The 9mm load below was used in the Illinois State Police pistols, IIRC. I'm guessing other agencies as well. The Illinois police were happy or very happy with it.

In ballistic gel, the above load penetrated less than the accepted minimum, though I don't recall the specific test.

Why was one or more police departments happy with this load with it's insufficient penetration? The only thing I can think of is maybe they trained to shoot the lower thorax (gut), therefore the bullets were not stopped or slowed down by bone.


https://www.sgammo.com/product/federal-ammo-sale/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-p-federal-115-grain-hollow-point-ammo-9bple-read

The Illinois State Police purchased some Federal 9BP after the initial lot of Winchester Silvertip was found to be defective.  The original Silvertip used a zinc alloy jacket.   In hot weather the bullet lube seeped into the powder charge which reduced velocity.  Winchester developed the Ranger 115 grain JHP +P+ ammo at the request of the ISP.   The Winchester Ranger 115 grain +P+ developed 1300 FPS out of a 4” 39/439 and about 1250-1275 FPS out of a 469 3.5” barrel.   The ISP Tactical teams fired thousands of rounds out of their Colt submachine guns.   To my knowledge the ISP didn’t have any incidence of inadequate penetration with the Ranger +P+ 115 grain JHP.  I don’t remember the ISP issuing or purchasing any Federal 115 grain +P+ 9 mm ammo.  It is possible District 15 Tollway District purchased Federal 9 mm 115 grain +P+ but not while I was there.


The ISP issued Winchester 115 grain +P+ bullet penetrated the drivers door of a stolen pickup truck then struck two escapees in the cab.  The bullet perforated the leg of the driver and the bullet was lodged in the calf just under the skin of the passenger.   In another incident a perp shot at some Troopers and hid behind a refrigerator.  The Trooper returned fire where the bullets penetrated the fridge and barely missed the perp who decided it was time to surrender.   I liked the S&W autos I was issued and our 115 grain +P+ Winchester ammo.   The ISP transitioned to the Glock 22/23 with 180 grain JHP ammo in 1999/2000.   The ISP conducted most training using the Winchester 115 grain +P+ ammo since equivalent training ammo wasn’t available.  One reason for switching to 40 was the use of standard pressure 180 grain JHP ammo and the availability of cheaper 180 grain FMJ training ammo.

The incidence where the Federal 115 grain +P+ JHP was used on the street suggested it had comparable results to the Winchester bullet.   I dispatched many injured deer in my career and in my experience the Winchester 115 grain +P+ had very similar performance to the Remington/Winchester 125 grain 357 JHP out of my 4” model 66.   My issued ammo when I retired was the Federal 180 grain HST which I used in my issued Glock 22.3 and my 27.3.   I liked the Glock pistols and I liked my S&W autos as self defense weapons.


I put more faith in awareness, tactics and bullet placement over the particular bullet or caliber.  I’ve carried 380, 38/357, 9 mm, 40 and 45 in my career and survived.   Granted if I knew there was a high risk situation and I had time I grabbed a 12 gauge or 5.56.

Here is a picture of some 9 mm cartridges previously issued by the ISP.  The top cartridge is a Winchester 95 grain jacketed soft point.   The next four cartridges with nickel cases are Federal 95 grain Jacketed Soft Point.   The last six cartridges are Winchester 100 grain round nose full metal jacket.  I read where ISP first issued 123 grain or 115 grain Full Metal Jacket ammo when they adopted the S&W model 39 in approximately 1968.  

The ISP was trying to improve performance and the risk of over penetration by switching to the Winchester 100 grain FMJ.  The Democrat Governor would not authorize hollow point ammunition so the ISP issued the Federal 95 grain jacketed soft point ammo.  When I started my LE career in  Illinois in 1977 the ISP was issuing the Federal 95 grain JSP.  ISP only issued the Winchester 95 grain JSP for a short time since Republican Governor Jim Thompson authorized the use of JHP ammo.   The ISP purchased the original Winchester Silvertip 115 grain ammo.



