch all the hearings) was that the intel we had on weapon's programs was weak. There was no immediate threat. The Bush administration made the point that we could bring "democracy" and fix the region. Those objecting were said to have "soft bigotry". It felt nice to be able to point "bigotry" at the left but I had no reason to think the people there were ready for a true rule of law society. Absent the proper cultural basis democracy results in a shit show; either it falls to tyrants or to anarchy. I was hopeful that the Bushies were right about bringing democracy, but I wasn't confident. It did seem like they might be right during the "purple finger" phase, before the onset of sectarian violence. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:54:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sandbowl1980]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: A lot of good men died and were maimed with very little to show for it. Most every country in the middle east the west has attempted to help have in the end turned on us and attacked us. Nothing has changed and if anything it is worst. Especially in Afghanistan. The west just destabilized it even more. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:55:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Glad I didnt join the military
Glad I stayed as far away from that shitshow as I did Total abuse and waste of my generation of men that were in, or joined, the military after 9/11. All the GWOT vets I have known are all fucked up one way or another. They might have had better lives. I feel very sorry for them and I have spent years trying to help the ones I have met. Rich mans game. Was not worth it. Geopolitically we were better off with Saddam in charge, keeping the Iranians in check, and killing the terrorists in his own borders. We fucked everything up, but hey Halliburton and the rest all made billions and their kids weren't affected over at Rice or Columbia or UCLA so whatever. Rich mans game |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:55:36 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Subpar: Without an expanded GWOT we wouldn’t have Grunt Style gear, BRCC, brovets, brocivs, Travis Haley and his army of occular scientists and Magpul’s Art of the Dynamic Carbine. Of course it was worth it. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:55:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Was it worth it? Great question.
Answer. It doesn’t matter what we think. Good, Neutral, Bad is a worthless opinion because .gov could give a damn about what we think. It didn’t then and still doesn’t. If 100% of us thought the same way .gov would ignore us then as they still ignore us today. I know our military and contractors who lost their life literally and figuratively mattered. The men who now relive it in their sleep still matter. Everyone thought they were defending our country at first. So it was worth it. Second tours, survival instincts didn’t allow questions of ‘why’. “Doesn’t matter”, just survive. The living vets who are afflicted with everything from cancer to suicide. Nope, wasn’t worth it. It’s a great question all these years later. I only wish the question mattered. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:57:15 PM EDT
[#50]
All war is a waste. The best we can hope for is temporary benefits that aren't outweighed by the human cost.
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