God's sacrifice

Everyone contends that God and Jesus made a great sacrifice by allowing his son/himself to be killed on earth, but I don't get it.

Now, follow with me, this was just a random thought I had with Easter and everything so maybe I missed something.

God sent his son to die, he was killed, buried and rose from the dead where he "sits at the right hand of the father." So, Jesus is with his father now, so what was the sacrifice?

Keep in mind, earth is only a steeping stone to get to heaven anyway, right?

I guess I have it in my mind that God sent his son to die, then made him rise from the dead only to rejoin him in Heaven.......the same Heaven that everyone wants to get to anyway? And this paid for mans' sin? Like I said, I don't get it....

A righteous God took on the sins of the world. It wasn't until I got saved that I really understood how hard it had to be for Him to take all the sins of the world and be separated from His Fathers presence. It takes salvation to really understand sin and to hate sin(Romans 12:9) ,not saying your not saved ,if you are saved you may find your answer in the Gospel of John, may take some spiritual growth. But if sin separates you from God imagine taking on the whole worlds sin, here we are 2000 something years later and His grace still abounds. Thank God for Jesus.

This is a supposedly immortal being we’re talking about, right? A god with a lot of power and, I would think, some significant influence over the creator of the universe. A god who can have virtually anything he wants.

So he lived as a man, separated from his father, for thirty-some-odd years and had a bad day at the end. Seems like a small price to pay, considering the perks.

He took on all the sins of the world? What did he do with them? Does he feel constant pain? Did he miraculously make them disappear? Did he store them somewhere in heaven, in case he needs them someday?

I agree with HoodyHoo. I don’t get the whole “sacrifice” thing at all.

Interesting that the "creator" of everything would HAVE to sacrifice anything for anything..........

Quite frankly, Hoody, you're asking a question that requires faith to understand. You're putting the cart before the horse. Until you acknowledge that there is a God, no answer we could give will make sense to you.

I suppose I will have to yield to your opinion and assume that I might very well not understand any answer you can give. When I started this thread I assumed the answer would be pretty clear cut. It seems as though you hear people whom are trying to convert people all the time say, "Don't you know that Jesus sacrificed himself for you, why don't you follow him?" An explaination of this sacrifice and the logic behind the claim would be a nice touch.

Obviously the answer is not all that clear cut, as this thread has had very little action......

To get a good answer as to why God would send His son to die would take more than I could type here. We would have to first start with understanding Who God is and what He wants and go from there. I've taken a full 90 minute class to teach this, just scratching the surface. Then we would have to cover creation –– no, not the literalist interpretation of 24-hr periods and young earth beliefs, which I don't ascribe to anyway –– and how God created Man differently from the rest of creation (basically the nature of Man created in God's image and likeness), then get to the Fall before we could even touch on the Son of God becoming Man and dying for our sins.

"For the wages of sin is death" This is also a spiritual death, with out salvation you are unaware of your spiritual side, someone that has never been saved has always been separated from feeling God's presence this doesn't mean He doesn't answer your prayers are work in your life, He sends rain on just and on the unjust (Matthew 5:45). It's through the Holy Ghost that we that are saved and feel the presence of God. When Jesus took on the sins of the world on the cross this separated Him from His Father.
Romans 6:16-23 (ESV)
16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




Revelation 1:5 (KJV)
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

John 8:33-35 (ESV)
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.

1 John 1:4-10
4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The premise is this:

We as mortal men must make a willing choice to follow God's will.

By our very nature, we are sinful according to God because of our bodies and minds which we inherited through Adam and Eve. We are sinners by default if you will. There is a 'natural man' that is inherent in all of us that we are expected to be in control of. This is the part of us that chooses to do what is wrong, harm others, and uncaring. We cannot come unto our Father in Heaven because of this. We are separated from Heaven.

This is not a problem, however.

God had a plan for our salvation which we could gain by Grace (The Christian teaching is that grace is unmerited mercy that God gave to us by sending his son to die on a cross to give us eternal salvation) and by which we can become 'clean' and be without sin. It is not something that is one time but active and requires our continual effort to maintain. Repentance and not doing sin again.

This separation was also part of the plan of God's. We are separated with no knowledge of God except what we learn through reading, prayer, and revelation's of Prophets. By us voluntarily choosing to follow and allow God's Grace into our lives we are agreeing that God was right and Satan was not.

