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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 6:23:56 PM EDT
Hi All,
I just mounted my Vortex LPVO, zeroed it (at 36 Yds for now) and am thinking about which red dot to go with for my canted 45-degree backup sight. By the way, I had to remove my BUIS to allow mounting of the backup sight behind the ejection port. Two questions have come up: 1. Should I consider a smaller pistol-sized red dot? I honestly think a regular rifle-sized red dot is the way to go, but I'm interested in opinions. 2. I plan to mount this red dot so that it is aligned with the rear of the LPVO providing the same or similar eye relief versus mounting it forward of the ejection port. Any insights? Pros and cons? Much appreciated.... Jim |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 6:53:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Will it be your primary 1X sighting solution?
Does weight matter? Have you looked into mounts? (Some aren’t aligned with the bore so the zero is going to be off center.) What’s your budget? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 10:14:34 PM EDT
[#2]
I figure, if the optic fails my immediate need is close range engagements. So I have a big ol' outline on my front sight. I use magpul offsets and blitzkrieg sights
YMMV. I know a lot of people believe optics don't fail. I wish I lived in a world without fog or rain or condensation. But I live in the real world so if I bring the gun back up and find a foggy, muddy, or otherwise obscured optic I roll the gun and get to fuckin work https://www.blitzkriegcomponents.com/Blitzkrieg-Flat-Tritium-Circle-Dot-Sight-Post--Magpul-MBUS-PRO%C2%AE-Orange-Circle_p_233.html |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 10:21:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: s4s4u]
[#3]
Any insights? Pros and cons? Perception is key. A pistol red dot that is advertised @ (X)moa is when held at arms length typical for a pistol. If you move that same red dot closer to your eye it will "appear" larger, relative to the target. And, vice versa, FWIW |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 10:56:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Will it be your primary 1X sighting solution? Does weight matter? Have you looked into mounts? (Some aren’t aligned with the bore so the zero is going to be off center.) What’s your budget? OdieGreen, Yes, even though I called it a backup optic and unless someone convinces me otherwise, my plan is to make my red dot my primary short-range 1X optic. I would like to keep this red dot at moderate to light weight. The original primary sight, a Holosun HS512C, is available for use as the secondary/backup sight. Alignment of the mount is an excellent point! Right now I'm considering the Strike Industries Ambush 45-Degree Optic Mount. Need to check its mounting plate alignment with the bore. Budget is perhaps $500 or less for this red dot. Take care.... |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 11:07:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNC: I figure, if the optic fails my immediate need is close range engagements. So I have a big ol' outline on my front sight. I use magpul offsets and blitzkrieg sights YMMV. I know a lot of people believe optics don't fail. I wish I lived in a world without fog or rain or condensation. But I live in the real world so if I bring the gun back up and find a foggy, muddy, or otherwise obscured optic I roll the gun and get to fuckin work https://www.blitzkriegcomponents.com/Blitzkrieg-Flat-Tritium-Circle-Dot-Sight-Post--Magpul-MBUS-PRO%C2%AE-Orange-Circle_p_233.html Hi TNC, Thank you for your perspective. The idea of sticking with offset BUIS does make a lot of sense and it keeps things simple. Thanks for the link to the blitzkrieg sight. Hadn't thought about a tritium rifle sight! More thinking to do... |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 11:09:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Perception is key. A pistol red dot that is advertised @ (X)moa is when held at arms length typical for a pistol. If you move that same red dot closer to your eye it will "appear" larger, relative to the target. And, vice versa, FWIW Good point, s4s4u! Hadn't thought about that. Learning a lot on this site! Take care... |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 11:39:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Welcome to the site! Let us know what you decide, how it works out, and be sure to post pics
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Posted: 5/12/2024 12:32:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: PacNW5]
[#8]
If I did run an offset, it'd be either the Trijicon SRO 5 MOA or the Vortex Razor 6 MOA, both mini red dot sights mounted either to Warne or Arisaka offset mounts.
