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Posted: 10/2/2023 9:39:06 AM EDT
Hey guys. I’ve never been able to find the answer to this question and it has recently gotten me diving down the rabbit hole.
Shortly after I graduated from highschool (in 2015), I bought myself a Winchester Model 70 ultimate shadow in 30-06. I hated the look of that stock so I immediately swapped it out, put my scope on and went to the range. I probably have put a total of 20 rounds through it, life has interfered with shooting a little bit. Now for the twist - when i shot the rifle, i noticed the ejected brass looked a little strange, and i couldn’t quite put my finger on what it was. The case walls were straighter, the shoulder a sharper angle, etc, etc. If you know where i’m going with this, i ultimately found out that my rifle had an ackley improved chamber. I was originally a little upset but ive grown to sort-of like the idea of this rifle even though I havent shot it a ton. One day i will get into reloading and this seems like a good round to play with (though the AI in 30-06 doesnt give you the same gains as it would in 22-250, 6.5x55, .257 roberts, etc). Was this common in this era of manufacture of Model 70s in 30-06? I found it strange that i thought i bought a normal 30-06 and there was 0 indication on the barrel or anything that my rifle had an AI chamber. And yes, this was a NIB rifle from Winchester. Only pic I have of it right now is below. I am itching to shoot it again when i get back from overseas  Attached FileHere’s an AI 30-06 next to a standard one (not my pic)  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:26:14 PM EDT
[#1]
I only see .280 Ackley Improved in SAAMI .
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:41:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BuckeyeRifleman]
[#2]
If you don’t reload, you can shoot standard 30-06 in the rifle without issue. That’s the beauty of AI’ed rifles.
It was probably done by a gunsmith after the factory. Are you sure you bought it NIB? I’ve never seen an AI’ed rifle from the factory other than the 280 AI. I’d keep it. You can shoot factory ammo in the meantime and when you start reloading you can get pretty darn close to 300 win mag with the AI. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 2:48:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman: If you don’t reload, you can shoot standard 30-06 in the rifle without issue. That’s the beauty of AI’ed rifles. It was probably done by a gunsmith after the factory. Are you sure you bought it NIB? I’ve never seen an AI’ed rifle from the factory other than the 280 AI. I’d keep it. You can shoot factory ammo in the meantime and when you start reloading you can get pretty darn close to 300 win mag with the AI. It was BNIB when i bought it, which shocked me when i saw the brass. And yep, I'm aware about ability to shoot the factory ammo. |
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Posted: 10/2/2023 3:06:56 PM EDT
[#4]
I think you now understand my confusion haha
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Posted: 10/2/2023 4:19:37 PM EDT
[#5]
How is the barrel marked?
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Posted: 10/2/2023 5:20:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanSheepDog: I think you now understand my confusion haha Lol indeed! That is odd. I’d reach out to Winchester maybe? I’d be curious what they say. |
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Posted: 10/3/2023 4:05:14 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bgenlvtex: How is the barrel marked? IIRC, just 30-06. Im in Korea and cant look at it right now |
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Posted: 10/3/2023 6:52:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Don’t sell the.30/06 AI short. You might be surprised by the gains with heavier bullets. And today’s High BC bullets just a little gain can be an improvement. The other option is to get rebored to .338/06 AI it seems to show pretty promising results. From what I have read.
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Posted: 10/3/2023 7:20:53 AM EDT
[#9]
I dont intend to get rid of it. I havent read Ackley’s books but it was my understanding that improved cartridges based the 30-06 / 30-03 case generally see more performance gain with the AI version the smaller the bullet diameter because theres more powder capacity. The .280 specifically because the shoulder of the .280 was already pushed forward to prevent it chambering in a .270.