Here is a picture of the Winchester 95 grain JSP with brass case next to the Federal JSP with nickel cases.



Here is a picture of the six Winchester 100 grain FMJ with nickel cases.



You have to remember one of the first Companies who tried to improve performance of handgun ammunition was Super Vel in the late 60’s to the early 70’s.   To my knowledge Super Vel was one of the first companies to release hollow point handgun ammunition and basically started the use of +P pressure in the 38 Special.

By the time I started in LE hollow point and soft point ammunition was being manufactured by Winchester, Remington, Federal and Speer.   It was very common for LE to still carry revolvers many times with a variety of ammo including 158 grain round nose lead or semi wad cutters.   Most agencies carried revolvers and used 148 grain 38 special wad cutters for training or qualification.   At that time you needed a light weight bullet to get enough velocity to get any expansion.

Back in the 70’s it appeared to me that cartridges that produced 400 foot pounds of energy were the better performers.   Why the 41 mag, 357 mag and 45 ACP were desired by LE.   Politics and budgets really dictated policing.   There wasn’t much standardized law enforcement training till the late 60’s to 70’s in much of the USA.   The 9 mm and semi autos were not common in LE except where permitted for individual officer purchase and use prior to the early to mid 80’s.

@VASCAR2

Thank you for the informative post.

@VASCAR2

Thanks for the second informative post.

I never really understood soft points in common pistol calibers but I guess if they are lighter than typical, and the pressure is high (as evidenced by the box the rounds are on top of), the superior velocity will make them expand.

As for revolvers, I read police agencies/officers never really moved from the .38 Special to the .44 Special due to the weight of the N-Frame revolvers. I don't know if that is true or not.

I'm not VASCAR2, but I always appreciate his posts.  I worked in a police department the the early 1980 and kept up with guns and ammo.  An N-frame revolvers weighs about 48 oz., while a K-frame Model 66 weight about 36 oz.  Then there's the extra weight of the ammo, etc.  The extra weight deters officers from choosing the heavier pistol.  Combine that with the cost difference between practice .38 Spl. ammo vs. .44 Spl. and you'll see why the larger calibers never caught on.

The county and towns where I worked generally had liberal personally owned handgun policies.  I saw a couple .41 Mag. and a .44 Mag. revolvers traded among local officers.  No one kept them long.  And certainly no one bought ammo to qualify with with the big pistols, when the local academy furnished .38 Spl. for in-service qualification.

I had a friend who carried a Model 57 in 41 Magnum, who handloaded his ammo with a medium power load.  Recoil was no more than my Ruger in .357, but the Model 57 never seemed to fit my hand.  I kept carrying the Ruger as long as I worked.

The handgun soft points were used by the ISP because hollow point ammunition had not been approved.  I read the Federal 95 grain soft point produced about 1275 to 1300 FPS out of a model 39.   I have so few of the Federal 95 grain JSP that I don’t want to waste them to get the velocity.   The 95 grain soft point had a flat point which tended to reduce penetration in combination to lighter bullet weight.  A Friend of mine was one of the first crime scene investigators and attended hundreds of autopsies.   He told me it was common for handgun hollow point bullets not to expand (this was in the late 70’s and early 80’s).   In my opinion it is difficult to predict how a projectile will perform because of the unique circumstances than can come into play whether in hunting or self defense.   I think defensive ammunition has a better chance at performing as advertised today but I don’t discount what worked effectively in the past.


It’s interesting to look at police officers photographs from the late 1800’s through the 1960’s and see what equipment they used.  I grew up in southwest Indiana and the majority of Police Officers had to provide their own handgun.  Some Agencies specified what could be carried and others didn’t.  By the time I started riding in Police cars the majority of Officers were carrying K frame S&W 38 or 357 with 4” barrel.   A local Sheriff’s Department of about 50 Deputies had a few guys who were carrying nickel 5” model 27.   There were also a few Deputies who carried nickel model 59’s in 1975/76.   There was no standard for duty ammunition in this Sheriff’s department and I think the Deputies had to provide their ammunition if it was not 38 Special.   The Department had 38 Special 148 grain wadcutter for qualification.  I don’t really remember any actual handgun training other than the yearly qualification.  At that time the Indiana Police Academy was ten weeks and included firearms training.

