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Posted: 5/10/2024 10:20:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: atblis]
Snagged a $66 Ballistic Advantage 14.7" Pencil barrel from Schuyler Arms. Accuracy is ridiculously bad, like 12 MOA, maybe more. Holes appear round, don't see any signs of keyholing. Shooting off a rest on the bench with above average M193 ( 2 MOA 10 round groups from my good barrels).

1) I've switched optics.
2) I've taken it apart and put it back together. Barrel nut torque is between 30 and 80 ft-lbs.
3) I've tried with and without muzzle devices. Switched muzzle brakes. Bare muzzle shoots just as bad. Muzzle brakes put on with PA shims, minimal torque to get them timed.
3) I've switched uppers. Just put it on a third upper for laughs, but haven't shot that yet.
4) I've measured headspace. Comes in between 1.4656" and 1.4666". So towards the tight end, but in spec.
5) Bore scoped it, and it actually looks pretty good. Crown, leade, etc. etc.
6) I've cleaned it a couple times between testing sessions. Cleaned up pretty easily actually. Got almost no copper out of it.
7) Cold vs hot doesn't seem to matter.

I just can't figure out how this thing shoots this bad. It's easily the worst shooting rifle I rifle I've ever had. Maybe the bore size is way off? I'll try some of my 69/77 gr HPBT ammo for laughs, but even a bad barrel should do 6 MOA with the M193.

I am scratching my head here. It's been dead nuts reliable though.

Link Posted: 5/10/2024 10:29:26 AM EDT
[#1]
You've tried everything that would've been recommended.

I think you got a shit barrel.  Start a tomato garden, it can be your first stake.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 10:34:03 AM EDT
[#2]
Dead nuts reliable but can't hit a 10 inch target at 100 yards Thats like saying the butt-ass ugly fat girl still has a vag

Sounds like you have a bad barrel. I'd try and return it or exchange it.

You've done every single thing I could think to suggest.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 10:47:54 AM EDT
[#3]
I bought this to amuse myself. It’s certainly keeping me entertained.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 11:16:35 AM EDT
[#4]
No mention of the rail type/how you are shooting the gun.

Benchrest? Bipod? Bags?

Is it possible that the gas block is contacting the rail and pushing the flexible barrel out of alignment?

Barrel whip?

Are you resting the barrel on something when you shoot?
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 11:29:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: pestilence12] [#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mudholestomper:
No mention of the rail type/how you are shooting the gun.

Benchrest? Bipod? Bags?

Is it possible that the gas block is contacting the rail and pushing the flexible barrel out of alignment?

Barrel whip?

Are you resting the barrel on something when you shoot?
View Quote


He said he was shooting it off a bench on a rest. I assumed a sled or something. Good points though.

What kind of gas block is a good question. Also what kind of handguard/barrel nut.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 11:32:20 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mudholestomper:
No mention of the rail type/how you are shooting the gun.

Benchrest? Bipod? Bags?

Is it possible that the gas block is contacting the rail and pushing the flexible barrel out of alignment?

Barrel whip?

Are you resting the barrel on something when you shoot?
View Quote



I've seen this and I've remedied this.  It can cause consistency issues, but nowhere near a 12" dispersion at 100yds.

Link Posted: 5/10/2024 11:34:13 AM EDT
[#7]
Compare the barrel extension diameter to some others and see if there is a diferance.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 11:49:44 AM EDT
[#8]
How does a tight fitting patch feel on a one piece rod?
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 1:38:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rob78:



I've seen this and I've remedied this.  It can cause consistency issues, but nowhere near a 12" dispersion at 100yds.

View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By mudholestomper:
No mention of the rail type/how you are shooting the gun.

Benchrest? Bipod? Bags?

Is it possible that the gas block is contacting the rail and pushing the flexible barrel out of alignment?

Barrel whip?

Are you resting the barrel on something when you shoot?



I've seen this and I've remedied this.  It can cause consistency issues, but nowhere near a 12" dispersion at 100yds.



Hmm. I think this might be the problem.  I just looked at it, and the gas block does appear to be contacting the rail. I had some diagonal stringing in one of the groups that seemed odd and would matchup with the direction the gas block rail contact would push. The gas block would clear, except it's rotated slightly to side that's contacting. I used a borescope to line the gas block up with gas port on the barrel.  The port on the gas block is large enough I can rotate it to center in the rail. There's enough room if the gas block were centered. It's not a bulky gas block.

Rail is an Atlas S-One. Gas block is Wojtek. It's a floated hand guard, and I am shooting off a nice front rest with rear bag setup.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 1:40:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: atblis] [#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bpm990d:
How does a tight fitting patch feel on a one piece rod?
View Quote

Seemed perfectly normal actually. That's what's confounding me as this barrel looks better than many of my other barrels.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 4:54:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By R0N:
Compare the barrel extension diameter to some others and see if there is a diferance.
View Quote

I haven't measured, but it's comparable to other barrels and fits snug to tight in various uppers. Just put it in a BCM upper, and needed a little heat on the upper to get it to slide in.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 5:13:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By atblis:


Hmm. I think this might be the problem.  I just looked at it, and the gas block does appear to be contacting the rail. I had some diagonal stringing in one of the groups that seemed odd and would matchup with the direction the gas block rail contact would push. The gas block would clear, except it's rotated slightly to side that's contacting. I used a borescope to line the gas block up with gas port on the barrel.  The port on the gas block is large enough I can rotate it to center in the rail. There's enough room if the gas block were centered. It's not a bulky gas block.

