Well, I tried to make the Speci Ops Recon Ruck Ultra into a viable MOLLE version of the Medium ALICE pack, but given my limited pool of seamstresses in Michigan to whom MOLLE may as well be alien technology I was just not able to pull it off.

What I wouldn't give for a Medium MALICE pack from Tactical Tailor.    They'll never make one though, because they can barely keep up with the orders for their Large MALICE packs.

Why is it that the nobody makes an OCP or Multicam version of the Medium ALICE pack when it was one of the most popular packs in the last half century?  I would call the Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra  more"ALICE inspired," but it is most definitely not a worthy successor of the Medium ALICE.  

What, did they not do it right?  Or didn't want to try?  

What all do you want done?  I might be able to do it.  

If someone really bugged me enough, I might be inclined to fast track my plan to take apart this ALICE pack I have here and reverse engineer it.  Put it on a crossfire frameset for myself.  And make one for someone else at the same time.  

LBT  has an 8-pocket pack that's ALICE-ish.  Have you seen that?

So what exactly are you looking to change on the SpecOos recon ruck? It has MOLLE on the sides- or did you want the whole thing covered in PALS webbing?

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Does the Mystery Ranch BlackJack 50 fill your niche?

Nice Sinister.  

And yea, if @KaerMorhenResident wants something like that, I can probably do that for ya.  Remove the old external pouches and add MOLLE to the outside of the pack and the lid (or make you a new lid might be easier)

I'm serious about doing a run of modernized medium ALICE packs if I get a couple people interested.  Especially if you just want one covered in MOLLE.

Geeeeez that's expensive.

I might be interested depending on prices. I used my dads OLD medium hiking the AT with Boy Scouts.  Thing was awesome.

Just letting you know what you can charge for something comparable

It seems there is a market for modern medium alice packs.  What all would you guys WANT on the modernized medium alice?  I'm assuming MOLLE on parts of it at least, but would yall want sewn on pouches?  If so, what kind?  Stuff like that.

Also, would you want it complete with frame, straps, and belt?  Or just the pack bag and let you guys complete the frame, straps, and belt yourself to your choosing?  (probably the easiest and cheapest thing to do)

I'm actually interested in this project, I've been throwing around the idea of making a couple packs for myself for awhile now.  

Also, if I do do this, and someone has a blown-out alice pack they want to donate to the cause, something that's all beat up and that they don't mind me taking apart, that'd be cool ya know?

EDIT:  Ok, so looking at tactical tailor's site, a base-line multicam MALICE pack is over $400, without frame, straps, and belt.  So I'm thinking if I can get 2 or more people who are interested, I'll do a few of them for something around the $200-250ish range, depending on what mods they want?  Basically you are paying for my materials and a little time to make the pattern and I'll make money on later sales.  Let me do some computing on materials cost to make sure I'm stomping all over my own dick with that price range.  But that's what I'm looking at.

Well, I probably asked the lady to do too much at once.  She did every modification that I wanted pretty well other than the three rows of PALS webbing that I wanted added below the main compartment flap at the top of the Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra pack.  I'm in a quest now to see if I can have someone take a seam ripper and remove the webbing and redo it correctly (correct spacing and placement).  

The original ALICE pack has attachment points above the three main pockets and higher up on it's right and left side.  What I was going for was an OCP MOLLE version of what this Marine did with his legacy ALICE pack.



If I could have my dream set-up it would essentially be a Medium MALICE pack in OCP in 500D instead of 1000D.  

Here are some of the problems with the Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra:

1.   1000 Denier, why?  I mean 500D will get the job done and cuts weight off what is already a pretty heavy pack compared to civilian packs.

2.   For some reason Spec Ops did not sew in any attachment points at the bottom of the pack.  The result is that you can secure the Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra to the top of ALICE frame, but not to the bottom of the frame, which is just baffling and makes you wonder WTF they were thinking. The lady who did my work was able to add those attachment points for me.

3.  Spec Ops did not put any PALs webbing on the bottom of the pack.  The original ALICE has webbing on the bottom of the pack so that you can latch things to the bottom of the pack.  I had the lady add some PALs webbing to the bottom of the pack and she did a decent job at that part.