When I went through the Illinois Police Academy in 1977 it was six weeks.   The Academy had model 64’s and model 59’s for recruits to use and for those that didn’t bring their own handgun.   The range staff weren’t advocates of the 9 mm even though about four in my class shot S&W 9’s.  One Deputy recruit brought his department 1911 Colt Government model.


Many Officers carried handguns in cross draw open top holsters until the 70’s to 80’s.   It was very common to carry cross draw because violators or arrested people were transported in the right passenger seat of Police cars.  Seeing how most Officers were right handed it was thought keeping the handgun further from the violator was safer.

The local Police Department who hired me issued model 66’s with leather gear and handcuffs.  Up until the model 66’s were purchased in about 1974 there were older Officers who were carrying very old 32 S&W Long and 38 S&W revolvers.   Up until the 70’s many Police Departments didn’t have a merit system and you worked at the discretion of the Mayor or Sheriff.   If there was a change of Sheriff or Mayor in the election the Deputy or Police Officer could be out of a job.

I even remember the days where there was a Justice of Peace for handling minor violations and the Sheriff lived in the Jail and cooked the meals for those incarcerated.

The 9BPLE was one of the first “high performance” hollow points when law enforcement use of a semi auto was in its infancy. While a good performer for its time the design is roughly 4 decades old now. Eclipsed by more modern stuff these days, but it was easily the best available in the 1980’s

Jacketed soft point and hollow point handgun ammunition goes all the way back to the 19th century. They tried, they understood the idea perfectly well, they just weren't able to get consistent performance and feeding wasn't always reliable.  Winston Churchill carried a C96 Mauser loaded with soft point cartridges early in his career.  
There was a lot of bias against expanding bullets at that time, mostly because of the performance of the rifle cartridges, where soft point bullets had the velocity to work quite well.  Not much was done with handgun bullets after those first efforts.  Experimenters cast hollow point lead bullets and loaded them in revolvers of the time, usually with a powder charge heavy enough to provide the velocity to make them work, and a lead tin alloy which was soft enough to expand, but didn't lead the barrel too quickly.  That gets the story up to the modern world, which has already been covered well.
The bias against expanding handgun bullets seems to have died out.  I can remember old-timers telling me that hollow points were illegal.  They also told me it was illegal to own gold, some people just never catch up with modern times.
Mickey Spillane even had his PI Mike Hammer cut the jackets off of the noses of his .45 ACP bullets in one book.  Kind of hard to do with a pocket knife, but if any one could do it, it would be Mike Hammer.

The first department I worked for issued the 115 grain +P+ Winchester JHP.  We carried the Beretta 92 and had good success with the ammunition in the couple of shootings we had between the time I started and the time we switched to the .40 S&W.  Of course, at that time, we had actual firearms training, not just qualification.  Even the officers who we not shooters on their own time we good quality shooters.  So, I suspect the results we got were mostly a function of shot placement not bullet design (just like they are now).

because it works

and back then -- it was 'the best'.   nowadays of course there are a multitude of premium options

additionally -- the QC is very good -- nickel cases, case cannelure, etc

Pretty much it right here. The dynamics of JHP bullets were not quite worked out yet in the 80's so they substituted power/velocity in exchange for consistent expansion. And it worked pretty well in most cases. It wasnt the best through all forms of cover like window glass but generally worked well otherwise at a time where the only other options were very fast SP (357 125gr SJSP) or the big slow calibers like 45 or 44Spl.  

Then the 40SW came and it provided power/mass with a heavy 180gr bullet with enough velocity (950-1000fps) to expand reliably AND provided capacity over revolvers and larger calibers like the 45 or 10mm. The 40 is still my favorite caliber for SD and I carried it for my whole 20 years (Win. 180gr SXT (Black Talon), then Ranger-T, then Ranger, etc).

