User Panel
Posted: 5/13/2024 7:08:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -Obsessed-]
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[#1]
Try peeing on it
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[Last Edit: -Obsessed-]
[#2]
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[Last Edit: AmericanPeople]
[#3]
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[#4]
Would mulch around it do anything?
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[#5]
I'm not a tree expert. However, I would suggest clearing grass from around the trunk. Everything I have ever read recommends having a clear tree ring the width of the widest part of the canopy. The grass can/will pull nutrients from the roots that close to the tree trunk
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[#6]
The top is dead, and likely not coming back (see comment above about pliability of top).
A new terminal leader could come out of what you have left. But why are they dying? Frosted? Crazy bad soil (unlikely based on the grass), |
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[#7]
You need to get rid of that grass around the tree, you want a 4 foot or so mulched area.
What does the soil look like? Mulch and a slow release fertilizer should work. |
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"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."
L.P. Hartley |
[#8]
Is oak blight prevalent in your area?
They are small enough that they could be treated with the fungicide propiconazole. All my red oaks are 80-150 years old and were half gone last season. |
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[#9]
It is pretty much dead. I would cut it down and plant something else.
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[#10]
New neighborhood "builder grade" guys that planted the tree may or may not have cut the wrapper on the root ball, or infilled it with construction debris junk dirt
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There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
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[#11]
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople: Do you water them during the winter? Deep watering...not just a gallon or two. Are the bare limbs pliable or dead? View Quote Not during the winter. I use watering bags from spring until fall though. I have a fertilizer liquid that I pour in. I can get details if that matters. The branches don't seem quite dead oddly enough. I can bend htem enough to break, but they don't snap off clean, they still need to be twisted/torn apart, if that makes sense. |
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[#12]
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[#13]
Trim off the dead wood. Keep them watered and fertilized and they will probably recover fine.
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[#14]
Originally Posted By Austin4130: New neighborhood "builder grade" guys that planted the tree may or may not have cut the wrapper on the root ball, or infilled it with construction debris junk dirt View Quote The entire yard is backfill from 3 or 4 basements. They had to bring in dozens of dump trunks worth of fill to grade the backyard and side yard. The front yard doesn't have fill. I have a river birch up there that is doing okay. not great, not dead. |
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[#15]
Originally Posted By Chukar: Is oak blight prevalent in your area? They are small enough that they could be treated with the fungicide propiconazole. All my red oaks are 80-150 years old and were half gone last season. View Quote Not sure...I'm in SW Ohio. Is there any other signs/symptoms I can look for? Happy to pick up fungicide. It's odd that my neighbor who also has a few oaks (not sure the exact species) and his trees are growing like gangbusters. I'm about to shave enough off these it will take a decade to grow back. |
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[Last Edit: Consigli]
[#16]
Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: The entire yard is backfill from 3 or 4 basements. They had to bring in dozens of dump trunks worth of fill to grade the backyard and side yard. The front yard doesn't have fill. I have a river birch up there that is doing okay. not great, not dead. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: Originally Posted By Austin4130: New neighborhood "builder grade" guys that planted the tree may or may not have cut the wrapper on the root ball, or infilled it with construction debris junk dirt The entire yard is backfill from 3 or 4 basements. They had to bring in dozens of dump trunks worth of fill to grade the backyard and side yard. The front yard doesn't have fill. I have a river birch up there that is doing okay. not great, not dead. Its never good when they lose the top soil during construction. Now the tree is trying to grow in poor subsoil. Get the soil tested to see what is lacking and you may be able to supplement. I would prune, water and fertilize and give them until fall to recover. And also inoculate the tree drip line and rootball with mycorrhiza. Good luck. |
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[#17]
Well, in the first place, your “red sunset oaks” are really red maples.
Trash trees. But, there’s not a lot you can do, that’s worthwhile doing. Consider watering during dry periods. The biggest problem is the site likely heavily compacted soils, with disturbed horizons, leading to poor growing conditions. Plus, they’re basically planted in a parking lot, so you’ve got all the heat and non natural conditions. |
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GD is like putting on crampons and walking through a room full of puppies.