4.  The Original ALICE has webbing at the top of the pack above the three outer pockets, but the Spec Ops Recon Ruck has no webbing at all above the three main pockets.

5.  The Top Flap cover does not have that Water Proof rubbering lining that the original ALICE pack has and the three outer pockets are not lined with that material either.  I had the lady add the rubber lining to the inside of the top flap for me  and it looks like she did a decent job doing that part.

6.  It comes with a waist belt hard sewn into the pack.  I can't imagine why someone would get a  Medium or Large ALICE pack and not use it in conjunction with a frame.  I think trying to be both a stand alone and a pack that can work in conjunction with an ALICE frame just made it suck for both purposes.

In terms of my disasterous customization attempt, I just asked way too much from this lady.  I don't think that woman had ever really examined a military pack in her enitre life prior to me walking through the shop's door and I am thankful she at least put some effort into it.  The folks that do any seamstress type work around here are exclusively Baby Boomer generation women in their 60s and up who mostly work on dresses or maybe work boots.

I have seen it and it appears to be the size of a Large ALICE and I'm looking for a Medium ALICE size.

I just want a pack that will get me through a two day weekend ruck where i have just one overnight during the warmer late Spring, Summer, and early Fall timeline. So, I don't need a massive pack for days of sustainment. Just a nice weekend warrior pack.

That's a bit too big for what i'm looking for. I'd looking to stay around 40 liters and I would actually prefer to be able to use my Tactical Tailor MALICE frame with pack.  My thinking is that I could use a Medium sized ALICE/MALICE style pack for short trips and then use the same Tactical Tailor MALICE frame for a Large ALICE/MALICE pack for winter or longer trips/sustainment.  

I might end up going with the Crossfire CF2, which is a 37 Liter external frame pack, but I'm still hoping to get this Medium ALICE pack thing going.

I'd be very interested in doing that if you decide to go through with it.  That's a good guestimate price range.

No built in straps or waist belt would be ideal, just the attachment points for the top and bottom of the pack like the original ALICE just updated with the ITW hardware on the bottom lash points like the TT MALICE has done.

For material, 500D would be awesome for a medium pack.  I get why TT went with 1000D for their large MALICE, but in my amateur opinion a 500D would get the job done on a medium. I'd leave that decision though to the experts and defer to you if you thought 1000D was a better choice.

Essentially, just taking a Medium ALICE and updating the hardware and replacing the ALICE webbing points with PALs would be pretty popular.

Post some pics of the “disaster.”  Might be easy to redo the Molle that didn’t turn out right. I always felt a Medium Alice never warranted an external frame. It begs to be redone with a simple frame sheet and stays.  I have no need for another pack, but I really like Marnsdorff’s ideas. And I’m sure he can pull it off.

Here is my not so humble pics of the pack that I just recently made.  Kind of a hybrid NI Patrol pack/Alice/Molle.
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https://postimg.cc/bSJMm4B8,https://i.postimg.cc/VvB8k89S/IMG_0344.jpg

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Yea, post some pics of the disaster.  I'm curious.  

The frame on medium alice packs have their uses for some stuff.  Jungle use, keeping the pack away from the back for instance.  External frames probably work better with belt kit, as the frame itself can sit directly on the kit, right up against the back, as close as it can get.  And additionally, while I'm doing this, I'm going to try to design a separate, but built into the design sleeping bag compartment pouch that isn't massive and weird in size that fits under the medium alice but still mostly on the frame, that you can still use belt kit with.  Something you can quickly detach and drop off somewhere.

Though I agree, for alot of the time, packs that size work better with internal stays.  I'm eventually going to do a version of the medium alice with aluminum stays too, since I'll already have the pack design done.  

And bro, that pack you did turned out pretty dang good, especially for your first big project attempt like that.

