AR15.Com Archives
 AR15 bump stock = legal or not?
myfakename  [Team Member]
11/15/2010 3:03:51 AM EST
I did a search back 30 days, lemme know if this is a dupe.

It seems this is a similar design of the famed Akins Accelerator which the ATF deemed illegal after first saying it was legal. Looks neat but I don't think it will fly.
VIDEO
Paid Advertisement
--
Big-Bore  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 6:05:18 AM EST
After the Atkins screwing I would not touch one of these for anything. I question if the ATFE actually has approved the stock because in their ruling in the Atkins case they specifically state that any product that allows full auto rate of fire makes it a machine gun, and this stock does that and is exactly like the Atkins stock which the ATFE has already ruled on (unless of course they changed their mind again).
yosarian  [Member]
11/14/2010 6:07:44 AM EST
Looks very intresting.But if I remember correctly the atkins device was legal at first and then the atf changed thier minds and all the owners of the atkins device had to send them back in or deactivate them.I could be wrong.
Terminator2003  [Member]
11/14/2010 6:14:24 AM EST
Wow, that is super cool, but don't get how the heck it could be legal. Wouldn't that be considered a class 3 firearm with that mod? If not, why?
TwoDogKnight  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 6:16:33 AM EST
We'll have t waitand see. Looks simple and seems to be within the letter of the law. I don't trust the ATF to continue alowing this if they did . 6 days and then what?
USP45Tim  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 6:20:47 AM EST
If you enjoy wasting ammo, knock yourself out.
shadowcop  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 6:25:30 AM EST
I don't see any way the ATF will aprove that. I don't see it for sale any where.
Fearless  [Member]
11/14/2010 6:32:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
I don't see any way the ATF will aprove that. I don't see it for sale any where.


That might be because it's not after November 20th yet.
Fearless  [Member]
11/14/2010 6:37:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
I don't see any way the ATF will aprove that. I don't see it for sale any where.

Part of me agrees with that, but considering ATF's prior rulings on Akins' (sp?) device I don't see how they could not approve it. The Akins Accelerator did get initial approval from the ATF as a stock, and when ATF reneged they made folks who bought the stocks turn in the internals, but not the stock itself.

I could be missing some details as I didn't follow that debacle too closely, but that's how I remember it. I'm sure someone'll come along to correct me in 3... 2...1...

RabidMonkeyPox  [Member]
11/14/2010 6:44:16 AM EST
I forsee the ATF stepping in at 3....2.....
SMOKINSTEEL  [Member]
11/14/2010 6:45:44 AM EST
TAg - I want ot see where this goes...
rageracing  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 6:55:48 AM EST
I wouldnt get one even if it was legal. Seems like a silly accessory that has no real benefit other than wasting good ammo. To each their own......
myfakename  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 6:58:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Fearless:
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
I don't see any way the ATF will aprove that. I don't see it for sale any where.

Part of me agrees with that, but considering ATF's prior rulings on Akins' (sp?) device I don't see how they could not approve it. The Akins Accelerator did get initial approval from the ATF as a stock, and when ATF reneged they made folks who bought the stocks turn in the internals, but not the stock itself.

I could be missing some details as I didn't follow that debacle too closely, but that's how I remember it. I'm sure someone'll come along to correct me in 3... 2...1...



You are correct. The spring and other hardware had to be turned in, the stock was not the issue. This ar15 bump stock does not have springs as stated in the video. It looks like the only thing needed to make it work as designed is some forward pressure on the handguard.
Whocares05050  [Member]
11/14/2010 7:00:28 AM EST
Are they able to track this? Meaning... If you do buy one, then later ruled it illegal, and you dont send it back...
beequewl  [Member]
11/14/2010 8:06:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By Whocares05050:
Are they able to track this? Meaning... If you do buy one, then later ruled it illegal, and you dont send it back...


Then it sounds like you would be in possesion of an unlicensed MG.
Phixeon  [Member]
11/14/2010 8:20:54 AM EST
Want to shoot faster? Get a lighter trigger. I put a Jard 2.5lbs adjustable in my carbine and it was all I could do to keep the damn thing from rattling off 2-3 round bursts on the recoil. It was too bad, too, because it felt AMAZING in dry firing. However, I like the sanctity of my anus and am not a fan of enormous fines, so I put the stock trigger back in to prevent any unfortunate conversations with law enforcement on the public ranges that I go to.
gmtmaster  [Member]
11/14/2010 9:01:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Whocares05050:
Are they able to track this? Meaning... If you do buy one, then later ruled it illegal, and you dont send it back...


They know who you are....
Gravity3694  [Member]
11/14/2010 10:03:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Whocares05050:
Are they able to track this? Meaning... If you do buy one, then later ruled it illegal, and you dont send it back...


They know who you are....

We're all on the "list."

This will stock will be banned. It's too "mechanical" in it's nature to be legal, much like the Atkins.
WMurderface  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 10:14:35 AM EST
Im assuming this video was shot at a gun show....
jerz_subbie  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 10:33:18 AM EST
Me no want!!!!

