I have been a member here for a long time, been sick for several years so I just don’t even log in and just read. But, all of you are a wealth of information, and I would like to ask some questions. Some maybe dumb, some maybe not. You decide, and only answer what you wish.

Why does it seem to me that a lot of people are abandoning most of their optics to go for a lpvo, are they really that good and we just now noticed it?

Why does the search for the ideal optic for me seem never ending? As soon as I think I am happy with what I have someone shows me a flaw in my thinking and it starts all over.

I love a lot of optics, red dots, prisms, scopes, but dang can’t afford hardly much anymore.

Why are common little mounts as much as some optics?

As soon as I find an optic I love it is nt long my eyes keep getting worse and worse causing me to not stay happy with chosen optic very long.lol

How in the world do you make sense of it all, I would love to have a nice red dot for the house, astigmatism or not. But, that doesn’t work very well when I want to shoot out to 300yds, and do I dial an lpvo or just look through the acog.

Really, the truth of it all is , I love them all, but to truly find what is perfect for my uses is impossible and constantly changing.I always find another reason to want something else. And depending on where it is made changes the prices so dramatically I am lucky to have a a toothpick stuck to the end of my barrel with bubblegum.I sure wish it was easier to find that ideal optic, but I am lost and can’t afford to play anymore. My eyesight gets worse by the day, scopes are constantly changing. What happened to the scopes for a few years ago that you didn’t need a forklift to pick up and look through and you could afford to take home and put on your rifle and just have a blast of a day plinking because it didn’t lose zero everytime you sat it down.  Not complaining,,, just can never find something I truly believe in to work when you need it, and  I can afford without selling my truck to buy.

Honestly?  I’ve found you see this a lot more with people who spend more time playing around with their guns at home than actually shooting them out on the range.  

Not meant as a dig, but when you spend a lot of time shooting, you know what your needs are, have identified any potential weaknesses preventing you from meeting those needs, and probably have a good idea what you need to change to get there.

When you’re just fiddling around at home or on forums, you get lost in the theoretical, second guessing what you thought you knew.  

Just my $0.02.

Thanks a lot, it is true I rarely can ever feel good enough or get a chance to get to a range, so I spend a lot of time just looking at what is in front, makes good sense. Thanks.

As of now, I have five 5.56 guns ranging from 10.5" to 20" in barrel length.  One 20" is an M-16 clone with carry handle/fsb, the other 20" has a 2.5-15, the 16" has an LPVO 1-6x, the 14.5 P/W has a red dot with a 3x magnifier, and the 10.5 sports a prism with a piggyback mrds.

And that is just the 5.56 guns.

WTF does "making sense" have to do with anything

But, seriously, define the mission and the rest will fall into place.

Find what works for your eyes. I have astigmatism so I don’t like single red dots, Eotech works for my eyes but I like LPVO’s that use an Eotech style reticle like the credo and VCOG from Trijicon. Getting behind a gun and finding out are you someone who wants a simple clean crosshair or dot or do you need all the extra things? Like the previous posts you’ll learn more by actually getting behind the gun. I hope your illness gets better.

Cause we’re all old boomers now and our eyes suck.

Kinda like the PA 1x micro prism, but just can’t quite get that red dot clears, but I gotta a friend that says his is. , and my next endeavor with a Burris rt6 just can’t get that thing clear on 1x, it’s kickin my reared.I am convinced I am somewhere between cross eyed and blind.I don’t think they make a focus ring for my eyes. When they come out with glasses for bats I think I will get in line.Lol

I'm going to go with this.  I've had the same Eotech's for years & years, & have the same AP's & a few Sig redots.  I'm happy with all of them & until they don't work, I'll continue to use them. Maybe something new & improved will benefit me, but optics are $$, rather buy ammo.

What do I like/want in an optic?

1. Hold zero.
2. Be reliable.
3. Crisp daylight bright dot in reticle, with or without ranging/drop features as appropriate for the type of optic.
4. Auto on/off or battery life over a year with easy adjustment of illumination and easy battery swaps.
5. Allows me the shoot to the precision limits of the platform.
6. Lightweight for what it is.
7. Allows me to shoot in any reasonable lighting condition or position.
8. Has crisp and predictable elevation/windage adjustments with appropriate features.
9. Has great optics that have as little tint or distortion as possible.
10. Reasonable price.

That's it.