Rail is an Atlas S-One. Gas block is Wojtek. It's a floated hand guard, and I am shooting off a nice front rest with rear bag setup.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By atblis:
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By mudholestomper:
No mention of the rail type/how you are shooting the gun.

Benchrest? Bipod? Bags?

Is it possible that the gas block is contacting the rail and pushing the flexible barrel out of alignment?

Barrel whip?

Are you resting the barrel on something when you shoot?



I've seen this and I've remedied this.  It can cause consistency issues, but nowhere near a 12" dispersion at 100yds.



Hmm. I think this might be the problem.  I just looked at it, and the gas block does appear to be contacting the rail. I had some diagonal stringing in one of the groups that seemed odd and would matchup with the direction the gas block rail contact would push. The gas block would clear, except it's rotated slightly to side that's contacting. I used a borescope to line the gas block up with gas port on the barrel.  The port on the gas block is large enough I can rotate it to center in the rail. There's enough room if the gas block were centered. It's not a bulky gas block.

Rail is an Atlas S-One. Gas block is Wojtek. It's a floated hand guard, and I am shooting off a nice front rest with rear bag setup.
I wouldn't do anything else until I fixed that issue. I've seen guys resting their suppressor on a barricade and sling rounds all over the place at 100 yards. If you're leaning in and flexing that rail against the gas block I could envision big shifts occurring from shot to shot.
Link Posted: 5/10/2024 11:57:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 5/12/2024 7:26:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dano523] [#14]
Link Posted: 5/12/2024 7:51:45 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dano523:


Barrel harmonic, and with float tube system, barrel has to free float, and to the level that barrel movement during the shot, will not have th barrel or gas block touching anything during flex in the barrel.

From here, double check to make sure that barrel nut has be mated to receiver socket treads, and barrel nut is tighened to plus 35ftlbs, but do not exceed 80ftlbs to index barrel nut channel to upper receiver gas tube channel, center line of barrel extension center of lugs are indexed on center line of gas tube channel/center line of lower take down lug,  and when gas tube is installed, remove bolt from carrier, use just carrier in upper to check gas tube to carrier key alignment, and gas tube gets tweaked over center of barrel to align it to the key.

Last one, brand new barrel, use CLP with chamber and bore brushes to remove protective grease in bore, then run dry patched to remove that mess in the end.  Also as pointed out, use jig with dry brush in the end, to double check the barrel bore rifling for uniformity in rifling it self.  As for installing FS or muzzle brake in the end, do not over torque the device, since if over torqued, will cause distorting on the last inch of bore.

Simply, barrel that is spraying, either has rifling that is over sized and not spinning the bullet enough to stabilize it (sideways strikes on the bullet on target), or barrel contact in float tube, or bent barrel in some form such as last inch or bore, that will cause the POI to shift as the barrel changes temps.  
If you have a lathe, then easy to chuck barrel extension in chuck, use steady rest at gas block, and break out dial indicator to see if barrel is straight, or bent at any point.  Also give you a chance to check FS threads against bore itself, since could be bore is not tram to Treads, and any device added to to barrel, maybe be enough to allow bullets to scrap inside of Device on way through.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dano523:


Barrel harmonic, and with float tube system, barrel has to free float, and to the level that barrel movement during the shot, will not have th barrel or gas block touching anything during flex in the barrel.

From here, double check to make sure that barrel nut has be mated to receiver socket treads, and barrel nut is tighened to plus 35ftlbs, but do not exceed 80ftlbs to index barrel nut channel to upper receiver gas tube channel, center line of barrel extension center of lugs are indexed on center line of gas tube channel/center line of lower take down lug,  and when gas tube is installed, remove bolt from carrier, use just carrier in upper to check gas tube to carrier key alignment, and gas tube gets tweaked over center of barrel to align it to the key.

Last one, brand new barrel, use CLP with chamber and bore brushes to remove protective grease in bore, then run dry patched to remove that mess in the end.  Also as pointed out, use jig with dry brush in the end, to double check the barrel bore rifling for uniformity in rifling it self.  As for installing FS or muzzle brake in the end, do not over torque the device, since if over torqued, will cause distorting on the last inch of bore.

Simply, barrel that is spraying, either has rifling that is over sized and not spinning the bullet enough to stabilize it (sideways strikes on the bullet on target), or barrel contact in float tube, or bent barrel in some form such as last inch or bore, that will cause the POI to shift as the barrel changes temps.  
If you have a lathe, then easy to chuck barrel extension in chuck, use steady rest at gas block, and break out dial indicator to see if barrel is straight, or bent at any point.  Also give you a chance to check FS threads against bore itself, since could be bore is not tram to Treads, and any device added to to barrel, maybe be enough to allow bullets to scrap inside of Device on way through.


