Archived Posts » 60,546,157
Storing Pool Shock, Revisited
5/19/2012 4:06:34 PM
Having searched the archives, I found a number of threads on this topic, but no real solutions to the issue I'm having. This thread came closest.
A couple of months ago, I bought 2 bags of Leslie's Power Powder Plus and vacuum packed them. Last week, I bought two more and sealed them as well. When I went to store the new bags, I found that the original ones have puffed to the point that they're about to explode. The newer packages are sealed together in the same Food Saver bag and after only a week are not quite as hard as they originally were. They've been stored in the garage but have not seen temps much over the mid-90's. Average temp is much less.
So it's clear that the sodium calcium hypochlorite is outgassing. This causes me great concern for the numerous posts I saw advocating Mason jars or other glass container for storage. That seems extremely foolish now. Mylar is also a very bad idea because the sodium hypochlorite attackes the aluminized layer directly.
So what is a better option for storage? Throwing the bags directly into a 5 gallon pail with loose seals? Or is there a decent container out there that offers a pressure relief valve? I guess a Pelican case would fit that bill, but that's an expensive way to store it.
Also, given the fairly rapid outgassing, I wonder what the real-world shelf life of the stuff is.
(Edited to unfart my brain fart)
A couple of months ago, I bought 2 bags of Leslie's Power Powder Plus and vacuum packed them. Last week, I bought two more and sealed them as well. When I went to store the new bags, I found that the original ones have puffed to the point that they're about to explode. The newer packages are sealed together in the same Food Saver bag and after only a week are not quite as hard as they originally were. They've been stored in the garage but have not seen temps much over the mid-90's. Average temp is much less.
So it's clear that the sodium calcium hypochlorite is outgassing. This causes me great concern for the numerous posts I saw advocating Mason jars or other glass container for storage. That seems extremely foolish now. Mylar is also a very bad idea because the sodium hypochlorite attackes the aluminized layer directly.
So what is a better option for storage? Throwing the bags directly into a 5 gallon pail with loose seals? Or is there a decent container out there that offers a pressure relief valve? I guess a Pelican case would fit that bill, but that's an expensive way to store it.
Also, given the fairly rapid outgassing, I wonder what the real-world shelf life of the stuff is.
(Edited to unfart my brain fart)
5/19/2012 5:29:12 PM
throw it in a nalgene bottle if your so worried, mine have been in mason's for 5 years and have not sploded
if you really want to be anal about it, order a couple 1k ml reagent bottles
if you really want to be anal about it, order a couple 1k ml reagent bottles
5/19/2012 6:26:21 PM
I went out to the shed and inspected my Poolshock.
I have four bags, each placed into a quart canning jar. I could have pulled a vacuum on them before I packed them all into a box, but I did not. I simply screwed the ring tight to the flat, and jar.
Two jars showed a slight bulging of the flat. Two did not. I opened the jars with bulging flats. There was an odor of chlorine, but no audible indication that the jars were building up significant pressure. The factory bags the poolshock came in all looked new, which surprised me. I thought there might be degradation of the bags. The rings and flats also looked new.
I put them out in the shed two years ago. Temperature inside the shed varies from approximately zero to 100 degrees.
I don't know the best way to store poolshock, or what the shelf life is.
Just thought I'd share what I found, since you inspired me to go look.
The bulging suck and seal bags would concern me quite a bit if they are stored in the house. I took the jars out of the shed before I opened them, so that any fumes would dissipate before I might get a lung full.
I have four bags, each placed into a quart canning jar. I could have pulled a vacuum on them before I packed them all into a box, but I did not. I simply screwed the ring tight to the flat, and jar.
Two jars showed a slight bulging of the flat. Two did not. I opened the jars with bulging flats. There was an odor of chlorine, but no audible indication that the jars were building up significant pressure. The factory bags the poolshock came in all looked new, which surprised me. I thought there might be degradation of the bags. The rings and flats also looked new.
I put them out in the shed two years ago. Temperature inside the shed varies from approximately zero to 100 degrees.
I don't know the best way to store poolshock, or what the shelf life is.
Just thought I'd share what I found, since you inspired me to go look.
The bulging suck and seal bags would concern me quite a bit if they are stored in the house. I took the jars out of the shed before I opened them, so that any fumes would dissipate before I might get a lung full.