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[Last Edit: FredMan]
[#18]
Originally Posted By 1775: I'm not a tree expert. However, I would suggest clearing grass from around the trunk. Everything I have ever read recommends having a clear tree ring the width of the widest part of the canopy. The grass can/will pull nutrients from the roots that close to the tree trunk View Quote If it makes you feel better, and if you think it looks better, then sure. But that grass is not presenting competitive issues for the trees. Now, lawn chemicals? Weed killers? That and the site are the likely culprits. |
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GD is like putting on crampons and walking through a room full of puppies.
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[Last Edit: Krauss]
[#19]
Verticillium wilt
Dig it up and replace it. There’s no cure for it. Don’t let it spread to any of your other plants or trees. You’ll need to dig out a good chunk of the soil in and around that tree as the soil is what gets infected and hosts the disease. So it doesn’t happen to a new tree. |
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[#20]
Originally Posted By FredMan: If it makes you feel better, and if you think it looks better, then sure. But that grass is not presenting competitive issues for the trees. Now, lawn chemicals? Weed killers? That and the site are the likely culprits. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By FredMan: Originally Posted By 1775: I'm not a tree expert. However, I would suggest clearing grass from around the trunk. Everything I have ever read recommends having a clear tree ring the width of the widest part of the canopy. The grass can/will pull nutrients from the roots that close to the tree trunk If it makes you feel better, and if you think it looks better, then sure. But that grass is not presenting competitive issues for the trees. Now, lawn chemicals? Weed killers? That and the site are the likely culprits. Agree. Weed and feed fertilizers can damage tree roots. Also a possibility the tree roots are circling due to poor soil. |
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[#21]
Originally Posted By Austin4130: New neighborhood "builder grade" guys that planted the tree may or may not have cut the wrapper on the root ball, or infilled it with construction debris junk dirt View Quote That's my guess as well. If you grab the trunk and wiggle it does the base move? Likely root bound and it's a goner if so. |
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[#22]
Trees die from the top down...
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[#23]
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[#24]
I’d cut the tops out and see what happens.
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[Last Edit: -Obsessed-]
[#25]
Originally Posted By FredMan: Well, in the first place, your “red sunset oaks” are really red maples. Trash trees. But, there’s not a lot you can do, that’s worthwhile doing. Consider watering during dry periods. The biggest problem is the site likely heavily compacted soils, with disturbed horizons, leading to poor growing conditions. Plus, they’re basically planted in a parking lot, so you’ve got all the heat and non natural conditions. View Quote Just double checked. You're right, they are maples. Why a trash tree? Is there a better tree that would fit the rough color and growth profile that would be better? |
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[#26]
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[Last Edit: Engineer5]
[#27]
Already mentioned but it looks root bound. I'm guessing the cage or ball wrap wasn't removed when planting. It's pure laziness on the installers part and happens all the time.
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-Things do not happen. Things are made to happen. -JFK
-Beware the fury of a patient man. -Thousands and thousands of laws....All for just ten commandments. -"alot" is not a word. |
[#28]
Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: Tree is in there solid. Zero wiggle. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: Originally Posted By NWJohnny: That's my guess as well. If you grab the trunk and wiggle it does the base move? Likely root bound and it's a goner if so. Tree is in there solid. Zero wiggle. If you don't figure out what happened to these trees, the next ones will probably fare no better. I'd start off with a soil analysis. |
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[#29]
The core of that tree is alive
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[#30]
I bet your neighbor doesn't do shit to his. Try that.
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[#31]
Originally Posted By Engineer5: Already mentioned but it looks root bound. I'm guessing the cage or ball wrap wasn't removed when planting. It's pure laziness on the installers part and happens all the time. View Quote Is it easy enough to just dig down and take a look? I'm way out of my realm on green stuff. |
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[#32]
Run it over with the golf cart and replant a new tree.
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[Last Edit: Consigli]
[#33]
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[#34]
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GD is like putting on crampons and walking through a room full of puppies.
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[#35]
30 years as a landscape contractor for big name builders.