That being said w/ 180gr loads, the data that nosler publishes (which im sure is relatively conservative) do seem to pack quite a punch for 30-06 AI. You best believe I’ve been comparing their 30-06 AI and .300 WM data. Assuming i become a proficient reloader and can identify pressure signs and develop a load, it should be a pretty neat and versatile gun. Again, just have never seen anything like it before. Didnt even know what an Ackley chamber was until i acquired this rifle and started digging on the internet to see what was wrong with my rifle lol. |
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Posted: 10/4/2023 8:23:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanSheepDog: I dont intend to get rid of it. I havent read Ackley’s books but it was my understanding that improved cartridges based the 30-06 / 30-03 case generally see more performance gain with the AI version the smaller the bullet diameter because theres more powder capacity. The .280 specifically because the shoulder of the .280 was already pushed forward to prevent it chambering in a .270. That being said w/ 180gr loads, the data that nosler publishes (which im sure is relatively conservative) do seem to pack quite a punch for 30-06 AI. You best believe I’ve been comparing their 30-06 AI and .300 WM data. Assuming i become a proficient reloader and can identify pressure signs and develop a load, it should be a pretty neat and versatile gun. Again, just have never seen anything like it before. Didnt even know what an Ackley chamber was until i acquired this rifle and started digging on the internet to see what was wrong with my rifle lol. Now I’m wondering if someone did a custom shop order and received a standard 06 instead of a 06 AI? |
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Posted: 10/4/2023 8:48:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sparkyD: Now I’m wondering if someone did a custom shop order and received a standard 06 instead of a 06 AI? Ill ask my Dad if we still have the box for it so i can show how it is marked. I forget if we got rid of it or not |
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Posted: 10/5/2023 7:31:20 AM EDT
[#12]
As I suspected, we do indeed still have the box. My Dad will be away from the house for a few days but will send me a picture of the box when he gets back. As I mentioned, I am predicting it just says "30-06"
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Posted: 10/5/2023 8:32:19 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 10/7/2023 11:42:23 PM EDT
[#14]
That's super interesting, makes you wonder about the chain of events that occurred to get that gun in your hands. I'd for sure make lemonade out of those lemons though, -06 is a favorite caliber of mine, and having just a little more HP out of it would be sweet. Reload and go knock some critters down with it.
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Posted: 10/8/2023 12:34:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AmericanSheepDog]
[#15]
30-06 is still one of the best, and i intend to keep and shoot it. Just wanted to see if i have an extreme oddball like i was suspecting or if there were others lol
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Posted: 10/14/2023 10:14:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Before this drops into the archive, i wanted to see if anyone else had some thoughts. Thanks.
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Posted: 10/17/2023 9:45:47 AM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By AmericanSheepDog: Was this common in this era of manufacture of Model 70s in 30-06? I found it strange that i thought i bought a normal 30-06 and there was 0 indication on the barrel or anything that my rifle had an AI chamber. And yes, this was a NIB rifle from Winchester. Just shoot it. The 30-06 Ackley is an awesome caliber. |
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Posted: 10/17/2023 9:45:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Hoser]
[#18]
...
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Posted: 10/20/2023 11:46:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheLowlyEngineer]
[#19]
I'm 99.9% certain that rifle did not leave the factory as an AI. Winchester has gone bankrupt and moved production multiple times in the last 20 years so I'm unsure what may or may not have been available from the custom shop. However, rarely, if ever, do the big players allow/offer non SAAMI cartridges to be chambered. It's a lawyer thing. It's the same reason twist rates in factory rifles have sucked for years.