Now days bullet design has been developed enough where the bullet expands at a variety of velocities and through barriers such as heavy clothing and some cover like window glass. I think that those old 115 +P+ loads (Fed 9BPLE and the Win +P+)are still viable today but you can get more consistent performance now without the +P+. I'd rather carry the HST 124 or 147 personally.

@MFP_4073

I'm surprised it worked as good as it did because as I mentioned in my original post, the load did not penetrate to the minimum depth in ballistic gel. Perhaps this was in bare ballistic gel and the bad guys shot by the load had clothing/jackets/coats on that made the bullet penetrate further than if they didn't have clothes/jackets/coats on.

I wonder how far this load penetrated into the bad guys.

I believe the bullet this +P+ load uses is the same one their standard pressure load of that era used.

Its actually a good loading.   Check the statistics on it, it provides a 90% one shot stop.

As an FYI...The projectile for this load tends to not expand at standard 9mm velocities

I believe the FBI minimum penetration standard is a worst-case standard. If the bullet has to go though a forearm, at an odd angle, or against an unusually large (fat) person...then the 12" minimum is important. But for a "typical" unobstructed shot, probably less than 12" is fine. Plus the bullet exploding/fragmenting violently adds to the effectiveness for those unobstructed shots. I guess most OIS are either unobstructed shots to the body/head or multiple shots are fired and the cumulative damage gets it done.

Another to remember is that standard came post 1986 and it wasn’t the only standard that was offered. I believe it was the CBP who advocated for a 10” minimum and that particular loading consistently did that. The 9bple loading depending on the test tends to fall in the 11-13” range from what I’ve seen so while by today standards it’s on the short side at the time they were a very solid performer for the agencies that used them. Probably one of the best options in 9mm then, we are really spoiled today in having a large amount of solid option.

One thing that might not be commonly known was the ISP desired a bullet that wouldn’t over penetrate and preferably stay in the target.   It was my understanding it was not unusual to find a W-W Ranger 115 grain JHP +P+ in the outer garment after perforating the target.  The ISP wanted a bullet that dumped all it’s energy in the target in a similar manner as the 125 grain semi jacketed hollow point in 357 magnum.

The Winchester Ranger +P+ 115 grain JHP was introduced in about 1981-1982.   At the time perforating the target wasn’t desirable as it was thought energy was wasted and a greater likelihood of an innocent person being struck by a round which over penetrated.


There is a greater data base and information sharing now compared to the late 70’s to early 80’s.  I remember when the FBI used ballistic gel testing before adopting the 147 grain 9 mm JHP.   I don’t know if ISP or Winchester used ballistic gel for testing in the late 70’s to early 80’s.

Because a bullet can be effective before the exact second it meets the FBI performance standard.   Their minimum penetration isn't a magic light switch, its a worst case probability standard.

@ITCHY-FINGER

Are you sure the minimum penetration standard is a worst case standard? I read many times someone was shot in the past, the hollow point penetrated much less than what it did in gel. In some cases just a few inches even though it did more than 12" in gel.

I hate to mention the Miami Dade shoot out involving the FBI but it had an effect on future ballistic testing and performance criteria.   One of the Agents was armed with a S&W model 459 and supposedly shot one suspect with a 115 grain JHP Silvertip.   Supposedly this bullet didn’t penetrate deeply enough to inflict an immediate incapacitating injury to the offender.   The ISP had been issuing the W-W 115 grain JHP +P+ for a couple years prior to the Miami FBI shooting.

After chronographing a lot of ammunition over the years I have a hard time blaming the bullet’s performance in this instance.   I believe any failure to stop in the Miami shoot out was because handguns have always been inferior weapons used in emergency situations.   There are reports to this day where individuals on Adrenalin and/or drugs are not incapacitated quickly with firearms.   No one will ever know the actual muzzle velocity of the bullet which failed to penetrate deep enough.   When things go hot Murphy has a propensity to show up.   Tactics, training and experience can play a huge part in the outcome.   Having the best advertised handgun ammunition is not a guarantee to stopping hostilities quickly.   Even if the one bullet had perforated the Offender does not mean the person would have been immediately incapacitated.  