Home owner: Will it come back? Me: Maybe ,but probably not as a tree. Never got old for me but it always pissed my son a bit . It's dying Jim |
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[#36]
Prune out the dead top. It will make a new leader/shoot. You don't really gain anything planting a large root ball tree. Takes them 3 years to recover. I have a red sunset that is 30 years old below my deck. A white oak that was planted as a acorn has caught it and passed it in size. Your tree will be fine. Just keep it pruned for a central leader so that the limbs don't get so low to be hard to mow under. I know what I'm talking about. Consider a scarlet oak for color and a Autum Blacze (acer fremani) for color in the fall. Don't plant any tree within 25 yards of your septic system. Black Gums are great trees also.
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[Last Edit: mchgnxj24]
[#37]
Try root excavation and some specific tree fertilizer. It saved both our Japanese Maple and Royal Star Magnolia.
They both came back and look awesome this year. Root Excavation Dying from the top down is a symptom. |
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[#38]
When you plant the replacement make sure that the top of the root ball is about 3" higher than grade.
Did you have a drought last year? |
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[#39]
Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: Not during the winter. I use watering bags from spring until fall though. I have a fertilizer liquid that I pour in. I can get details if that matters. The branches don't seem quite dead oddly enough. I can bend htem enough to break, but they don't snap off clean, they still need to be twisted/torn apart, if that makes sense. View Quote I can break live branches as well. Use small limbs that are not primary ones and only bend it 30 degrees or so. If it is dead it will snap off. Is there abrasion/cutting of the trunk near ground level? You have to avoid damage while the tree is young. You might allow it to go one more year to give it time to come back. At some point you will have to decide if you will replace it or cut off the dead part and allow one of the live limbs to take over and become the new trunk. Look up pruning details. |
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[#40]
That is a maple, not oak.
I'd just remove it. Most likely planter didn't remove bag, girdled, planted too deep, or poor compacted soil. But I'd bet girdled. If it were birch or ash, I'd look for borers. If replacing, check soil condition and correct as necessary. Guys suggesting topping it? Don't. No legit arborist tops. The resultant sprouts (epicormic, water) are weakly attached. Not only will it look like shit, they are extremely prone to tear-out. Maples are already pretty brittle all on their own. |
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[#41]
Furthermore, those lower scaffold branches are going to get big, making it a pain to mow or move under that tree. Limbs don't grow up as the tree grows up. They stay at the height they are at and continue to get bigger. You can make a small wound now when you're training the tree, which is what you should be doing, or make a big wound later when the limbs are big and have become a pain in your ass. Problem here is that you don't have a lot of live foliage remaining for energy production, and tree is already stressed.
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[Last Edit: FredMan]
[#42]
Originally Posted By tuckybill: Prune out the dead top. It will make a new leader/shoot. You don't really gain anything planting a large root ball tree. Takes them 3 years to recover. I have a red sunset that is 30 years old below my deck. A white oak that was planted as a acorn has caught it and passed it in size. Your tree will be fine. Just keep it pruned for a central leader so that the limbs don't get so low to be hard to mow under. I know what I'm talking about. Consider a scarlet oak for color and a Autum Blacze (acer fremani) for color in the fall. Don't plant any tree within 25 yards of your septic system. Black Gums are great trees also. View Quote Sorry, not saying you don’t, but that sounds a lot like “I know what I got!” If it’s a root issue, and it almost certainly is, that trees a goner. Sure, you can prune back to force a new leader, but what’s the point? I’d also like to point out that blackgum isn’t really a “great tree” in my opinion (my forester opinion), meh fall colors and I don’t particularly like the foliage. What blackgum does have going for it is it’s adaptation to wet soils. “But I don’t have wet soils, why should that be a consideration?” you might ask. There’s a good reason, but first it helps to know a little about silviculture. Leaves take in carbon dioxide and give off oxygen. Roots, on the other hand, respire through oxygen uptake. The only available oxygen to roots is in the pore space in the soil. Roots grow leaves, and leaves grow trees. Trees that evolved on wet sites (I.e. sites where the soil is commonly saturated, with the pore space being occupied by water) are adapted to low soil oxygen. Now, what’s in common between sites like OP’s and wet sites? Lack of available oxygen. In swamps, it’s because the pore space is taken up by water. On development sites, it’s because there’s greatly diminished pore space due to soil compaction from construction. Ever wonder why river birch is commonly planted as a landscape tree? Because it’s also adapted to low oxygen soils. Now, if you replace that tree (and you will), when you dig the hole make at least twice as wide and twice as deep as you think you need. Backfill with topsoil you buy at Lowes. Also, when you plant it, remove all the packing materials on the root ball. Then, take a big knife and make vertical slashes a few inches in all around the edge of the root ball. This will help stimulate root growth, and that big hole of uncompacted soil will give those roots oxygen and an easy start in growth. Try to make the cuts as clean as possible. I’ve got an ESEE 4” knife that I’ve relegated to be my “digger” knife, and that’s what I use. Keep lawn chemicals away, and make sure and give lots of water the first growing season. Also keep in mind a few other facts: 90% of a trees roots that are responsible for uptake of water and nutrients are within 6 inches of the soil surface (pore space, remember?) Those roots extend WAY beyond the “drip line”, that outermost part of the tree’s crown. A mature tree in the forest may have roots extending hundreds of feet from the tree. And those roots graft together with roots of other trees, in many cases with disregard for species. What this means is that over time, as the tree grows, what you put on your lawn is going to impact those roots, even when it’s applied far from the tree. |
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GD is like putting on crampons and walking through a room full of puppies.