Originally Posted By atblis:
Snagged a $66 Ballistic Advantage 14.7" Pencil barrel from Schuyler Arms. Accuracy is ridiculously bad, like 12 MOA, maybe more. Holes appear round, don't see any signs of keyholing. Shooting off a rest on the bench with above average M193 ( 2 MOA 10 round groups from my good barrels).

1) I've switched optics.
2) I've taken it apart and put it back together. Barrel nut torque is between 30 and 80 ft-lbs.
3) I've tried with and without muzzle devices. Switched muzzle brakes. Bare muzzle shoots just as bad. Muzzle brakes put on with PA shims, minimal torque to get them timed.
3) I've switched uppers. Just put it on a third upper for laughs, but haven't shot that yet.
4) I've measured headspace. Comes in between 1.4656" and 1.4666". So towards the tight end, but in spec.
5) Bore scoped it, and it actually looks pretty good. Crown, leade, etc. etc.
6) I've cleaned it a couple times between testing sessions. Cleaned up pretty easily actually. Got almost no copper out of it.
7) Cold vs hot doesn't seem to matter.

I just can't figure out how this thing shoots this bad. It's easily the worst shooting rifle I rifle I've ever had. Maybe the bore size is way off? I'll try some of my 69/77 gr HPBT ammo for laughs, but even a bad barrel should do 6 MOA with the M193.

I am scratching my head here. It's been dead nuts reliable though.

Link Posted: 5/12/2024 11:18:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Is the gas block pinned? I have seen this very issue because of a over inserted pin creating a bulge in the barrel from the pin being beat in too far. Thats why you NEVER pin a gas block if you want ultimate accuracy
Link Posted: 5/13/2024 5:34:54 PM EDT
[#17]
What is the twist rate?

M193 is not the best ammo to use for checking accuracy although some barrels perform fairly well with it.
Link Posted: 5/16/2024 3:09:26 PM EDT
[#18]
It’s not actually M193 but my handload M193ish ammo. Has always been better than any factory M193 I’ve ever seen. 12 rounds 2 moa is typical for it. Hornady bullets going about 3100 out of a 20” barrel. I’ve been shooting it for about 15 years, probably 12k+ rounds of it (working on my 3rd 6k bulk pack).

1 in 7 twist. Gas block is a clamp on style. I tend to avoid the set screw type. I’ll taper pin on occasion but rarely.

Gas block is clear of rail. Will test this weekend.
Link Posted: 5/17/2024 9:56:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
Is the gas block pinned? I have seen this very issue because of a over inserted pin creating a bulge in the barrel from the pin being beat in too far. Thats why you NEVER pin a gas block if you want ultimate accuracy
View Quote


This can indeed happen.  But a coil pin solves the problem.  I used to beat solid pins with a hammer into proof carbon barrels.  I have done a lot of foolish things.  That's only one.
Link Posted: 5/18/2024 2:38:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Okay, we’re down to about 4 MOA with the gas block centered in the rail. Could be better , but looking more reasonable. For reference the control shot 10 rounds into 1 moa with the same ammo.
Link Posted: 5/19/2024 2:09:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By atblis:
Okay, we’re down to about 4 MOA with the gas block centered in the rail. Could be better , but looking more reasonable. For reference the control shot 10 rounds into 1 moa with the same ammo.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By atblis:
Okay, we’re down to about 4 MOA with the gas block centered in the rail. Could be better , but looking more reasonable. For reference the control shot 10 rounds into 1 moa with the same ammo.



What you said earlier about the same ammo -

Originally Posted By atblis:
It’s not actually M193 but my handload M193ish ammo. Has always been better than any factory M193 I’ve ever seen. 12 rounds 2 moa is typical for it. Hornady bullets going about 3100 out of a 20” barrel. I’ve been shooting it for about 15 years, probably 12k+ rounds of it (working on my 3rd 6k bulk pack).


Those 'typical' numbers do not seem to match.



It is not at all uncommon for different barrels to shoot the same exact loadings differently. Some barrels being more or less accurate with a particular load...


Test it with some good match grade quality factory ammo against your 'control' rifle / barrel and report back.






Link Posted: 5/19/2024 7:05:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: atblis] [#22]
Different ammo. Switched to a 69 gr HPBT. By control, I simply mean I brought along a known good shooting gun to also test the ammo.

I see no reason to shoot factory ammo when I’ve been cranking out hand loads that shoot better than factory for going on two decades now.
Link Posted: 5/22/2024 3:12:03 PM EDT
[#23]
$66 and worth every cent.
Link Posted: 5/22/2024 3:20:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sgtlmj] [#24]
Does it have rifling?

Ballistics Advantage - Barrel Autopsy
Link Posted: 5/27/2024 12:31:46 PM EDT
[#25]
I have a BA 5.56 16" barrel, haven't shot it with high quality ammo yet.  seems to do 2-4 moa off a rest iirc.  you might have found your "12 moa" issue and fixed it and now you're chasing the limits of the barrel.
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