Post some pictures of the pack, including closeups of the MOLLE you need removed and done right.  I might be able to do it.  And yea, there is a decent difference in how tactical gear is sewn compared to clothing and such.  I mean, the same basic techniques and stuff is there - it's the little things and the whys and hows.  I've been showing some of my gear to my mother who taught me how to sew as a kid and she would be confused why I chose to make certain design and sewing decisions until I explained them to her, the why behind it.  She could totally reproduce it, maybe even cleaner than I could, but she didn't even think about doing it that way, because you just don't do some of this stuff at all with clothing.  

The pack fabric is super each to change around between 500d and 1000d and different camos.  While you might want to reinforce a point or three when using 500d, the pattern is still the same.  The reason they are using 1000d is that they were having problems with both the original large alice fabric ripping under the much larger loads some of these guys carry as airborne guys and such, especially dropping them off of trucks and dropping them when landing during a jump.  Especially when you realize that things like the external pockets are sewn directly to a single layer of 500d or 1000d fabric - that's easy enough to rip the pouch off or the main pack fabric in the wrong situation.  But 500d is definitely something that you could probably get away with on a medium alice, if you are careful reinforcing some places.  I've been dabbling with 500d for some things recently, it's been interesting the differences in the properties between the 500d and 1000d fabrics once you start sewing with them.  

Definitely no built in web belt.  I might design it with a bracket to attach one to it if you needed to, that's a possibility.  But I'm 100% going with the original idea of attaching it via frame.  No built in belt.

The rest of the stuff is easy to fix.

Ok, so I'm going to plan to do a trial run of modernized medium alice packs.  I need to finish up a few projects, then I'm going to work on that.  I'll do a few prototypes until I get it down, then I'll plan to do a run of 5 packs to see if anyone is interested.  I'll plan to do them in a mix of woodland and multicam 1000d cordura, unless someone wants to request something special or have it done in 500d instead.  (I'm going to be making the parts of the pack where the frame tie in at the top, the sleeve, out of 1000d and reinforce it a good bit regardless)

Also, please keep giving me ideas for mods and changes to make to the packs.  I want to keep them pretty close to the original design, but with molle attachment points instead of the old style, modern buckles, reinforcements, tape all the seams internally, not skimp on the sewing, modern materials, MOLLE potentially on top of the lid and on the bottom of the pack?  (How much and such?)  Zipper instead of velcro on the lid.  Cinch rain fly.  Hanger for water bladder.  What else?  

I'm not planning on doing belts or frames or straps at this point.  There are plenty of options out there.  If interest is enough, I'll eventually work on these I guess.

@marnsdorff

Easiest thing to do is use "Wayback" machine to access TacTailor's site when they were offering "Malice Pack Mods".  I'm guessing they ceased offering the mods about 2020, just after pandemic hit.

See what they were offering for inspiration as to which mods were most often requested.

IMHO, one thing most ALICE packs lack is adjustable horizontal/circumferential compression straps to cinch down the load.  Maybe two for most packs; one of them located to cinch the outside pockets as well as the main pack body, and the other above that.  Existing simple horizontal webbing channels/tunnels on sides of most ALICE packs will serve as locator points for such straps.; these are not the ALICE webbing sections which have grommets.  Webbing for snaps on outside of external pockets (which are "tunnels") can be used to locate the lower horizontal strap. Horiz compression strap is buckled with dual-adjust QD buckle.  Existing vertical lid closure straps were deliberately made long to secure items atop pack lid, and also vertically compress the pack body.

If strips of webbing are added to the bottom of a pack, such as the SpecOps pack mentioned above, suggest they be sized and located to be compatible with a GI Modular Sleeping System Carrier pouch.  Some additional 1" strapping may be needed to prevent "bouncing" of the MSS Carrier.

Decent grab handle at top of pack, and maybe one on each side.  This helps prevent pack stitching blow-out if user totes/grabs it by single shoulder strap

Install a section of webbing centered above each external pocket with ALICE-type webbing and install appropriate grommets in each section of webbing.  Folks can use this to secure items with M1910 GI belt "hooks", such as GI machete sheaths and axe/hatchet carriers.  Folks can use MOLLE ALICE Adaptor/MOLLE KBAR adaptors to attach items with belt loops, and which lack MOLLE/ALICE/M-1910 type attachments.  Existing length of OD webbing (with grommets) on ALICE packs is there to do this.  External pockets have "tunnels" between dorsal side of pack and the pockets for this reason.