5/19/2012 7:12:53 PM
Could you put something like a check valve in the lid of a mason jar? Basically, a one-way air outlet to allow for outgassing while still not allowing more oxygen in...
It would require more research, but something like this is what I am thinking.
It would require more research, but something like this is what I am thinking.
5/19/2012 7:29:34 PM
That is an odd issue. I bought mine in a sealed plastic bag and they show no signs of bulging three years later. You'd think that if it was that big of an issue the manufacturer would use perforated bags or something to keep from having significant messes for those stores that sell their product, but may not have the stock rotation that others do. Another big question is WHAT is off gassing? We assume it's chlorine, but there are other things in the product. Guess it's time to page a chemist...
jim
jim
5/19/2012 7:57:47 PM
Originally Posted By NexQuietus:
That is an odd issue. I bought mine in a sealed plastic bag and they show no signs of bulging three years later. You'd think that if it was that big of an issue the manufacturer would use perforated bags or something to keep from having significant messes for those stores that sell their product, but may not have the stock rotation that others do. Another big question is WHAT is off gassing? We assume it's chlorine, but there are other things in the product. Guess it's time to page a chemist...
jim
That is an odd issue. I bought mine in a sealed plastic bag and they show no signs of bulging three years later. You'd think that if it was that big of an issue the manufacturer would use perforated bags or something to keep from having significant messes for those stores that sell their product, but may not have the stock rotation that others do. Another big question is WHAT is off gassing? We assume it's chlorine, but there are other things in the product. Guess it's time to page a chemist...
jim
I would guess it outgasses oxygen dichloride if exposed to CO2. Depending on what else you toss in there, I would guess chlorine gas is a possible byproduct. I'm not a chemist though...
5/19/2012 10:35:34 PM
It's possible that some moisture may have seeped into the original bags at some point before you vacuum-sealed them.
If so, including some desiccant inside the vacuum-seal bag before sealing it might help, on the assumption that this moisture could also seep out of the original bag and be absorbed by the desiccant.
If so, including some desiccant inside the vacuum-seal bag before sealing it might help, on the assumption that this moisture could also seep out of the original bag and be absorbed by the desiccant.
5/19/2012 10:42:06 PM
ColonelPanic, those check valves are a great idea! I might try that with a 5-gallon or smaller plastic pail.
Yeah, it would be great if a chemist could chime in with some info on the decomposition products. I'm going to need to puncture these bags before they blow. This would be a good time to be a heroin addict so I'd have a hypodermic needle laying around.
Yeah, it would be great if a chemist could chime in with some info on the decomposition products. I'm going to need to puncture these bags before they blow. This would be a good time to be a heroin addict so I'd have a hypodermic needle laying around.
5/19/2012 10:44:51 PM
Originally Posted By Skibane:
It's possible that some moisture may have seeped into the original bags at some point before you vacuum-sealed them.
If so, including some desiccant inside the vacuum-seal bag before sealing it might help, on the assumption that this moisture could also seep out of the original bag and be absorbed by the desiccant.
It's possible that some moisture may have seeped into the original bags at some point before you vacuum-sealed them.
If so, including some desiccant inside the vacuum-seal bag before sealing it might help, on the assumption that this moisture could also seep out of the original bag and be absorbed by the desiccant.
That's possible. The original bags aren't exactly air tight and I'm not very far from you, so you know what humidity can be like. Maybe for my next experiment, I should re-vacuum them and see if the continue outgassing.
5/20/2012 9:28:26 AM
Powder or crystalline Sodium Hypochlorite is VERY hygroscopic (absorbs water). When it absorbs water, it dissociates like so:
Na(OCl)2 + H2O→ HOCl + Na(OH)
Solid Sodium Hypochlorite + Water → Hypochlorous Acid + Sodium Hydroxide
HOCl → H+ + OCl-
Hypochlorous Acid → Hydrogen + Hypochlorite Ion
You're probably getting some hydrogen gas in those bags, which can be quite explosive under the right conditions.
Just FYI
Na(OCl)2 + H2O→ HOCl + Na(OH)
Solid Sodium Hypochlorite + Water → Hypochlorous Acid + Sodium Hydroxide
HOCl → H+ + OCl-
Hypochlorous Acid → Hydrogen + Hypochlorite Ion
You're probably getting some hydrogen gas in those bags, which can be quite explosive under the right conditions.
