Yeah look I'd like to think the people in charge of our monetary system were closer to that than just a bunch of scheming little shits stacking working their own long game, but if that were true they wouldn't have kept this Titanic of a system floating for 110 years.

So, fuck it. I do what I want. I look at rocks for a living. Does that pay good? Well, not really, its probably the lowest paying STEM degree that is in the category of "applied sciences". Will I ever be a millionare? Depends, but by the time I reach retirement age there will be paycheck to paycheck journeyman tradies that are "millionares" for a few hours every month between the time their check deposits in and their rent drafts out, so probably.

Same!

LOL at teaches. All the teachers I know are broke as hell.

I do agree about (some) physicians. I know a couple of them who make 300k-450k and have major debt with little assets. Blows my mind!

EDIT:

Also this….

I think I need to start doing the written grocery list thing.

I went to Wegman's yesterday and forgot avocados again.

Regardless of the finance advice Dave is right about being debt free

The feeling of having 0 payments is hard to put into words. The grass really does feel different

Regardless of the finance advice Dave is right about being debt free

The feeling of having 0 payments is hard to put into words. The grass really does feel different

Door dash that shit brah.

Even before covid, all the grocery stores around here were starting with their online ordering.  We were using that just to save time.  Do all your grocery shopping from the couch.  Add everything to your cart, apply coupons, click submit.  Then drive up a few hours later and grab all your shit in the parking lot.

You're in a good spot.

Once the mortgage is done, your investment potential goes wayyyyyyyyy up.

My wife wants to move, and I want to pay cash for our next place.

Getting those 2 things in alignment in this market isn't tricky, but it takes time.

I'm fine burning up an hour everyday in my car going to work and back.

In the mean time, our investment capability is 75% of our take-home pay.

If I only put 25% of take-home into brokerage accounts, maxed out our retirement investments, and continued our Roth Conversions every year until retirement, the ROI is amazing.

You’ll never catch up to the guy who didn’t pay off his sub 5% mortgage. Ever. It’s just math.

Time in market.

Its not a dave ramsey thread until spidey turns it into a pay off the mortage early or not debate.  Did it really take 14 pages this time?

I’m skeptical that I’ll ever see sub-5% rates again. Hopefully I do so I can get in that boat, but I don’t think I will.

We will absolutely see sub 5% rates again.  They will never let a crisis go to waste.

Meh. Debt free isn’t the goal. Increase net worth is the goal. How you get there is up to you.  It’s just math.

You can’t buy time.  Ramsey has his audience. Building wealth is not his audience.

Contentment is a thing.

Knowing I'll only start pulling out of brokerage accounts in the next 15 or 20 years when I want to is priceless.

I'm happy with my position.  It only improves week after week after week.

You’re not wrong.

Can Dave recommend someone to get out of my timeshare, one of his “trusted partners” for example?

Oh, that’s right.  Crook.

Well I'm mid career and I'm sitting at 3/4 million value in my retirement and home.  Small house in rural Missouri on 18 acres and 10% saved on every paycheck for 20 years with what ever company % match.  

When my grandparents pass away I will technically an instant Millionaire.  Doesn't take much farm land to become a millionaire on paper.  One family farm has been in family 120ish years,  the other side of the family  the home place was bought when Grandpa got back from WWII.  Only worth real money if I sell it.  Gov says it's worth 2.5 million but cash rent is only 1% of value.... purely on return it doesn't make any sense, except it's paid for.

The only millionaire teachers I know are married to engineers.  Or have several side hustle businesses.  Especially summer seasonal businesses.

Dave Ramsey's target audience is not high end financial wizards.  The vast majority of people are bad at money management and his philosophy is aimed at them.  No debt, no compromise, because they will go down the debt slippery slope fast.  Pay off smallest debt first, then 2nd....and snowball the previous payments into each sequentially larger debt.  I believe he says pay house loan off last.  He doesn't advocate consolidating debt or using HELOC to help pay debt because it's just transferring debt.  Those that are good with math can easily see there a potential to decrease interest rates 20% and save 10s of thousands of dollars by consolidating in lower rate loans.   Most people would just see the new lowered monthly payments and spend more until they are living paycheck to paycheck again.

The idea of investing extra money in ways that makes a higher rate of return than your mortgage rate makes sense mathematically.  Having no debt is partially, largely, about emotion and feelings.  The feeling of a paid off house and no debt, out ways the potential financial gains of letting a mortgage last it's maximum contractual life and investing the difference.

Way too late.

Your last paragraph is what I cannot understand. I will never understand it because there is no reason behind it. Only feelings.

Mixing feelings and money is a bad idea.  I simply cannot understand why people choose less money. “I don’t want more money”. I cannot understand that. Never will. I like more money. More money makes me feel good.

Also my wife is a teacher, moved into admin, she’s a millionaire outright. Retired at 51.  Becoming a millionaire is very simple. Spend less than you make.

And that is why you're out of touch. There's more to life than money. Your advice is generally good and generally should be something all parents teach their kids but it is not universal.

So is your wife a teacher or an administrator?