Part of the overall idea in modding ALICE packs (as well as any pack), IMHO, it to take reasonable care and effort to make the mods as "Backward-Compatible" as is reasonably practicable.

One thing's for sure is that the unbound edges of the fabric inside the pack will need to be seared and bound, as well as reinforced in some places with extra stitching.  TT offered this stitching reinforcement mod, and showed a picture of it

In the ends of most adjustable straps, sew a small "tunnel/loop" that will hold and "trap" a section of One-Wrap which is used to roll-up unused end of straps.

Oh, yeah, almost forgot to add that decent, low-cost shoulder straps for the ALICE pack are nearly non-existent nowadays.  The very good USGI "Enhanced" LC-2 shoulder straps fetch high prices, when they can be found.   Enhanced LC-2 ALICE Shoulder Straps  Similar items from TT and other vendors bring even higher prices.  Also, devising a way to add a sternum strap to any version of ALICE shoulder straps might be a money-maker.

Probably need to make the sternum strap so that it is vertically secured by the metal QD hardware on all ALICE shoulder straps.

If I think of anything else, I'll post again.

Good idea.  I found the old TT Mods page.

And I'll go through and look at your suggestions, adding them to my to consider list.

LMK if I can help; I have much experience with ALICE packs (and similar) mounted on various platforms.

https://ordnance.jp/?pid=176806992

The tailor near Camp Hansen that does most of the custom work for Marines stationed in okinawa.

Still doing a lot of work on alice packs for Recon Marines from what i have read.

Please pitch any mod ideas you have.  And advice to make it more compatible with various platforms.  I don't have a metal ALICE frame anymore, just one of the FILBE ones.  I HAD a Mystery Ranch NICE frame years ago with a large alice on it, but I traded that out.  

I'm already planning on replacing all the old ALICE attachment points with MOLLE, replacing the buckles with modern buckles, reinforcing the attachment points, adding molle to the lid and possibly bottom.  Something on the bottom anyways.  Adding molle to the sides.  Drawstring cinch rainfly on the main pack.  Doing something to attach a sleeping bag system under the pack - I'm planning on making it compatible with the USGI sleep system pouch too, that was a good idea.  Compression straps for sure.  I still need to go through the rest of the suggestions in detail, and the tactical tailor ones.  But please, any more ideas or suggestions, throw them at me.  I'll be posting pics of the prototypes as I do them, so yall can give me some feedback on changes.  

Question.  Pocket pass-throughs behind the exterior pockets?  Yes / No?

Ok, that's two then.

I have one of the Turkish ALICE packs here, but it's not the exact same size as the Medium ALICE packs.  

Does anyone have an beat to crap Medium ALICE they want to donate to the cause so I can take it apart, figure out the construction details and pattern it?  I hate to go buy a working ALICE pack to take apart, they are getting rare enough as it is.

@marnsdorff  For the 200-250 I’d be in for one. I’d prefer ranger green 500d primarily with 1000d as needed for reinforcement. Bottom molle covered for lashing stuff too.  Also, keeping the side pouches right? I loved using those in scouts for 2L bottles of water on the Appalachian trail.

You have my attention

Berry compliant gear usually is.

This is the ruck I'm currently absuing.

Highground Gear Summit

Doesn't have to be.  There are plenty of other Berry Compliant packs out there that aren't a grand.

However, saying that, yea, I do get you.  Materials are expensive enough as they are, but the labor cost to make a quality item here in the USA is much much more than most people realize, especially on smaller production runs.

Cool.  That's 3.  2 more packs left.  

1.  I should be able to get Ranger Green fabric.  I will do them in whatever fabric someone wants, as long as I can get it or someone wants to send me the fabric.  My availability is relatively limited, as I'm not able to purchase large orders from the manufacturers and am limited what I can find from small distributors and on the secondary market.  But as of right now I can do Ranger Green.

2.  What kind of MOLLE would you like to see on the bottom?  This is one of the details I need worked out with everyone - I know we will be doing SOMETHING on the bottom, but what exactly?  MOLLE field sounds interesting, but what layout?  Up and down or sideways?  How many columns and rows?