For a handgun, shotgun, or subgun that is a red dot.
For a rifle, that is a low power scope, usually second focal plane.
For a precision rifle, that is a high power precision scope. Usually front focal plane.

Easy.

If you want a sub 4 MOA capable weapon out to 200 you want a red dot.

If you want sub 2 MOA accuracy to 300, you just want an LPVO.

If you want sub MOA accuracy at 300+ you want a precision scope.

As far as ACOGs... the TA31 has too short of eye relief. If you can live with that short eye relief it is otherwise great. The TA11 has great eye relief, it just has too little magnification and weighs as much as a lightweight LPVO. If you can live with 3.5x it is great. Compact ACOGs have too little magnification and/or field of view. The 6x48 ACOG is too heavy, expensive, or low powered for anything but a belt fed.

No optic is perfect... yet. I have several optics that I am happy with.

Leupold Delta Point Pro on a braced CP33. I get a bigger window than a T2, almost no tint, zero optical distortion, low weight, and a crisp dot. It let's me shoot to the limit of what an offhand semi auto .22 rimfire pistol can. I can shoot 2" groups at 50 yards from a rest. The illumination control being one button sucks and it is fragile... but this is a plastic .22 lr handgun for fun and rodent shooting, not a duty pistol.

For something more reliable, I have a Trijicon SRO on a Glock 17. Little more tint and glass distortion that the Deltapoint Pro but it is more durable, sits lower, and has better illumination controls with 2 buttons. Makes head shots at 25y easy. Makes torso shots at 50y easy.

Have a Leupold VX5HD 1-5x Firedot on a 300 BLK SBR duty rifle. Just over 14oz is light! No reticle stadia marks, but has locking BDC elevation turret for holds out to 300y. Leupold one button illumination control sucks again is the only real negative outside of no reticle hashes.

Leupold Mark5HD 3.6-18×44 with Tremor 3 on a precision AR. Only negative is the illumination sucks and the reticle needs to be at 7x to use the ranging features easily.

For a small red dot, the Aimpoint T2 is just about perfect. It is just too expensive, so the majority of my red dots are still T1s due to the price to upgrade more than one. Still, the T2 is essentially perfect for what it is, if you discount price. No current scope is "perfect" outside of price. They all have at least one drawback and often 2 or 3.

Why are optic mounts so expensive? Up to about $200 for scope mounts and $125 for red dot mounts, they are worth it due to engineering and machining costs (for minimizing weight while maintaining perfect precision) reliable QD systems, accessory mounting features, or actual material choice (titanium or 7075/2000 series aluminum vs steel or 6061 aluminum). Past about $200, low production volume or marketing is why some optics mounts are so expensive. Cheap mounts are cheap for a reason, but if you don't need light weight or extra features a cheap and heavy 6061 mount with steel bolts can serve you just fine for under $100.

As for your eyes with astigmatism.  I got laser vision correction. LASEK. It is a PRK variant vs. a LASIK variant. Best money I ever spent on optics. Paid $4000. Totally worth it. Modeen LASIK is much cheaper and faster recovery if you are the right candidate.

Another old retired guy who’s hobby for decades has been firearms, shooting and reloading.   As I get older I do less shooting with centerfire but still shoot a lot of rimfire at my house.   My firearms are tools and are set up for specific task.   I have AR-15’s with RDS, LPVO, and magnified optics.   I also have defensive orientated shotguns and hunting shotguns.   I have defensive and recreational handguns.   Many firearms I’ve owned a long time but I’m still interested in the hobby.   I have a couple grandsons who are interested in shooting and I enjoy shooting with them.   I don’t have any real expensive optics but what I have work for their intended use.

I’ve never owned an LPVO, so I thought I’d pick one up to see what all the fuss was about.

That was like 8 months ago and I still haven’t used it. I like my ACOG/RMR combo too much.