Since it's sitting close to your face, you'll want something with thin housing as to not obstruct your view when you're transitioning between targets. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 1:36:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jschwartz21: OdieGreen, Yes, even though I called it a backup optic and unless someone convinces me otherwise, my plan is to make my red dot my primary short-range 1X optic. I would like to keep this red dot at moderate to light weight. The original primary sight, a Holosun HS512C, is available for use as the secondary/backup sight. Alignment of the mount is an excellent point! Right now I'm considering the Strike Industries Ambush 45-Degree Optic Mount. Need to check its mounting plate alignment with the bore. Budget is perhaps $500 or less for this red dot. Take care.... I’d skip the Strike Industries. They make some appealing stuff but it’s usually not very high quality. I got my RMR for $500, so it’s kind of my default. For a primary sighting solution I’d probably look to something like an Aimpoint Duty RDS though. It’s not a crazy amount heavier but will be exceedingly durable and offer you the most traditional red dot experience. It also weighs half what the 512C does. Do you plan to leave the LPVO at 6X full time then? I struggle with this combo as that’s usually the case and higher magnification is the weak point of the LPVO. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:55:48 AM EDT
[#10]
Back up irons aren’t nearly as important with a LPVO compared to a red dot because with a red dot, if the batteries die then you have nothing to aim with. With a LPVO you have a permanent etched reticle.
As far as which optic for offset, it’s personal preference. I’m a fan of the RMR because they’ve been used and tested more than any other optic. They can be had anywhere from $300-$500. I have a few Holosun’s and except for new models, I don’t see any issues with them. They have the added benefit of battery swaps without removing the optic whet the RMR you do need to remove it. People shit on Holosun because “cHInA”, but there’s no denying they are solid performers. I haven’t mounted mine to the rear of the LPVO, I run mine up front. For me it gives me better peripheral vision overall as well as having a longer sight radius, (yes I know they’re not irons sights and it’s completely independent), but I find I get a better natural point of aim with the rifle overall before even looking at my optics. I just set this up yesterday with some spare parts I had. 12.5” SBR Vortex Razor 1-6 gen II-E Reptilla 1.54 mount Reptilla 45° offset mount for RMR Trijicon RMR HRS  Attached File Attached File |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 11:04:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Do you plan to leave the LPVO at 6X full time then? I struggle with this combo as that’s usually the case and higher magnification is the weak point of the LPVO. This is a good point. If a person expects to be on 6x a lot more than 1x, a 1-6x LPVO is no the answer, IMO |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:37:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Thanks!
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:52:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Thanks PacNW5,
The larger MOA red dot makes sense for quicker dot acquisition to place on target. Thin housing makes sense too. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:07:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: I’d skip the Strike Industries. They make some appealing stuff but it’s usually not very high quality. I got my RMR for $500, so it’s kind of my default. For a primary sighting solution I’d probably look to something like an Aimpoint Duty RDS though. It’s not a crazy amount heavier but will be exceedingly durable and offer you the most traditional red dot experience. It also weighs half what the 512C does. Do you plan to leave the LPVO at 6X full time then? I struggle with this combo as that’s usually the case and higher magnification is the weak point of the LPVO. Thanks, OdieGreen, That Aimpoint is certainly light (3.8oz)! Not sure about keeping the LPVO at 6x. When I was shooting steel from 200 to 400 yards, I did keep it at 6x. Need to work with it short-range (other than zeroing it). I imagine keeping it at 1X for expected shorter-range targets and increasing power as the target requires, but not sure yet. 1X is easier for initial target acquisition (is this the weak point you mentioned when using higher magnification?). |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:17:28 PM EDT
[#15]
Nice pics, steve8140,
So you had spare parts like a Vortex Razor just sitting around!  I also like the idea of a red dot optic as my secondary/backup. The ease of use and accuracy is the reason most of us are converting from iron sights. One question regarding your red dot set up...are you concerned at all that your backup red dot is now centered to the centerline of your scope but not centered above your bore? I guess once you zero it and assume it's the backup optic, you're not really concerned about bullet drop being aligned with the vertical axis of your red dot? For longer range shooting, that's a definite requirement, especially if wanting to use a ballistics app, but for short range shooting maybe it's not a big factor. Thanks again for the pics! Jim |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:19:56 PM EDT
[#16]
s4s4u,