Christ literally means 'Sacrifice", another name for Jesus. The sacrifice of the particular lamb that was born in the Old Testament was a direct reminder that Jesus would come. An honest and pure man who has not sinned in the eyes of God, willingly giving up his power and authority to be murdered on a cross for those who chose to follow His Father. At any time Jesus could have asked for help and the Hosts of Heaven would have come to his aid. He showed restraint and love by not doing so.

His Son had to follow the plan willingly as well. He had a certain set of duties to perform one of which was to meet the obligation of the oldest son in the earthly family and make sure his mother and siblings were cared for before going on his mission after his father passed away. He was a good son in more ways than one. He even got baptized because it was His Father's will that in his statement, "...all things are completed in Me."

The reward for a faithful and diligent 'servant' for God is to return to Him. Especially His Son.

To get there, you must recognize there is a problem in your life...something missing. Then you should willingly seek after what is good and just and find God. Acknowledge your faults and repent of that which you are doing wrong. Make restitution for those things that you can do so and don't do them again. Be baptized for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the acceptance of the Holy Spirit to assist you in your life. Regular reading of scripture and prayer, attendance in your choice of organization and supporting it (fellowship of like minded people is important as support and uplifting to a person). Follow the teachings of Christ.

These are the requirements for obtaining Heaven based on God's Plan.

Doing these willingly makes for a pleasant and happy person in the eyes of our Creator, and a choice person in His house.

Good to see ya around.

I’m not sure I fully get the whole question so stay with me.

I don’t follow the “Earth is just a stepping stone” part as if there are many stones aligned as a path of sorts to heaven.
There are some groups who claim that there are multiple stages to enter heaven and this life is simply one of those stages.
That is not the view of the Historical Christian Church or in my understanding the teaching of Scripture.
For the time being ill step away from that aspect of the question and we can come back to it later if you want.
Let's look at what I think might be the root of your thinking.

The root of the question seems to be on the necessity of Jesus Christs death…or the sacrifice of Jesus as the Perfect Lamb of God.
Why was it necessary?
What did it accomplish?
There are several angles we can look at here but one concept I think we need to start with is this basic concept of heaven.
As you stated; everyone seems to want to go there....but why?
The Bible gives us this glimpse of Heaven as a place of perfection, no sadness no more death.
All the pain, sadness and suffering of this world will be forgotten.
But the Bible also point out that the primary aspect of Heaven is not just about a life of bliss....but a eternal relationship with our Creator.
Humanity looking into the very face of Deity.

So to make sure we both understand your concept of heaven (weather you believe in it or not) let’s ask a few more questions to build a basic understanding of what we are all talking about
In your concept of Heaven is there room for men such as Adolph Hitler and Charles Manson......what about Gandhi and Al Gore??

God allowing it was not important as God allows all sorts of things. The important thing is that Jesus sacrificed every minute of every hour of every day to God, and obeyed even unto death.



Your thought isn't random, it is a natural result of an observed contradiction between your assumptions and reality. Ayn Rand suggested that there are no contradictions, just flawed assumptions. She would be right in this instance.

To reiterate, Jesus sacrificed every minute of every hour of every day to God, and obeyed even unto death.



I need a scripture for that one. The bible talks of the resurrection and Jesus coming back to the earth. Nothing in there about sinners going to heaven.



I don't know anything about rejoining him. The bible says Jesus was concieved and born. His conception was a little different, but he was born, and grew in stature and knowledge, and lived and was tempted and died like every other man. The unique feature is that he rose again by the power of God and did so in a permanent manner.

Another doctrinal problem presented by your understanding is that Jesus paid the price for man's sins, it denies grace. If God got paid, then there is no grace. The wages of sin is death, and since everybody still dies who ever taught you that Jesus paid the price for man's sins needs to go back to the bible and try again.

Hebrews 9 describes the transaction and relates it to an old testament ritual (the atonement in Lev. 16). The sacrifice was not to make payment, but for Christ to gain entrance to the diety and mediate between God and men.


Jesus did pay the price for us to be free from the bondage of sin by fulfilling the law. That is an entirely different matter.

Well, I guess if I had a view of heaven I would say that all of those individuals should/would be allowed into heaven if they realized their sins, truly believed in God, and asked forgiveness?
Other questions I would add to the ones you proposed above are: What did God sacrifice (if anything) by allowing his son to come to earth, be killed, but then rise back to him? What did Jesus sacrifice?

Thank you for your response.

One question that kept coming to my mind while I read it involved the trinity. If my GENERIC understanding is correct, the trinity is God in three separate but equal parts? If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all "the same" being, what is a sacrifice between the Father and Son?