I am curious as to the BATFE's reaction to it or this supposed approval letter, though.
southerncross  [Member]
11/14/2010 11:37:36 AM EST
just looks like more proof to the super left wing liberals that gun owners are going to overthrow their socialist/marxist govt project we call america. i don't see this being legal for long and i don't really think i'd want it if it was.
cchurchi  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 11:55:21 AM EST
That just assists bump firing. The trigger is still being pulled by the shooters finger 30 times per 30 round mag. If pulling a trigger really fast with your finger is illegal, then what's next, a 5 seconds between each shot rule from the ATF?

I don't bump fire anymore, but I used to be able to accurately bump fire with the rifle shouldered simply by locking my arm and finger in place and then pulling the rifle forward by the forearm. How is that any different then this product?

I don't see this product being illegal because firing once per trigger pull is all that is happening.
DV8  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 12:02:33 PM EST
They didn't claim the ATF or US Government would approve it. They clearly stated the "GOVENMENT" would approve it. I am sure that GOVENMENT guy will make an appearance in court on their behalf.


Enigma102083  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 12:30:31 PM EST
What made the Atkins device illegal was the fact that it was a spring pulling the gun forward that fired the round. This appears to work just like bump firing, where the operator is pulling the gun forward, and not a spring. As long as the gun reciprocates freely in the stock with no springs and the energy provided to pull the trigger is done so by the operator, then technically this is legal.
Gunnerpalace  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 12:38:12 PM EST
Assuming it's not 400.00 bucks......

I think I will be Arfcom's guinea pig for this,

PistolPutz  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 1:23:32 PM EST
I believe I heard in the video that $289 was the intro price. I am assuming that it will probably be close to $400 after that. Just a guess though. It seems as if they are taking payments/orders now.
ToroAzul  [Member]
11/14/2010 4:34:10 PM EST
It is completely legal to own this stock...

Just don't have an AR under the same roof.
Bigshot64  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 4:38:30 PM EST
id love to see this fly. just as something fun


i wouldnt bet my ass or my family's ass on it being reliable though
AJE  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 4:52:02 PM EST
They will find a way to turn around and say it's illegal, just like they did with the 10/22 stock.
Alaskacajun  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 5:14:41 PM EST
Somewhere, MarcM's head is exploding....

- Clint
TheMightyAdam  [Member]
11/14/2010 5:20:21 PM EST
I like to know if these would work with a .22 conversion. That would make my day.
muddawggin  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 5:22:07 PM EST
I'm curious to see the letter from BATFE declining legal ownership.
Bigshot64  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 5:36:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheMightyAdam:
I like to know if these would work with a .22 conversion. That would make my day.


i doubt it..... it uses the recoil to "make you pull the trigger" again
buckmeister  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 6:47:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bigshot64:
Originally Posted By TheMightyAdam:
I like to know if these would work with a .22 conversion. That would make my day.


i doubt it..... it uses the recoil to "make you pull the trigger" again


Actually, it is the rebound following recoil that pushes the trigger into the finger. Recoil moves the trigger back, away from the finger, allowing the trigger to reset, and "pulled" again on the rebound (facilitated by the forward pressure of the offhand on the handguard or forward grip). The Accelerator used a spring to furnish the rebound or forward push.

buckmeister
shrikefan  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 7:17:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheMightyAdam:
I like to know if these would work with a .22 conversion. That would make my day.




azeyecap  [Member]
11/14/2010 7:29:33 PM EST
how come no one has post the "its a trap!" picture
808Sig  [Member]
11/14/2010 8:32:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By cchurchi:
That just assists bump firing. The trigger is still being pulled by the shooters finger 30 times per 30 round mag. If pulling a trigger really fast with your finger is illegal, then what's next, a 5 seconds between each shot rule from the ATF?

I don't bump fire anymore, but I used to be able to accurately bump fire with the rifle shouldered simply by locking my arm and finger in place and then pulling the rifle forward by the forearm. How is that any different then this product?

I don't see this product being illegal because firing once per trigger pull is all that is happening.
Same thing as the Akins Accelerator. One shot per pull of the trigger. So why is the Akins Accelerator now illegal?

Enigma102083  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 8:37:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By 808Sig:
Originally Posted By cchurchi:
That just assists bump firing. The trigger is still being pulled by the shooters finger 30 times per 30 round mag. If pulling a trigger really fast with your finger is illegal, then what's next, a 5 seconds between each shot rule from the ATF?

I don't bump fire anymore, but I used to be able to accurately bump fire with the rifle shouldered simply by locking my arm and finger in place and then pulling the rifle forward by the forearm. How is that any different then this product?

I don't see this product being illegal because firing once per trigger pull is all that is happening.
Same thing as the Akins Accelerator. One shot per pull of the trigger. So why is the Akins Accelerator now illegal?