I’ve said this before, I put more faith in awareness, tactics and my ability to effectively use a weapon (hitting the target) than the particular ammunition.   If given a choice I use quality JHP handgun ammunition but a FMJ/RNL has worked if put in the right spot.

The standard intentionally leans toward penetration, so it can justifiably be seen as a "worst case" standard. That is not saying bullets that don't meet the minimum standard can't work, only that you should expect some (or many) failures. The other (and very big) part of that is that bullet designs have come a very long way. We are spoiled today with a lot of very consistently-performing bullets. That is the result of damn near a half-century of experimentation and application of fluid dynamics and rocket science by some very talented engineers. These days, I expect to find the majority of modern hollowpoints fired out of service pistols to be found at or near the skin on the opposite side of the torso, and look a lot like the advertising photos. It was not always that way.
Back before the FBI standards were developed, there were no standards. Nobody agreed on anything, not even what is "good" v. "bad", let alone how to test ammo, or even what test medium was appropriate. Even after ballistic gelatin was developed, we still couldn't even agree on how to use it: is Fackler's 10% going to be the standard, or will we stay with Ragsdale's original 20%? How hot can we heat it? How many shots are adequate? Do we measure temporay cavity or permanent? And what do they translate into as far as wounding, let alone incapacitation?
Once the concept of temporary and permanent stretch cavities was described, everybody was frantically attempting to get rifle cartridge performance out of pistol cartridges (not unlike the current 5.7 hyperbole). This lead to ever-lighter bullets being driven ever-faster. Analagous to backyard-built racing engines, sometimes it works great and you win. Most times it fails, and occasionally it blows up spectacularly. The concept and results were not new: the same lighter/faster concept had been tried with rifle cartridges decades earlier during the wildcatting craze, with the same very inconsistent results.
So two things were at play in the anecdotally-based reputations (good or bad) of older bullet designs: with no standards, there was no metric to separate good from bad designs, thus no focus on consistent performance, and, with an emphasis on small/light/fast and "rifle-like fragmentation", you get even more inconsistent performance.

While the FBI chose to "save face" by blaming the Silvertip instead of acknowledging their agent's poor decisions and tactics, that blame-shifting did have the unintended result of leading to the establishment of standards, which have brought massive advances in pistol (and, to a lessr degree, rifle) bullet designs. The agency was very fortunate in having Urey Patrick in the FTU, instead of one of the modern ass-covering, obstructionist bureaucrats. Despite its publication date of 1989, the HWFE is still completely relevant.
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

IIRC, the Silvertip hit an extremity before hitting the torso of the bad guy.

I remember seeing a gel test where an old hollow point and a more modern one were first fired into bare gel, then gel with heavy clothes in front of it. There was less discrepancy in the penetration between the newer hollow point fired in both the bare and heavily clothed gel compared to the older hollow point.

12" of jell is NOT supposed to be analogous to 12" of flesh. They are saying that a bullet that officially meets the FBI protocol must penetrate at least 12" and not more than 18" OF JELL. And the type of jell is specified, down to it's temp. etc so it can be scientifically repeatable. When I said "worst case" I just meant minimum standard in a worst case where the bullet has to penetrate arms/legs, odd angles, heavy clothing etc. Like saying that for a rifle to be officially called accurate, it needs to put 5 shots into 1MOA or less. Doesnt mean that a 3MOA rifle is useless or doesnt work...it's just a measure someone came up with.  

 

Yep.

And to answer the OP, because that load was generally agreed to be better than whatever else was around at the time. And would still work. Humans haven't evolved much in 30 yrs.

@Rheinmetall792

If you wrote: American humans haven't evolved much in 40 years instead of the last sentence, I would say they are larger now than then.

Definitely dumber....and a bit fatter. But far from immune to 9BPLE.