There is no perfect optic accept that first and then move on.  Every optic out there is going to have strengths and weaknesses also some are compromises.  LPVO's are a lot of compromises to gain advantages elsewhere it is just how it goes.  LPVO's traditionally do not have parallax adjustment and it is fixed at a specific range.  They offer variable magnification from 1-4x up to 1-10x and the higher you go in the magnification the tighter the eye box gets and less forgiving.  Over prisms they usually offer more magnification and the ability to use 1x.  Even in LPVO's they are not all created equally and to be honest some up straight up crap, some a really good, some are a waste of money, and so on.  What usually drives people to LPVO's over prism or traditional scopes is that 1x with the ability to go to higher magnification.  My opinion is if you are getting a LPVO 1-6x is kind of the sweet spot, 1-8x is pushing it because you are getting a tighter eye box/darker image, and 1-10x is nice to have that 10x but it is very unforgiving if you are off just a bit getting behind it.  If I were doing a 1-8/10x it would be FFP and I would use the 8-10x for observation\"precision" shots and when I need to be faster at distance use the 6x just so I am not fighting with the ocular end to get the just right eye relief and squared up behind the optic.  
If I had to choose an optic or optic setup as my all around this is what I am stuck with no other choice to do all I would get something around the 2-10x with a red dot for close shooting.  2x is totally doable for up close shooting, 10x can get you out really far especially if you are 5.56, and over all they are far less compromises than LPVO's.  Do not get me wrong LPVO's have a place but most people get into one without knowing their limitations and compromises then bitch when it does not do X as good as another optic or Y as good as this red dot.  LPVO's are not great at anything but they are good or useable at multiple things which is why they exist.

I pretty well agree with this, and I've sure been guilty of falling for what's hot right now.

For my practical purposes, I find LPVO better suits my actual uses better than a Dot or Prism. I've never needed a rifle for an inside the home defense scenario, but I have needed a rifle quickly for dispatching varmints and variable magnification is ideal for that because sometimes that's a 25 yard shot and sometimes it's 150. Less practically speaking, before the boating accident, I had rifles/optics for quite the variety of possible situations.

I feel part of the LPVO craze is that technology/manufacturing techniques have improved to the point that a few hundred dollar China scope is clear, reliable, and there's a TON more reticle options than what's available in a dot. Most recently I purchased a Primary Arms 1-6x and I really like the ACSS Aurora Reticle.

I like my red dot and 3x magnifier, but not in love with it.  If I had to carry it all day, I would look for a simpler/lighter solution.  For a HD rifle it works.  God bless you who have to carry an AR all day.

I’d like to see some drop tests done on those China scopes to see just how reliable they are.


I like the PA prisms but not sure how reliable they are outside of range use.

Plenty of people have done some absurd abuse tests on variations of different scopes Chicom, Pilipino, Japanese, American, and German.  Few videos I have watched guys have thrown their scopes up into the air as high as they can throw them and let them hit the ground.  Modern scopes are fairly durable my Vortex Viper PA I had it fall off my friends lifted truck on a dirt/rock road and hit objective/turret first.  Never lost zero and barely left a few scratches on the finish that are hardly noticeable.  I have also while running tripped and landed on my rifle skidding across the ground of spend shells, rocks, grass, and dirt and Viper PST2 1-6x.  It fucked the throw lever and scratched the scope turret cap but never lost zero or damaged the optic I think I was more busted us than any of the equipment.

There’s some out there. Some break but not many. Really depends on the testing. There’s that one creepy guy that drops everything on AR500 steel but he’s a total shill for Vector Arms.

The common theme is zero loss though. Usually not mechanical in the optic but from the optic moving in the mount. Supposedly this is why the Geissele mounts have become so highly regarded in the SOF communities.

My favorite set up for a general purpose 5.56 is a prism with a MRDS. I tend to like shooting off hand at various distances though which heavily influences my preferences. It took me many years to find a combo I liked so much but I’m never going to close the book on trying new configurations.

@JustaFigment

Check out this video from deltathirtyfour. I'd advise watching it more than once, as it's very densely full of information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL3MJvmDmvE&t=1s&ab_channel=deltathirtyfour

I started with a Burris xtr14 about 15 years ago since the lpvo was getting so popular and I had to try it out.

Skip forward to now, I've got 6 and they are my favorite to shoot with.  My shooting now is exclusively on the ranch as I no longer even bother with a range membership.  My eyesight isn't as good at almost 50 so the aimpoints I used to love aren't as useful.  I still like to shoot at 1x though at sub 100m steel so no mag glass is perfect. I rarely shoot at over 400m and I'm pretty good with a 6x out to that distance (although 10x + is definitely better).

I have 4 hpvo and 5 mpvo but I use the low mag when hunting with any of those since distance is short and light may be low.  The hpvo are on 308 bolt guns, 20" AR-15, and 18" 6.5G AR.  Every once in a great while I'll shoot at 700m or use them at my 400m steel.