How are you using your primary and secondary/backup in relation to short-range vs long-range targets? Do you always use the primary, no matter the distance or do you transition to your secondary for short-range targets? Do you start with your LPVO at 1X and use it for short-to-long range, adjusting magnification as needed? Take care, Jim |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:30:16 PM EDT
[#17]
I’ve tried a few different things and for me having the further forward made it easier to pick up. I have used ADM for an RMR, the DD 1 o’clock picatinny piece, arisaka, and a badger COMM mount. For me the ideal offset dot is a holosun 503r in a badger at 1.70
At 45 in the forward spot. The circle dot is easy to pick up and I know if I’m canted even more so. Having it in the forward spot is easier with nods. The 503 is cheap and easy to find. No problems on my issued gun using it or my personal guns. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 11:15:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jschwartz21: Nice pics, steve8140, So you had spare parts like a Vortex Razor just sitting around! One question regarding your red dot set up...are you concerned at all that your backup red dot is now centered to the centerline of your scope but not centered above your bore? I guess once you zero it and assume it's the backup optic, you're not really concerned about bullet drop being aligned with the vertical axis of your red dot? For longer range shooting, that's a definite requirement, especially if wanting to use a ballistics app, but for short range shooting maybe it's not a big factor. Thanks again for the pics! Jim Not concerned at all. They are two completely independent systems. If I’m using the red dot then the rifle is canted allowing be to get a sight picture as well as a cheekweld on the stock. Bullet drop isn’t a big consideration at the intended distances in using it for. You just need to learn your holds for different distances if you’re trying to make a more precise shot. As for the bore axis, it’s sighted in while canted so again, it’s independent from the LPVO and zeroed on the 45° axis. Dont overthink it, zero the optics and go shoot at different distances and positions. You will learn the basics real quick and make corrections. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 5/13/2024 1:07:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: s4s4u]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jschwartz21: s4s4u, How are you using your primary and secondary/backup in relation to short-range vs long-range targets? Do you always use the primary, no matter the distance or do you transition to your secondary for short-range targets? Do you start with your LPVO at 1X and use it for short-to-long range, adjusting magnification as needed? Take care, Jim I personally feel that an LPVO is a poor option for a "battle" rifle. But, I do have a 5.56 set up with an LPVO and it sits on 1x until magnification is required and when required it is directly to 6x. This is the rifle that gets "loaned" to the friend of a friend who didn't bring their own toys to the range. An offset or piggyback dot will allow the LPVO to remain on 6x, but as ODG pointed out 6x is where LPVO's are at their worst. If you are going to offset rds, an MPVO would be my suggestion and I would even consider an MPVO without illumination to save weight. My current "battle" rifles (my tip of the spear days are long over) are a 14.5 P&W with RDS and 3x magnifier, and a 10.5 suppressor ready with a 5x prism and piggyback mrds. The prism is on the lighter gun due to weight, but I am considering changing over my 14.5 as well because I think it about as close to the perfect system there is. I am not a fan of the ^ reticle, but I put up with it because it serves the purpose. The mrds is the primary, and the prism is primarily for PID and the occasional long poke. I removed the riser on the prism to get it as low as possible (1.3"ish) so I can get a solid chin weld with the mrds. It is an instant transition from 1x to 5x and back, no turning of a power ring or tilting of the rifle. I just wish it were a little lighter, and might eschew illumination in the prism to make it so if possible.  |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2024 12:50:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TBone556: I’ve tried a few different things and for me having the further forward made it easier to pick up. I have used ADM for an RMR, the DD 1 o’clock picatinny piece, arisaka, and a badger COMM mount. For me the ideal offset dot is a holosun 503r in a badger at 1.70 At 45 in the forward spot. The circle dot is easy to pick up and I know if I’m canted even more so. Having it in the forward spot is easier with nods. The 503 is cheap and easy to find. No problems on my issued gun using it or my personal guns. Thanks, TBone, I'll experiment with rear vs forward location of the red dot. So far, I like the circle with dot in the middle and, yes, it's easy to pick up. The Arisaka mount is interesting in that is allows for a 35 degree or 45 degree cant and it's aligned with the bore. I'll look into the Holosun 503r. Take care, Jim |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2024 12:54:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Makes sense, Steve. Yes, I have a tendency to overthink things and just need to get out there and practice.
Take care, Jim |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2024 8:20:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DevL]
[#22]
Red dots don't have eye relief. Certain red dots create reflections at certain distances, especially pistol red dots. You want to push forward enough those anomalies expand beyond your window.