I read IQs of young children are higher now than 50 years ago. At least before Covid hit.

People are larger outside of fat content.

I wonder if it is possible for a manufacturer to make 147gr XTP rounds at +P+ pressures. I don't recall seeing any 147gr ammo loaded to +P+.

As I think Winchester said: The bullet performed as designed. It was the 115gr one. I don't know whether the old school Winchester or Federal 147gr hollow point existed when that tragedy happened. If they did exist, I wonder if the bad guy would have stopped fighting earlier as they would have penetrated at least 1.5" more. The 115gr stopped 1" before the bad guy's heart. I wish I could bring the deceased LEOs back to life.

There weren’t many bullets in .355 heavier than 125 grain prior to the FBI shooting in Miami.   People had experimented with .357 bullets but many hollow point and soft point  357 bullets had exposed lead.   There was a rumor where Winchester brought their 147 grain JHP and gel to the ISP range to try to gain sales.   The story goes the Winchester reps shot the gel with the 147 grain JHP then ISP shot gel with the 115 grain +P+.   Supposedly there were barrier test comparing the ISP 115 grain +P+ and the 147 grain JHP.   Supposedly the ISP firearms unit were not impressed by the early 147 grain JHP.   The ISP 115 grain +P+ JHP produced more energy than the 147 and since both bullets are the same general construction the 115 grain +P+ penetrated barriers better in the test I conducted.

@VASCAR2

Trivia: The San Diego Police Department used either the early Federal or Winchester 147gr hollow points and were happy with it.

I’m not surprised but I think ISP Firearms section were from an era where they liked high velocity with higher energy.   Might have been a situation where ISP Firearms section was satisfied with their load and saw no need to change.   Many of the staff who had been in the development of the 115 grain +P+ JHP were retired when the ISP adopted the Glock 22/23 with 180 grain JHP in 1999-2000.   The ISP evaluated several different 40 caliber pistols but Glock was chosen primarily for meeting the department criteria and the Glock bid was accepted.   There were several testers from all divisions of the ISP who participated in the evaluation team and individually scored all the submitted manufacturers pistols.   The Glock 23/23 Gen 3 scored high in the evaluation but I don’t know if the actual evaluation scores were released within the department or to the public.

Going to the 180gr JHP in .40 is more than a change in caliber as the 180gr loads were/are slower and probably had less energy than a 165gr or 155gr, though possibly more momentum. I wonder why they picked the 180gr over the others. The 9mm equivalent would be the 147gr (relative to caliber).

Ever hear anything about the longevity of the Gen 3 .40 Glocks? I think the primary reason for the Gen 4 was to improve the .40 models.

What does ISP use these days and are they happy with it?

One of the stated reasons for going to 40 caliber was cheaper training ammo.   The ISP did a lot of training and all qualifications with the duty +P+ 115 grain JHP 9 mm.  Once the switch was made to Glock 22/23 the first duty ammo was Winchester Ranger 180 grain SXT.   Ammunition has switched back and forth over the years between Winchester and Federal for duty ammo.  Practice ammo was 180 grain FMJ FN in either Federal, CCI or Winchester.   CMS changed the procedure on how the ISP could acquire ammunition and quantities.

I wasn’t aware of any discussions as to why 180 grain JHP was issued but the members of the Firearms section had different personnel with their own ideas.   The general consensus was it was easier to train new Cadets how to shoot the Glock compared to the S&W DA/SA.   The Firearms section appreciated the fewer interchangeable parts of the Glock design.   The S&W 5904/6904 needed several parts to be hand fitted like the safety/decocker.  The only issue with Glock to my knowledge was when malfunctions occurred with a tactical light was attached.   Glock traded our early Gen 3 Glock 22/23 for new Glock 22/23 pistols in about 2005.   The Gen 4 22/23 were issued after I retired.   The ISP went to Glock Gen 4 pistols with Safariland ALS holsters and Streamlight TLR weapon lights in about 2015.   I might be off on the year when ISP transitioned to Gen 4 22/23 but this is still the issued pistol.