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[#43]
For what it's worth that looks like a root issue. It could be almost anything. But when tree damage is that localized, it usually means the roots supporting those branches are damaged, diseased, or cut. I've seen tree guys plant things in a clay basin with zero soil amendment, just drowning the tree. Too deep, no mulch, still wrapped, sometimes below grade still in containers, you name it.
That said I have had significant top dieback on a maple from an untimely frost. The tree looked like yours, but has since recovered. |
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[Last Edit: jalcon9]
[#44]
It's planted way too deep for starters. Give it a 3' or so mulched circle around it, and make sure you leave the root flare exposed at the soil line. Give it another year or two. It has a chance.
Also that's a red maple. |
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[#46]
Have you bothered feeding them since you planted them?
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[#47]
Originally Posted By FS7: For what it's worth that looks like a root issue. It could be almost anything. But when tree damage is that localized, it usually means the roots supporting those branches are damaged, diseased, or cut. I've seen tree guys plant things in a clay basin with zero soil amendment, just drowning the tree. Too deep, no mulch, still wrapped, sometimes below grade still in containers, you name it. That said I have had significant top dieback on a maple from an untimely frost. The tree looked like yours, but has since recovered. View Quote Not an expert but my thoughts too of a root issue. If you had a lot of clay packed into the yard for fill/leveling then you can have issues with the roots not being able to spread and suffocating. Could also be as simple as the wrap not being removed if installer was lazy as others mentioned. Would have a local nursery, not landscape company, try and dig it up completely to diagnose it. Re-plant if viable and fertilize appropriately and consider cutting out a ring and mulch as other have also mentioned. |
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[#48]
It looks like they were planted too deep to start with. If you want to try to save them remove enough of the soil to expose the flare of the trunk just above the roots then fertilize with a balanced fertilizer and water regularly. If they don't respond in a couple of months just replace them.
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[#49]
Originally Posted By 1775: I'm not a tree expert. However, I would suggest clearing grass from around the trunk. Everything I have ever read recommends having a clear tree ring the width of the widest part of the canopy. The grass can/will pull nutrients from the roots that close to the tree trunk View Quote This here. Most oaks are allelopathic and their leaves and acorns have tannins that kill other plants on the ground. They do not like competing for water and nutrients. With a younger tree, you will need to help it out. As for the dead part up top, that could be from oak wilt. Call your county extension office and have them take a look. That is what they are there for. |
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[#50]
Originally Posted By Krauss: Verticillium wilt Dig it up and replace it. There’s no cure for it. Don’t let it spread to any of your other plants or trees. You’ll need to dig out a good chunk of the soil in and around that tree as the soil is what gets infected and hosts the disease. So it doesn’t happen to a new tree. View Quote I’m going to quote myself again or we can keep saying things that don’t matter. While I agree the grass around the tree isn’t ideal I don’t think this is your issue. OP. Take a branch cutting off the tree. Does it look like this inside? Attached File Attached File Also take a close up of the leaves. |
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