3.  re: side pockets.  Right now I'm working with the base Medium ALICE design with the 3 stock pouches.  The question is, should I plan to add 2 more sewn on pouches on the sides, one on each side of the pack,between the stock outer pouch and the frame?  Maybe one of my Nalgene water bottle pouches?  Different pouch?  Or should I just put MOLLE there so people can swap their own pouches in and out?

1.  I'm doing at least the 3 stock sewn on pouches for myself and planning on doing that as the norm unless someone just wants an all-MOLLE covered pack, no sewn on pouches.  I can do that, but we'll have to figure out pricing separate for that one.  

The other question with sewn on pouches vs. MOLLE is addressed in the comment above, re: the side pockets.

2.  I'm going to work on the slip on cover a bit, reinforce it one way or the other.  I'll look into slimming it down, I do want this as streamlined as possible.  I don't know what thickness of foam they have in there, I'll play around with that while working the pattern and report back with a prototype and we can all talk about the best way to go with that then.  

3.  Laser cut molle has long term issues with sagging and eventually delaminating or straight up fabric ripping, especially with heavy loads put on them.  It's fine for smaller pouches though.  Plus the material used to make the laser cut molle is like $55 / yard vs. $10-20 / yard for Cordura.  ie, your pack will end up costing SIGNIFICANTLY more in materials cost.

But that doesn't matter anyways, I don't have access to free laser cutting    :-D  :-D  :-D  

4.  I'm PLANNING on making these with either 1000d Cordura or a combo of 500d and 1000d Cordura, depending on what people want.  And what fabric I can get ahold of in some cases.  If I could get ahold of OD green ALICE pack material, I would totally make that an option (strategically reinforced with 1000d Cordura) but I can only get black ALICE pack style fabric.  If you want a black one, I can totally do that though I guess.  (I DO wish they would make it in OD again btw.  It does have good properties for certain things.)

5.  I'm not planning on shipping these with frames or straps or belt.  I currently have a FILBE frame and I need to look into what it takes for the Crossfire frame to be adapted (ie, what kind of straps do I need to use the frame?) for the ALICE.  I wish I had a metal ALICE frame to test compatibility with.  

The BEST option for everyone, unless they want to go budget and piece together surplus straps, belt, and a FILBE frame, would be to just get a set of Crossfire frame and suspension, but they aren't selling those separate right now.  For the money, it's just a touch more than buying a set of quality straps, belt, and frame for the pack.  And the Crossfire one is SIGNIFICANTLY better than any of the other options.  

Either way, I want these packs compatible with all the choices, without cutting corners.

6.  The map pouch is staying, i'm planning on a zipper instead of the velcro.  

While we are on the subject of lids, MOLLE field on top or a sewn in utility pouch?  What size MOLLE?  (I'm doing a utility pouch for mine one way or the other)

Which part?

I’ve been using a Kelly Falcon, but Alice is my first love. I recently managed to get a medium in decent condition and I’ve been looking at how to make it work for what I want. What I have been playing with in my mind is how to make it both a patrol and assault pack. I’ve considered having a smaller assault pack shoved in it, separate waterproof bags I could take out and leave in a patrol base, adding pouches to the outside, etc.

The thing that jumped off the page to me was the detachable sleep system. Something like that that could hold a sleeping bag, maybe a Ranger roll, cold weather gear, etc. It could be dropped in the patrol base and the ruck itself would be the assault pack.

From marmsdorff:  "Question.  Pocket pass-throughs behind the exterior pockets?  Yes / No?"

Yes.  Long items attached to the horizontal webbing above the pockets, passed vertically behind the pockets, and prevented from swaying.  It's a feature.

Rockywoods in Colorado carries an Olive Green 400 Denier nylon pack cloth that may meet what you're thinking about and is lighter than 1000D or 500D.  They also carry a laminated X-Pac 330 that is hell-for-strong but really expensive.