To my knowledge the 180 40 caliber JHP has been effective on the street.   There have been rumors ISP will transition back to 9 MM but to my knowledge no orders have been placed.   I haven’t heard of any test to select a different brand firearm.

I'm guessing practice ammo (outside of training and qualification) used was standard pressure or +P at most. Something I always wondered is how much faster +P and +P+ wear out a pistol, whether it is the old metal S&Ws or CZ 75, striker fired polymer pistols, 1911s, etc. Another determining factor how fast a non-polymer pistol wears out is whether the frame is aluminum or steel.

My opinion on DA/SA and striker fire is the practice put in to become skilled with it is more important than which design it is. I think Glock may offer an optional thumb safety in the future. Gun guru Mas Ayoob has mentioned how many seconds it takes on average for a bad guy to get off a shot if he gets the officer's gun away from the officer. It is much longer on pistols that have thumb safeties. Glock mentioning this if they make pistols with optional thumb safeties is probably all they need to do to sell a huge amount of new generation models.

It is surprising the 5904/6904 had parts that required handfitting. S&W was the only manufacturer (I think) of those guns. Maybe other manufacturers made parts for S&W?

@Landric

Those +P+ loads must have been rough on the aluminum framed 92s.

The only 9 MM ammunition I shot while employed with ISP was Winchester 115 grain JPH +P+ except for initial Academy firearms training.   ISP had reloading machines and we shot reloaded 9 MM ammo except for our mandatory qualification shoot where we shot duty ammo.  We had a night shoot where we shot earlier lots of 115 grain JHP +P+ before a flash retardant powder was used.

The ISP firearms section regularly replaced recoil springs on the 439 and later 5904/6904.   The Tactical teams shot a lot of ammo compared to the rest of the sworn but the 5904/6904 held up surprisingly well.    I don’t remember any parts failures on any S&W 2nd or 3rd gen pistols issued to Troops I knew.   The safety decocker would fail and a new safety needed to be fitted to where it decocked the hammer properly.   I heard there were three Gen 3 frames that cracked on Tactical team guns but they had been shot a lot ( 20,000 rounds+).   I also heard there were occasional extractors replaced on Gen 3 pistols.   Supposedly a couple of Tactical team guys replaced the barrel in their pistol because accuracy had deteriorated.  There were about 2,000 sworn ISP when the S&W 2nd and 3rd generation pistols were issued.  

We only shot the duty ammo at yearly qualification. Mostly we used standard pressure 115 grain ball. Then, a couple of years before the switch to the 40, the PD got a deal on Winchester 124 grain NATO. That stuff we shot in volume and had some wear issues, but the guns were at the end of their lives anyway and just got replaced.

When I started on a So. Ca. Sheriffs Dept. back in 1974, we were issued S&W 39's and the issued

ammo was Win. 9mm SP. I don't think +P was even a thing then. FBI instructors did the academy

firearms training and I remember them bringing out a big block of Duxseal to show how different

bullet/ calibers performed. The ammo for quals. was reloaded stuff the range master and some

jail workers put together. That was until a round blew a 39 apart and permanently injured one deputy.

The 39's were not too bad but some would get cracked frames where the slide lock passed through

the frame. Mine did that during the academy but it was not new when issued to me.

I have some old gun catalogs stowed away that should have descriptions  of available ammo from that

time period. Will get back with what I find.

I have an old Speer reloading manual from around 1980.  Speer had loaded ammunition with a 100 grain JHP and a round nose 125 grain soft point.  The Speer manual also had load data for an 88 grain Speer JHP.  I have a Lyman manual from 1978 and it has data for a 115 grain JHP.   I know Sierra had 9 MM JHP bullets in the late 70’s because a Friend has several old Sierra reloading manuals.   Federal and Sierra manufactured 95 grain JSP in the late 70’s to early 80’s which are pictured above.  

The 439 pistols were an improvement over the 39/39-2 and the 59/459 were influential in the adoption of the high capacity 9 mm pistols in LE.

*Self deleted