Point being as much as I hate jumping on the bandwagon, the lpvo fits my preferred shooting and I don't ever do competitions..... it's just useful for ranch duty.  Also, not that it weighs heavily on my decision to buy them, but after finding them so useful I have to admit I'd probably go for it in shtf. Target ID at moderate distance would be the primary reason.

This is where I'm at. I've been trying the 3x micro and really like it. So far it's been good in an adm mount. I still question long term ruggedness of it. I've got a similar rifle with an aimpoint pro that was my go to rifle before the one with the 3x micro

I think the 2-10 with a mrds is pretty solid. I like it but have to spend time with it consistently to switch to the rds efficiently.

It's also a lot heavier.

If I lived somewhere more open then the extra power might be more beneficial.

Shooting up close the aimpoint and prism are just about the same speed per a timer. The 3x is much better at picking out obscured targets past 50 yards and way lighter than the 2-10. The 2-10 is much better at picking out obscured targets at farther distances.
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Lower end nikons ,prostaff and buckmasters are all iv ever used. Simple duplex reticles, clear glass, tracks well. Im a simple man, simple needs.

Very happy with my ACOGs, I like that they are small enough, simple and very durable.

I have a hard time being happy with red dot sights. I've not found one to my liking and I prefer holographic sights. I have a Vortex UH-1 Gen 2 that I like enough that I'd consider buying a second one.

I usually like shooting irons more than optics though (I'm weird in other ways too ).

I think most all optics have a time and place.     And alot depends on your shooting style, what you're planning for and your other gear setup.

   I don't have ANY red dots because my eyes don't allow it.   For me that eliminates it off the bat.

  My main SHTF AR is 11.5" and it has a Primary Arms 2X on it.   It's compact and light, and don't see shooting past 200 yards much/if ever so no need for a LPVO.

  My "All around" AR is a lightweight 16".  I have a 1-6X LPVO on it as I want to reach out a bit more.  It's super accurate so it can exploit it, however groups open up if you are running a long string.  Thus don't need higher magnification.  

 My "toy/DMR" as I really don't see myself ever USING it.  18" MK 12 Mod1 Ish clone.  has a 3-18 FFP on it.  Holds groups well up to getting the barrel toasty.  Since it can hit well at 600, why not put a scope capable of matching it on it?

 
  I have and still play with combinations, but for how I practice and what I envision I don't see myself changing regardless of what the new hotness is.  I've had this setup for a LONG time, only updating the 1-6X to a nicer one and the 2X PA prism is updated from the old 2.5X prism.    

 Honestly 90% of the optics choices would work 90% of the time for 90% of the people.   MOST instances won't be won or lost in those minor differences and/or people won't be good enough to utilize that difference.    The few who notice that 10% difference can probably adapt whatever they have as needed anyway.  

An example: A Navy seal with a 20" AR with a 4-24X scope would probably still be 5X as effective in a CQB test as I would be with whatever I choose.

There is no master of all.

The lpvo gives you a useable 1x and a useable 10x.

But a red dot is still better than the lpvo's 1x, and a dedicated scope will generally have a better fov than the 10x too.

Everything is a trade off. Your use case will decide what will work well for you. As well as your own personal preferences.

Do a little research, don't obsess on it, and buy something in your budget.

I also like the mvpo 2-10 realm like the poster above. They started drying up but leupold brought back the mark 4. My credo 2-10 is awesome.

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I liked iron sights for years, but red dots really won me over as they progressed, though I still shot irons a lot.  A red dot can easily get you out to 300, and with a good buis, you can reach out to 600 just by popping up the buis.  Now older, and with astigmatism getting worse, I have put an older 2.5-10x40 on my favorite 20 inch.  It works great, but requires more manipulation to reach out to 600 than just popping up a buis.  I still like aimpoints with buis on carbines, but have really considered switching over to variable scope, maybe an lpvo.  As others have mentioned 2-2.5 works fairly well up close, and if you get an illuminated reticle/dot, it can be quite quick to use - though a rds is technically easier/faster for most.  As I have aged, especially in the last couple years, I admit I am not able to use irons as well as before.  For simplicity of operation and weight savings, I am slowly moving more towards a variable optic, not illuminated.