Yea, that's what I was thinking about the sleeping system pouch.  Something you can drop off the medium ALICE with your patrol base sustainment load - maybe drop off a dry bag with your food in it too, from your main pack - then roll with minimal sustainment gear, food, water, and extra ammo in the pack.  If I can figure out a way to make it connect via fastex buckles, it would be quick and easy to drop the sleeping system pouch.  This is one of things that intrigues me about the Medium ALICE - it's short and squat, with possibly enough room under it to run a thinnish sleeping system bag  under the main pack, on the frame.

Yup.  That's why I was asking.  If enough people wanted it to make it a thing.  Trying to balance cost vs. features - everything I do to it adds cost   :-D  

I've got some of the 400D packcloth.  It's....ok.  It's not as nice as the oldschool ALICE pack cloth.  They DO have the nice 420D packcloth like on the ALICE, but it's only in black on there.  Again - I'm willing to make a pack in any of these materials for someone.  I'll warranty the regular materials, but not something like the 400d.  I just don't think it's strong enough.  

There is a 400d Cordura fabric that is out there I've played with a little bit.  It's better than the packcloth.  It's literally a slightly thinner 500d Cordura.  Availability is iffy.  But if someone wanted to go lighter than 500d, that's a possibility.

And yea, I'll do one in the XPAC fabric if someone wanted.  Which is legit nice.  But like you said, expensive.  It's a possibility to use this to reinforce certain areas too.  Things like the bottom side of the lid - or the whole lid itself - wouldn't be bad to do in this, it's way more waterproof than cordura.  The side of the pack that rides up against the frame would be a good place to use this too.    Again - balance cost vs. features.

Yes, that's the plan.  Fully ALICE compatible.  

How much molle on top?  

I'll post up some pics of my "Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra" (what a horribly long name) this weekend.

I just need to have some take a seam ripper and remove the MOLLE rows my seamstress messed up royally and then have them done correctly.

I love the capacity of a large Alice. I hated having to hump that bitch everywhere

Years ago, another member posted up what he called the Hellcat where he adapted a medium Alice with the sleeping system and MOLLE straps. Always wanted to try it, but never got around to it.

MOLLE on the bottom should go side to side. Definitely MOLLE on the lid.

I have an idea on MOLLE on the sides of the pack but I’m not sure how to put it into words. I’ll get some pictures when I get home and post them up

I'll look at the pics, I can probably do that for you.

Go for it.

What about putting MOLLE along the side of the bag and the pocket?

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This would give a lot of real estate for adding a large pouch for an IFAK, mags, sustainment, etc. especially if it also continued up the side of the bag to the top.

Molle running onto the pocket would probably lead to a lot of sag.  I would just make sure you have at least enough space for three columns of Molle, and as many rows as you can fit.

Here is another idea……floating/removable lid.  You can use a simple flap top or make the top a little larger to work as a daypack.  Diz bestowed on my a daypack lid which works awesome in both facets.  A current mod is using a pan ILBE lid on the Alice pack in the same way.  Personally I like a larger lid pocket.  But everyone has different  preferences.

Do me a favor and measure the distance between the frame and the edge of the pocket, right there where that square metal bracket is attached to the frame with the 2 rivets.  Let's see how many columns of molle we can shove in there without going onto the pocket, which will be a pain to do.

Yea it would sag, along with it will be a pain in the ass to try and continue webbing onto the pocket, or line the webbing up on both the pocket and the pack, and make it look good.  I can make it WORK, but it has to look good too or else everyone hates it.

And yea, at least 3, preferably 4 columns of molle.  Though definitely as much as I can, I'm not one to skimp on some stuff.

I've thought about adding a water bottle pocket on the bottom side, the expanding-slash type that alot of packs have.  But I don't think the ALICE fits that well.  I need to figure out a way to add a water bottle pouch in the corner of the frame between the waist belt and the frame.  For people who are going to run the pack with a cut off or loose belt, sitting on top of belt kit.  If you understand what I mean.






I am planning on doing a simple ALICE pack style lid with MOLLE on top (or a simple pouch, I personally like the pouch), but DEFINITELY making it free floating.  And making the attachments compatible with the Crossfire pack lids so that people can swap things around - ie, get the daypack lid.