I'd give a super close look at that barrel to see if AI is stamped on it somewhere. Either after the 30-06 or up near the receiver, maybe even under the stock. If not, it's a bit scary a gunsmith would fail to note the change. I'm betting someone punched the factory barrel, stuck it back in the original box, and and it was sold/traded back to a dealer as NIB. I'd run the serial# to see when it was manufactured. My guess is 01/2014. Regardless, truly an unexpected surprise. |
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Posted: 10/20/2023 3:18:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheLowlyEngineer: I'm 99.9% certain that rifle did not leave the factory as an AI. Winchester has gone bankrupt and moved production multiple times in the last 20 years so I'm unsure what may or may not have been available from the custom shop. However, rarely, if ever, do the big players allow/offer non SAAMI cartridges to be chambered. It's a lawyer thing. It's the same reason twist rates in factory rifles have sucked for years. I'd give a super close look at that barrel to see if AI is stamped on it somewhere. Either after the 30-06 or up near the receiver, maybe even under the stock. If not, it's a bit scary a gunsmith would fail to note the change. I'm betting someone punched the factory barrel, stuck it back in the original box, and and it was sold/traded back to a dealer as NIB. I'd run the serial# to see when it was manufactured. My guess is 01/2014. Regardless, truly an unexpected surprise. I agree. I figure it was a custom shop order that found its way into a New Box. And someone was probably disappointed when they got a standard 06 from the CS. But I would play with it anyway. But if you feel the need you might have a gunsmith check it out before you reload for it. So AI chambers were not set back properly and the head space is a little longer than it should be. |
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Posted: 10/20/2023 3:29:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sparkyD: I agree. I figure it was a custom shop order that found its way into a New Box. And someone was probably disappointed when they got a standard 06 from the CS. But I would play with it anyway. But if you feel the need you might have a gunsmith check it out before you reload for it. So AI chambers were not set back properly and the head space is a little longer than it should be. I’m not very familiar with the Winchester custom shop but for it to have been made, not marked, misboxed, and then find its way into normal production pipeline seems rather unlikely to me. I guess anything is possible but I’d think someone hand reaming the chamber and then selling it off is more likely. I lost track of the new in box guns I’ve dealt with that weren’t new in the box. If it did somehow come out of Winchester that way I have no idea how that string of events came to be. |
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Posted: 10/22/2023 8:58:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Well thanks for the input everyone.
Ill take a look at it when I get back to the US. Definitely a strange situation. I guess i will have a gunsmith check to see that the chamber was properly set back. I did fire 1-2 boxes worth of 165gr superformance through it, so i have 20-40 fireformed hornady cases, assuming the headspace is correct! As i recollect, there are no AI markings on it. Does make you wonder that if it were something else and if I fired it and it blew up in my face, how bad it couldve been. |
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USA
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Posted: 10/22/2023 8:57:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Some time ago I ran across a posting or an article that at the factory they had a few 06AI barrels and they were inadvertantly installed right besides the o6 springfield barrel. If I remember correctly it was a very small number built and at that time winchester was attempting to get them back. That being said i think it was NIB as stated and it is in deed a collectors item for sure.
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Posted: 3/8/2024 6:01:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AmericanSheepDog]
[#24]
Hi friends… I recently returned from my rotation to Korea and wanted to revisit this topic.
Below are pictures of my rifle. There are no markings to indicate that it has an Ackley Improved chamber. I checked the entire barrel. I will be emailing Winchester, but wanted to fan the fire and get your guys’ commentary lol. Again, if you look at the pictures above, I purchased this rifle “new” from a gun store. When purchased, the rifle had every indication of being new. It was in a sealed box, etc etc. I’m not ruling out that it may have been tinkered with, but there was certainly no indication that the rifle was not “new” when purchased. Due to the irregularity of this situation, I am concerned / want to check if the barrel was properly set back and or headspaced properly. Again, I fired probably 20 rounds out of it before I truly realized what was going on. This was also before I even knew what an Ackley Improved chamber was (I was 18, and that was nearly 10 years ago). It shot “fine” but I’m not convinced that continuing to shoot it right now would be a great idea without further investigation. The situation is further complicated by the fact that there is no SAAMI spec for 30-06 AI. I have read that a properly done 30-06 AI should NOT close on a regular 30-06 “GO” gauge. Do you guys agree? I’m thinking that testing that might be my first step.  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 3/8/2024 8:48:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Here’s a section of the registration paperwork showing that it was purported to be “new”
 Attached File Attached FileHere’s a couple of my spent casings next to an unfired one from the same box.  Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:56:59 PM EDT
[#26]
I love the AI cartridges: I have 3 of them myself. A 35 Whelen AI, a 400 Whelen AI, and a 30-06 AI. All of them are exceptionally accurate.