Double

Good question. The doctrine of the trinity which is nowhere explicitely described in scripture and isn't given as a necessary condition to complete God's purpose, muddies up so much of what God did through Jesus.

1 Peter 1:18-19 (ESV)
18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

This is one of the scriptures that the ideal of Jesus paying for our sins came from, I believe it's because of His grace I was able to ask Him to cover my wages.

I enjoyed your answer and I'm not disagreeing with you ,but sometimes common Christian sayings are simplified verses ,or come from several chapters. The Bible sometimes repeats the same message just in another way. Some of us Christians believe in the same way just use different sayings to express it, because of our background and locations. Not saying that all Christian sayings are biblical ,but some are hard to find in the Bible.

Heaven is not just a place of Love but of justice. We don’t expect men like Hitler to be in Heaven because of their visible sin that we all find it easy to agree on. The problem arises when we disagree on the sins of the heart. Some religious people demand that the likes of Gandhi and Gore must be in heaven simple because they fit into a personal or philosophical mold of our likening.

Example; Religion of the mind allows us to universally deem Hitler as unjust and worthy of judgment because of his evil actions while we see the just and good actions of Gandhi as merit enough to bypass judgment.
But the Bible gives us a picture where all men have sinned and are separated from God… not just in the visible actions of the flesh like the murders of Hitler but the hidden sins of the heart such as lust, greed and pride. For sure Hitler’s sins are great….however, God’s standards for a relationship with him are not based on small sinners verses great sinners….but sinful men verses holy men.

The Bible tells us that none are holy; all have fallen short of God’s standards. By simply breaking one law we have broken them all.
The lust and pride in my heart makes me as unworthy of a relationship with my Creator as the murders that Hitler has on his hands.
For that guilt the Bible tells us that the punishment is death…my sin, Gandhi’s sin and Hitler’s sin makes each of us guilty.
All are guilty of sin, all fall under the curse of sin, and all will be judged because of sin.
The Bible tells us that The Holy God who is perfect in his justice and judgment has pronounced the verdict on humanities guilt; and the verdict is death…..the payment for our guilt is death.
Mankind falls under a curse of physical and spiritual death and separation from our Creator.

But the Bible also tells us that God who is perfect in Justice and Judgment is also perfect in Grace and Mercy. That God was not surprised by sin but planned for our sin.
By His decree our guilt demands our punishment our blood. The bail for the guilty is set at a price we cannot ever hope to attain. We stand unworthy and broken.
Enter religion; the solution for a broken people is to find a way to repair itself. To somehow bridge the gap between humanity and Deity.
We began by creating our own religions by instituting a personal system of merits. By our own effort we will seek to earn back the favor of God.
By creating and following a strict system of rules we hope to show God that we are worthy of Him. We can rid ourselves of unrighteousness and pay our dept to Him.

Every culture might reflect a unanimous idea of perfection and a collective understanding of religion. But at the root, the individual begins setting personal standards of right and wrong, good and evil.
By choosing to do right and good most of the time we like to think we can balance the scales of Justice back into our favor.
We like to think that we can begin replacing what we know to be wrong with what we think to be right. If we suffer enough, if we give enough, if we diet enough, of we abstain enough, if we pray enough…perhaps we can stand before a Holy God.
All manmade religions of the world look to atone for personal imperfection through a system of merits and a list of actions that will make us worthy (or perhaps even simply give us a better chance) of standing before our Creator.

We understand imperfection and judgment….so we seek to find our own solution.
But the Judgment was not in our power just as the Solution is not in our power.

Romans 5:6-21

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What's up Hoody Hoo21!

Good to hear that you are still hanging out to some degree around here!

Alright, now you and I have been in several threads together over some years now, and I know that if you are still asking some of the same like questions about God, and faith in Him, then what's the deal?.

So where is it that you stand on all of this right now because are you possibly searching for some new information that would make more sense to you in an educated analytical fashion, in and of the scientific method, or from within the deepest roots of the superceeding realm of the Spirit, which is just as eternal or everlasting in its origins as the other, in one particular form or another?

Now, you might think that I am being sarcastic or even facetious concerning this, but really if you can understand that I say these things out of respect and love for you, even to the point that I would give my own right hand with no bandage to bind it up if it meant that you would, or could, come to the full knowledge of Jesus Christ once and for all, and for all time with Him, in Him... then so be it!

Do you believe and understand why that I would do this for you Hoody Hoo21?

Your friend,

SAE

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