Really depends on what you want to do most of the time, as others have mentioned.

minimalism or maximalism. either just enough to get the job done, or something that is without a doubt the best. i've come to the conclusion that your best options are either microprisms for lightweight builds, or high power thermal scopes.
they're at yhe point where they weigh the same as an LPVO in a mount so really it's a no-brainer. way better than clip on thermals and you'll never wish you didn't have the capability.

these sort of in-between GPR SBR RECCE DMR bla bla acronym soup instagram builds that everyone goes for are just not efficient. a thermal scope with a red dot smokes an LPVO and IR laser every time.

All I can say is wow! These are all floating around in my head,  and now I am glad, no I’m not, well maybe..I love seeing all the perspectives, wish I was smart enough to figure out an ideal solution but ultimately not, and that video was excellent, and downright scary.In a world where my old body is looking for lighter weight, I think I am going to have to figure out how to quiet down that forklift to hold this so I can see, but then I have to make it possible to see and go everywhere, and Ihavent even got to camp or heat signature yet… lol

Thank you all, this is impressive, and interesting, and btw, Shackleford, do you adopt? I can’t afford thermal.lol.Thank you all, you are great! I am glad to have logged back in.

My problem has always been that I suffere from 2x-itis.  Its a similar affliction to Boaters and RV'ers that always want 2 more feet...well I always want mor magnification it seems.  I started with dots on my 3 gun rigs, then an eotech, then the eotech with the multiple dots, then a 1-4, followed bt a 1.5-5, a 1.5-6, and few true-ish 1-6, then a couple 1-8's, and now 1-10's all around.  Some of it was being able to afford better glass, some of it was psychological.

For the higher range scopes, I started with 1" fixed 10x, then a fixed 20x, then variables 4-16, 2.5-10, a 3-15, a 3.3-18, a 4.5-22, a bunch of 6-24's, a 4-27, a 5.5 to 30, an 8-40 and I also own a golden eagle 15-60X!!!  My current quest is to swap everything out to FFP with some type of Christmas tree reticle.  

I almost need a new safe for all of the take-offs...

Throughout this journey, I have been "upgrading" whenever I can, and have been buying better and better glass, and it helps.  I have an astigmatisim too, but the difference between a swampfox 6-24 and a Vortex viper PST 6-24 is simply astounding.  Then moving up to a Vortex Razor 4-27 or Burris XTR3 5-30 and its orders of magnitude better yet.  I spent too many years in the "good enough" cheap glass zone, and I never believed what everyone said about buying the best glass you can possibly afford.  Believe it.  I have several sub $500 rifles with $2k+ glass on them, and suddenly I can hit what I am aiming at soooo much easier.

@Barry, that is a lot of scopes, can’t imagine what some of the weights are on some of them, but true that s our final objective is to hit our target. So you are making better progress than I, I can’t even see my targets half the time. @gasman, that video is truly excellent, and I still can’t get over the treat to the left not seen at 80 yards. That is a huge eye opener, shows we definitely need definition and to be able to actually see our target and everywhere around us to determine what is actually there.  Iam starting to think a 2-10, with a red dot canted maybe is a great idea?

On my 3gun uppers, I can relate to all of this.  
I've stopped at 1-8 at the top though, even though I still have multiple 1-6s as backups.

It's not a bad idea, but it'll be heavy and bulky. For a general purpose rifle, especially if you only plan on shooting out to 300 yards, a quality LPVO (example: PLxC) with or without an offset RDS might work better for you than an MPVO.

I really got into the AR game once I saw the SpecterDR. I don't know what it is about it but I really like the look and been using it for the past 15 years myself. The original one I traded in for the 2032 battery model and been using it for the past few years.

I don't think anything is really better or worse. I guess if you don't have enough money to try them, then it is probably a good idea to stick with what you know and trust. I am a early 2000s person and trained on the iron sights. I wouldn't mind using iron sights at all. A lot of people say they can't see the target with the iron sights... but you don't need to see the target per se. I was trained to concentrate on the front sight post and keep the target on a lollipop. You don't need good sights really other than just concentrating on the front sight post.

a lot of people will end up spending like $6k on their optic + laser, that's not unreasonable. $2000 scope in a $400 mount with a $600 red dot and a $2000 laser. or you could buy an old armasight for like $3500 and a red dot. otherwise, get a microprism for like $500 and just save until you can get a thermal or finance it.