He’s talking about Walter White, who was a high school chemistry teacher.

She could walk into any classroom today and teach. She worked her way up, teaching for 10 years in classroom. She has all the certs to be a principal or super. She’s retired.

Bought a house at 27 and paid it off at 35. No regrets.

Congrats.

There are multiple paths to wealth.  What confuses me about "catching" the next person is we're all going to end up in the same place.

Warren Buffet's old business partner occupies 24 square feet into eternity now.
The same goes for Steve Jobs.

Who is your next target to surpass in cash holdings?  Warren Buffet would look at your position and ask why are you paying a percentage to a bank to use your money?  He doesn't care about cost of capital.  One of the world's richest people still owns the same 6500sf house in Omaha.

It occupies a miniscule amount of his net worth.

It isn't a race to catch the next person.

There are circumstances that would screw the guy who has the mortgage that would suck a lot less for someone that doesn't have one.

If the person that doesn't have a mortgage still saved more than enough to be comfy, maybe will have 2 pensions as well, then, this is GD: get both.

You can be debt free and save a ton of money.  They're not mutually exclusive, and, to be honest, if you care so much that others don't want to leverage debt into more investments in the markets, well, you may be a little too fixated on the money to ever enjoy it.  

No, the goal is complete financial independence/freedom.  

It's not a race.

I don't have to "catch" anyone else.

I've got well over a million saved so far, two pensions, will have health insurance when I retire early AND my house is paid off.  

Unlike you, I'll probably be happy with what I have instead of spending my time worrying about "catching" the people who have more......

You can get a 10 Year MYGA (multi year guaranteed annuity) at 5.65% from an "A" rated (AM Best) company (Oceanview) with 10% yearly withdrawls...

I'm a 5 time engineer degree earner.  I understand and feel emotions but definitely not like "most" people.  I'm probably on some learning/developmental spectrum.

Feelings and emotions are what drives most people.  It's how advertisement commercials work.  It's why keeping up with the Joneses is a thing.  It's why fads in products and services grow and fade away.  It's why most people are bad with money and conducting a cost/ benefits analysis before buying a product.  If you asked just about anyone, they would say they want more money.  But given the choice of more money later or instant gratification now, they will spend the money on gratification now.

"survey found 53 percent of Americans say they rarely or never think about the “far future,” or something that might happen 30 years from today. Twenty-one percent report imagining this future less than once a year, while the largest group of respondents, 32 percent, say it never crosses their mind at all."  https://slate.com/technology/2017/04/why-people-are-so-bad-at-thinking-about-the-future.html

Dave Ramsey's target audience is the majority.

Okay so she was an administrator.

And what did you do?

If someone tells people that they wouldn't take a billion dollar interest-free loan, expect people who actually understand to be skeptical of their other claims. And it's a perfect example of why Dave is often wrong.

Math vs feels. Every time. And Dave has figured out a way to monetize the feels side. Good for him.

spidey07 has the patience of a saint.  

So do we.

Show me the banker who actually made the offer.

Dave's people don't do thought exercises? Dave did. Maybe that explains a few things.

If you are a person who is drowning in debt and can't scrap up $1000 (which is a sizable portion of the population) for an emergency then you need Dave Ramsey in your life. If that not you and you want to be wealthy, ignore everything Dave says. I have a friend who has found Dave Ramsey and thinks he is the all knowing financial guru who will make her wealthy. I told her to use Dave Ramsey for the first three baby steps and ignore the rest of his advice.

Lack of thought, no financial education, impulse problems. The list goes on. Dave Ramsey is an addiction specialist and lifestyle coach. People are addicted to spending money while living a lifestyle on credit. He isn't for people who don't overspend, can arbitrage their money, and plan/save effectively for the future.

Honestly, if you follow the DR advice you would be OK in life. You wouldn't be poorly off, you just wouldn't be very optimized either. People here, on a board for a hobby that eats thousands of dollars, discussing financial schemes and savings rates are NOT a key DR demographic. They are the folks that go to the bar and throw a $100 tab on a credit card with rent to own furniture while buying a luxury car on a 96 month plan @11% with rolled in negative equity from their trade in.

People make a lot of choices resulting in less money, because money is not the primary drive in everyone.

Some decide they want kids, and that results in less money.
Some say F it, Mom home with the kids beats a second paycheck.
Some will spend as long as possible flying a high performance jet fighter and dread the day they will be stuck flying commercial for more money.
Medicine is full of people that could be making more with an Ivy League econ degree or MBA.
Universities are full of guys with Ph.D.s in Engineering, Physics, Biochem, etc. who could probably have a much better paying career but they want a shitload of expensive toys to do research with collaborating with a ton of peers, doctoral candidates, and post-docs.  
There are surgeons getting half pay in the military for reasons instead of making twice as much in the civilian world.
Some people don’t like fucking people over for money and choose more tolerable positions.
There’s just a wide variety of people whose primary drive is not entirely money based.

A lot of people are awful at assessing risk. Ramsey is good for those people.

Good morning everyone. I managed to make it home with both of these items and didn't need a list.

Attached File

Yep.

1 Timothy 6:10

"For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."