You do not need to worry about the headspace on your rifle given the appearance of your fired brass. Firing standard 30-06 loadings will give you brass that is perfectly formed to your specific chamber. Properly cared for you'll get at least 10 loadings (or more) out of each piece of brass. I anneal case necks after 4 or 5 firings. You will get best results if you neck size only; my favorite dies are the Hornady neck sizing dies, but they are a tad bit more expensive than most other brands. A great powder for the 30-06 AI is IMR 4064. I've had good luck with it towards the higher end of the max load spectrum. Work up slowly and look for signs of pressure. With safe handloads you can walk up closely to factory 300 H&H velocities, but of course that cartridge can be loaded to higher pressures too. I bet someone returned that rifle after purchase and that's how it was resold through Outdoor Sportsman; I think you came out quite well on the deal. |
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Posted: 3/8/2024 11:50:17 PM EDT
[#27]
One way or another OP, that is a super cool rifle. I'd take it off your hands if you aren't happy with it.
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Posted: 3/9/2024 12:08:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Sinister]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman: One way or another OP, that is a super cool rifle. I'd take it off your hands if you aren't happy with it. That Ackley Improved reaming will get him a little closer to 300 Win Mag performance. |
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Posted: 3/9/2024 9:56:48 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blindeye: I love the AI cartridges: I have 3 of them myself. A 35 Whelen AI, a 400 Whelen AI, and a 30-06 AI. All of them are exceptionally accurate. You do not need to worry about the headspace on your rifle given the appearance of your fired brass. Firing standard 30-06 loadings will give you brass that is perfectly formed to your specific chamber. Properly cared for you'll get at least 10 loadings (or more) out of each piece of brass. I anneal case necks after 4 or 5 firings. You will get best results if you neck size only; my favorite dies are the Hornady neck sizing dies, but they are a tad bit more expensive than most other brands. A great powder for the 30-06 AI is IMR 4064. I've had good luck with it towards the higher end of the max load spectrum. Work up slowly and look for signs of pressure. With safe handloads you can walk up closely to factory 300 H&H velocities, but of course that cartridge can be loaded to higher pressures too. I bet someone returned that rifle after purchase and that's how it was resold through Outdoor Sportsman; I think you came out quite well on the deal. That’s good news on the headspace. Regarding how it happened, I’m waiting for a response from Winchester, but note that the rifle is denoted as new on the DROS form. Strange how the rifle ended up with me one way or the other. |
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Posted: 3/9/2024 9:59:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister: Hellz yes. That Ackley Improved reaming will get him a little closer to 300 Win Mag performance. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister: Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman: One way or another OP, that is a super cool rifle. I'd take it off your hands if you aren't happy with it. That Ackley Improved reaming will get him a little closer to 300 Win Mag performance. Assuming everything is “ok” with it, i intend to keep and shoot it. I don’t reload yet, but this rifle would probably be the first one I’d learn how to reload for. Also, I appreciate the compliment. I picked the stock because I hated the stock that came on the ultimate shadow. I glass bedded the recoil lug on this stock, and lapped my rings too. |
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Posted: 5/15/2024 2:39:51 PM EDT
[#31]
What I find most fascinating is that, of all of the people on this forum, you are the one person out of everyone that ended up with this specific mystery gun.
That's fate, right there. |
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Posted: 5/15/2024 8:55:19 PM EDT
[#32]
It is a strange situation for sure
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USA
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Posted: 5/15/2024 9:38:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman: If you don’t reload, you can shoot standard 30-06 in the rifle without issue. That’s the beauty of AI’ed rifles. It was probably done by a gunsmith after the factory. Are you sure you bought it NIB? I’ve never seen an AI’ed rifle from the factory other than the 280 AI. I’d keep it. You can shoot factory ammo in the meantime and when you start reloading you can get pretty darn close to 300 win mag with the AI. More than one shop has decided to sell a shiny looking gun as NIB because they got it with the box. My bet is someone had a gunsmith run an Ackley reamer to open it up and maybe never used it or needed money and sold it. I recently had a shop try to convince me their Ruger No3 NOS rifle came with factory Uncle Mike’s sling studs in it.  Looking at the box endflap, the one tag says Outdoor Sportsman. Is that the FFL you bought it from? It sounds like a chain retail place name and that’s not the kind of place that tends to do shenanigans. and yet the blue tape log type number has me thinking smaller shop inventory method. |
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Posted: 5/15/2024 11:34:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Outdoor Sportsman was the local shop i bought it, yes
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USA
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Posted: 5/16/2024 4:46:05 PM EDT
[#35]
Did you ever call Winchester and ask?