Because the "pulling" of the trigger was done by a spring, not by the operator. This device the pull is done by the operator.
evlblkwpnz  [Team Member]
11/14/2010 8:51:10 PM EST
I shot a 4 FA weapons a few weeks ago and I have the fever If business is good for the next couple quarters, I will be buying a RDIAS or an M16.... FTW

Here's my $200.... now run along
jhud  [Team Member]
11/15/2010 4:19:31 AM EST
My first thought was "oh no, some rednecks gonna shoot his eye out".

Does this thing only do full magdumps ?
I can pull 2 round burst off with mine, buts its got a real legal sear installed in it.
shrikefan  [Team Member]
11/15/2010 5:47:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
Originally Posted By 808Sig:
Originally Posted By cchurchi:
That just assists bump firing. The trigger is still being pulled by the shooters finger 30 times per 30 round mag. If pulling a trigger really fast with your finger is illegal, then what's next, a 5 seconds between each shot rule from the ATF?

I don't bump fire anymore, but I used to be able to accurately bump fire with the rifle shouldered simply by locking my arm and finger in place and then pulling the rifle forward by the forearm. How is that any different then this product?

I don't see this product being illegal because firing once per trigger pull is all that is happening.
Same thing as the Akins Accelerator. One shot per pull of the trigger. So why is the Akins Accelerator now illegal?



Because the "pulling" of the trigger was done by a spring, not by the operator. This device the pull is done by the operator.


Actually, I believe you are pushing the trigger into the finger.

But I agree with your summary. On the Akins device all the operator contact points remain stationary while the device reciprocates under it's own power so to speak. I keep going back and forth on the Akins device since I can kind of see both sides. There really is no operator involvement after the first shot is fired.

The bump fire stock requires continuous operator involvement in the firing process.

Logic tells me it should be legal. But we all know about logic and the .gov.

muddawggin  [Team Member]
11/15/2010 1:53:22 PM EST
I called the right to bear ammo today in regards to this stock. The lady said there will be no more info released until the stocks are in their hands, and each one will be shipped with a letter of legality from the BATFE. They are taking deposits to hold them right now...as they "are a limited run." I'd like to try one...but I dunno.....
shrikefan  [Team Member]
11/15/2010 2:34:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By muddawggin:
I called the right to bear ammo today in regards to this stock. The lady said there will be no more info released until the stocks are in their hands, and each one will be shipped with a letter of legality from the BATFE. They are taking deposits to hold them right now...as they "are a limited run." I'd like to try one...but I dunno.....


Price?

muddawggin  [Team Member]
11/15/2010 5:48:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By muddawggin:
I called the right to bear ammo today in regards to this stock. The lady said there will be no more info released until the stocks are in their hands, and each one will be shipped with a letter of legality from the BATFE. They are taking deposits to hold them right now...as they "are a limited run." I'd like to try one...but I dunno.....


Price?



You know I don't remember the exact price. I was more interested in the legal topic, but I am pretty sure it was 3 bills.

ETA...If you want the phone number IM me and I'll shoot it over to you.

Shermantor-AR15  [Member]
11/16/2010 3:49:38 AM EST
So will the BATFE write a letter saying that it is illegal for Jerry Miculek to even touch a gun because doing so would be considered making a newly manufactured machine gun?

I saw him on TV shoot a 1911 at a 622 RPM rate, that's faster than the M16's 600 RPM rate.
shrikefan  [Team Member]
11/16/2010 6:40:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By muddawggin:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By muddawggin:
I called the right to bear ammo today in regards to this stock. The lady said there will be no more info released until the stocks are in their hands, and each one will be shipped with a letter of legality from the BATFE. They are taking deposits to hold them right now...as they "are a limited run." I'd like to try one...but I dunno.....


Price?



You know I don't remember the exact price. I was more interested in the legal topic, but I am pretty sure it was 3 bills.

ETA...If you want the phone number IM me and I'll shoot it over to you.



Thanks. That's about 2 bills out of my threshhold for something like this. I'll let somebody else be the test case.

shrikefan  [Team Member]
11/16/2010 6:41:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By Shermantor-AR15:
So will the BATFE write a letter saying that it is illegal for Jerry Miculek to even touch a gun because doing so would be considered making a newly manufactured machine gun?

I saw him on TV shoot a 1911 at a 622 RPM rate, that's faster than the M16's 600 RPM rate.


I'm sure Jerry was made before the 1986 cutoff.

shrikefan  [Team Member]
11/19/2010 8:36:35 PM EST
Welp. Today is the big day.
ragedracer1977  [Team Member]
11/19/2010 10:10:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Welp. Today is the big day.


And the video is removed.
muddawggin  [Team Member]
11/20/2010 12:57:15 PM EST
I hope someone here buys one so they can review it for the rest of us.
bobweaver  [Team Member]
12/9/2010 2:09:17 PM EST
Robin called me today and said they are shipping out in a few days. Now that the website is up, www.slidefiresolutions.com it looks like you have to remove your grip too. Not what I expected but money order was already sent so we'll see how it functions in a few days. I saw it at the Fort Worth show and said what the hell, just something fun to play with.
Paid Advertisement
--