Some take that verse to heart.

I disagree. I've been a Ramsey guy since high school with my first hourly job after watching family go bankrupt and decided I'd never, ever fucking do that. And then joining the Navy and watching the tards finance their way to slavery for bullshit that 20 years later I have to chuckle on how worthless that shit was (big screen TV's, Mustang GT's, Z71 pickups). I say that because it's easier to watch the behavior of your brothers in the .mil vs your neighbors because you live with these guys and know everything about them. They can't hide shit through polished social media accounts like people do now. Was a great education for me which made me Ramsey even harder.
Spent my entire life debt free other than 1 car I paid off in 6 months and a house. What that has done is free me up to take big risks, which has paid off far more than the guys worried about a few percentage points in arbitrage from their mortgage to stock market returns.
A guy's gotta ask himself what crazy business would he start if it truly didn't matter if it failed or not because it wouldn't put him out on the street. Math this and math that... blah blah blah... starting a business would never happen if you rely on just math.
Just my 2 cents, from a 1.6 gpa dork who started a little welding shop after getting out of the Navy and now lives in the old bank presidents house and had a cool couple of million in properties around town before the age of 40. I've made a couple 6 figure mistakes and getting started was rather slim at times - no way I would've made it if I was in a bunch of personal debt - actually never would have even started.
Based on that, I believe those who dismiss "feelz" as a way to financial success could be missing out. Talking to other business owners and listening to speakers, businesses get started because it just felt right. There was no guaranteed "math" that made people do it. Math can't assume you'll find the customers and keep them. The math says to invest in the market with a historical return of 7-10%.
Nothing wrong with that, there are many paths to financial success and the most important thing on any path is discipline - making a plan and sticking with it even if you get bored with it and try not to get distracted.
But those who are very strong on either side of thought are both right, and wrong. Feelz is pretty damn important. If Ramsey was taught in HS and more kids managed to stay debt free starting at a young age - how many more mid 20's - 30's would start businesses? Instead we have the idiots so wrapped up in looking good on instagram with 40k weddings, mountains of student debt, trying to start a family and buy a house with all that other debt that they'll never leave their safe job until they're in their 50's and finally getting above water - and by then they'll be saying it's too late/they're too old to ever try that business idea they had.

I have nothing against teachers, but California's in debt partly because there are more retired civil servants drawing pensions than there is tax revenue to cover them.
I moved out of California because the cost of living was high, and quality of life was ridiculously low compared to AZ at the time.
I bought my house just before COVID happened and I plan on paying it off within the next 5 years (or sooner).
I have savings, and yes, I should be using it to pay down my home but for now I'd rather have it in reserve given the volatile job market.
If Biden wins in November, we'll need to take a hard look at our retirement plan as I'm sure there will be more market crashes and jobs that only go to DEI candidates.

I think many don’t understand why I post financial stuff so much. It’s not a love of money. It’s being smart with money and how to manage it long term for one simple reason.  Financial security. It’s also talking to my younger self who wasn’t good with money. Now playing catch-up. I can’t buy time.

Once you shift gears into building wealth, reducing taxes, etc. your money outlook changes.  It transforms into “how can I make my money make more for me, and not be taxed to death”.

Not wealthy. Still working.  But very financially secure. If they fired me today I’d say “I’ll be fine”.

Lol.

If you wanna live on just above min wage, hey, that’s your choice.

Let's say for your "millionaire" retirement, you have:
1. $350K house paid off.
2. $600K retirement / 401K investments
3. Average Social security ($22,500 a year or so)
4. $50K worth of cars and other personal property.

If you take out a very conservative 3.5% from your retirement account, that's $21K A year. So $43,500 a year take home, or $3,600 a month with an average SS. You can probably get by, in most of the US on that. I would consider that the absolute minimum. And there's not a lot of flex for any issues that arise.

Retiring on a million net worth is not what it once was.

You act like people who were good with money when young and don't need to catch-up are dumb for getting their mortgage paid off.

You're the opposite extreme from Dave, and, like him, ignore a whole lot to focus like a laser beam on your schtick.

Now he just needs to find a way to sell that strategy to the masses and make hundreds of millions of $$$.

Fuck Dave Ramsey and most of us unhinged acolyters. I love my points on CC, love my 3%mortgage, and understand the construct of finance, economics, and accounting. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and if you talk to one of his acolytes there is only the Dave way.  Dave is not a financial teacher or adviser, he is a behaviour modification coach.

those numbers are easily surpassed.  My wife and I had retirement funds in place 25 years ahead of retirement, and our cash position post mortgage was about 80% of our home's value.

How much does $24,000 a year into a brokerage account turn into over 20 years?  A meager 1.4 mil.  That's with a starting point of $0.
How much better does a Traditional IRA become when it is fully converted to a Roth IRA?  There's a 30% raise.  Keep dumping in $7500 a year, converting $30-50k a year from Traditional into a Roth, keep dumping, keep converting, year after year after year after year after year.

But wait, it's impossible to math your way into wealth.

And all that assumes zero matching from employers too.

I'm only getting a 10% match