Putting a rifle red dot (like a T1/T2) close to your eye just results in more obstruction of your view with the optic housing, with little, if any, benefit. Reconsider the rear location of your optic. Just behind the ejection port just pusts carbon venting on your optic front lens vs just in front of the ejection port. It is easier to wipe the rear lens of a T1 than the front lens, when behind the rifle. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2024 8:25:10 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Have you looked into mounts? (Some aren’t aligned with the bore so the zero is going to be off center.) This is 100% not true. A zeroed red dot is a zeroed red dot. Even if the adjustments are at 45 degree angles. Cant/rotate rifle until red dot is over bore. Zero. Done. Zero will be perfect and not off center. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2024 8:31:23 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Perception is key. A pistol red dot that is advertised @ (X)moa is when held at arms length typical for a pistol. If you move that same red dot closer to your eye it will "appear" larger, relative to the target. And, vice versa, FWIW Negative. Dot size won't change relative to target. This is not a fixed sight. You push a red dot out and reticle "grows" to make MOA the same on background. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2024 11:19:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: s4s4u]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DevL: This is 100% not true. A zeroed red dot is a zeroed red dot. Even if the adjustments are at 45 degree angles. Cant/rotate rifle until red dot is over bore. Zero. Done. Zero will be perfect and not off center. Not sure you get his drift. Offset mrds attached to a scope via a top rings are not going to be concentric to the bore, in the way offset mounts that attach to the pic rail are. Example in pic above. Then again, I may well be missing his drift...  |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2024 11:19:56 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DevL: Negative. Dot size won't change relative to target. This is not a fixed sight. You push a red dot out and reticle "grows" to make MOA the same on background. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that topic 
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IN, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2024 12:22:31 PM EDT
[#27]
   Smallest of the rifle size dots. The T2 is all the way forward on the badger 45 to keep out brass path and make room for nods. It's on a taller mount than the scope for it's 0 to 50 yard job. The NF NXS 2.5-10x42mm is generally on 5x unless we are holding for more than 200, then it goes to 10x. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:49:49 AM EDT
[#28]
Hi DevL,
All valid points! I will definitely give the forward/aft position more consideration. I should have the flexibility to move the mount aft or forward as needed. Thanks again... Jim |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:51:07 AM EDT
[#29]
Thanks, DevL!
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:55:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Thanks PistoleroJesse! Nice setup!
Jim |
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USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:08:34 AM EDT
[#31]
The smaller the better.
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LA, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:07:53 PM EDT
[#32]
If your plan is to use the canted red dot as your primary up close sight, then mount it like any red dot ... forward on the receiver. Yes, having it it closer to your eye allows you to see the dot sooner, but having it farther down the rail will put you on target faster.
On my rigs with ACOGs, I run one with a canted open emitter, one with a canted romeo4 and two with piggyback open emitters. I've found that going out humping around, the canted open emitter mounted forward on the receiver is much more prone to crap falling into it. For some reason, it hasn't been a problem with the piggyback mounted sights. Regardless, I prefer the romeo4 to the open emitter sight at the canted position. |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:22:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HawkinsID]
[#33]
The first question you need to ask is
How is it best to use an offset dot? I would suggest there are better ways than to strictly consider it as a backup sight. Here are some possible ways to look at an optic with a magnified scope and an offset dot: 1. Primary vs secondary 2. Long distance vs. close distance 3. Unsupported fire vs supported fire 4. Dynamic vs static targets I run a TA11J-G with an offset T2. If I have a good sight picture, I get the same accuracy out of both. My choice for selecting the optic I will use for the shot is Static targets = ACOG Dynamic targets = T2 A full size red dot is better in this role because both my ACOG and my red dot are "Primary" sighting systems. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:41:03 PM EDT
[#34]
 The Perfect Backup Red Dot? Holosun SCRS Review I like the SCRS a lot. 509T footprint, about half the size of a T2 style dot. Never used mine on an offset, only 12 o’clock, but it does great. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/20/2024 11:20:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Thanks, TonyAngel, avoiding the open emitter makes sense.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/20/2024 11:29:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Thank you, Hawkins. You provided important issues to think about.
Jim |
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