At this point all I’d ask they to do is add Ackley Improved to the barrel caliber marking to correct it. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 5:16:55 PM EDT
[#36]
I have a M70 CRF 30-06 take off barrel if you are interested. I built a Palma rifle off the action and this thing has been following me around for almost 30 years. Honestly, the AI is pretty awesome. Just get some AI dies, a simple press and some other reloading stuff. About as close to 300WM you can get in a non-belted ctg.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 7:25:53 PM EDT
[#37]
The Ackley Improved is a dang good cartridge. But you need to reload to tap its full potential. I didn’t know it came factory chambered. I have Ackley’s book. He forgot more than I will ever know about rifles. I grew up on him, Carmichael, O’Connor, Brister, and Wooters. Plus a few others.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 9:21:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: Did you ever call Winchester and ask? At this point all I’d ask they to do is add Ackley Improved to the barrel caliber marking to correct it. I sent an email |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:09:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Emails can easily be ignored.
I would call. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:07:42 PM EDT
[#40]
So i am coming to find out. However, i honestly doubt whoever i call is going to have any clue lol
Ill give it a shot i suppose |
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Posted: 5/17/2024 8:02:41 AM EDT
[#41]
It might just be the picture, but those fired cases seem a bit off. Have you measured them to be sure this is an A.I. chamber and not just a mis-cut chamber? Maybe find a gunsmith to cast the chamber and verify what you have for sure before sinking money into reloading for it.
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USA
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Posted: 5/28/2024 9:13:03 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dartmark: Some time ago I ran across a posting or an article that at the factory they had a few 06AI barrels and they were inadvertantly installed right besides the o6 springfield barrel. If I remember correctly it was a very small number built and at that time winchester was attempting to get them back. That being said i think it was NIB as stated and it is in deed a collectors item for sure. Now this maoes it even more interesting. |
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Posted: 5/29/2024 8:26:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grumple: Now this makes it even more interesting. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/29/2024 9:41:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanSheepDog:... I have read that a properly done 30-06 AI should NOT close on a regular 30-06 “GO” gauge. Do you guys agree? I’m thinking that testing that might be my first step... The concept of "Improved" cartridges is that you just run a reamer in and remove material. So the original cartridge will still fit and so will the original cartridge gauges. I'm also willing to learn that you have a new factory gun but I'll play the odds and say you got sold a used gun as a new gun. The reason being; a) There is no such thing as a sealed gun box. Serial numbers have to be checked at the distributor and the dealer. So even if the factory put a seal on it, the distributor would have cut it open before shipping to the dealer. b) The barrel is not marked as an 30-06 AI. c) The box is not marked as an 30-06 AI. It could be a BIG factory mix up but unless there is some factory documentation about this, it's probably all lost to history. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/29/2024 11:01:18 PM EDT
[#45]
You don’t gain much……but your brass will last a loooong time
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Posted: 5/31/2024 7:31:08 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cschaeff: The concept of "Improved" cartridges is that you just run a reamer in and remove material. So the original cartridge will still fit and so will the original cartridge gauges. I'm also willing to learn that you have a new factory gun but I'll play the odds and say you got sold a used gun as a new gun. The reason being; a) There is no such thing as a sealed gun box. Serial numbers have to be checked at the distributor and the dealer. So even if the factory put a seal on it, the distributor would have cut it open before shipping to the dealer. b) The barrel is not marked as an 30-06 AI. c) The box is not marked as an 30-06 AI. It could be a BIG factory mix up but unless there is some factory documentation about this, it's probably all lost to history. Based on what i have read, your first sentence is assuming that the barrel was properly set back (if required) after being reamed out. If not, there is excess headspace. The problem is, i have no idea since i dont know what reamer was used and who did it. |
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