Just FYI
5/20/2012 10:15:10 AM
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
5/20/2012 10:39:29 AM
Would adding a pack of a drying agent make a difference? Incidentally the package is calcium hypochlorite, not sodium.
5/20/2012 10:42:38 AM
The aluminium is on the OUTSIDE of your mylar bags OP.
Unless you turned them inside out...
Unless you turned them inside out...
5/20/2012 11:30:44 AM
Originally Posted By Bones45:
Would adding a pack of a drying agent make a difference? Incidentally the package is calcium hypochlorite, not sodium.
Would adding a pack of a drying agent make a difference? Incidentally the package is calcium hypochlorite, not sodium.
I believe the commercial Calcium hypochlorite is a hydrate and not the anhydrous salt. A drying agent won't do much in this case. Store it in a container that can vent and realize you may need to replace it after a few years. Considering how cheap it is and how little is needed to treat water replacing it every few years should be a non issue.
5/20/2012 12:19:26 PM
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Are we talking about Sodium Hypochlorite, or Calcium Hypochlorite? The OP mentioned the former, while his pictures clearly show bags of the latter.
The latter would require me to alter my formula a bit for electroneutrality, since Calcium is a divalent cation.
How's my chemistry now?
5/20/2012 1:56:55 PM
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Are we talking about Sodium Hypochlorite, or Calcium Hypochlorite? The OP mentioned the former, while his pictures clearly show bags of the latter.
The latter would require me to alter my formula a bit for electroneutrality, since Calcium is a divalent cation.
How's my chemistry now?
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Are we talking about Sodium Hypochlorite, or Calcium Hypochlorite? The OP mentioned the former, while his pictures clearly show bags of the latter.
The latter would require me to alter my formula a bit for electroneutrality, since Calcium is a divalent cation.
How's my chemistry now?
Not bad, were you a chem major pre-med?
Sodium hypochlorite is not very stable as a solid so I knew the OP was asking about calcium hypochlorite.
5/20/2012 2:03:59 PM
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Not bad, were you a chem major pre-med?
Sodium hypochlorite is not very stable as a solid so I knew the OP was asking about calcium hypochlorite.
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Are we talking about Sodium Hypochlorite, or Calcium Hypochlorite? The OP mentioned the former, while his pictures clearly show bags of the latter.
The latter would require me to alter my formula a bit for electroneutrality, since Calcium is a divalent cation.
How's my chemistry now?
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Are we talking about Sodium Hypochlorite, or Calcium Hypochlorite? The OP mentioned the former, while his pictures clearly show bags of the latter.
The latter would require me to alter my formula a bit for electroneutrality, since Calcium is a divalent cation.
How's my chemistry now?
Not bad, were you a chem major pre-med?
Sodium hypochlorite is not very stable as a solid so I knew the OP was asking about calcium hypochlorite.
Chem minor... but that was a LOT of years ago
5/20/2012 2:50:45 PM
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Are we talking about Sodium Hypochlorite, or Calcium Hypochlorite? The OP mentioned the former, while his pictures clearly show bags of the latter.
I plead brain-fart. Originally Posted By Rich_V:
<snip>
<snip>
Are we talking about Sodium Hypochlorite, or Calcium Hypochlorite? The OP mentioned the former, while his pictures clearly show bags of the latter.
5/20/2012 10:24:14 PM
geesh you guys are over thinking everything - i have about 24 pounds - six 1 pound bags in a trash bag in a seperate small cardboard shoe box - 4 years now - my storage room has not exploded and the bags look just like the day i bought them. i am curious if it will break down but from all my former reading it is supposed to have an almost indefinite shelf life if stored properly ie., 0 to 80 degree room out of the sunlight - unlike the liquid bleach which starts losing potency after 6 or 8 months
5/20/2012 11:55:02 PM
My overthinking is causing it to outgas almost to the point of bursting 
Very interadasting.
Very interadasting.
5/21/2012 6:46:59 AM
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Is there any functional difference between these chemicals and Calcium Hypochlorite - aside from the available chlorine percentage, that is?
5/21/2012 1:21:49 PM
Originally Posted By Wight_Hat:
Is there any functional difference between these chemicals and Calcium Hypochlorite - aside from the available chlorine percentage, that is?
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Is there any functional difference between these chemicals and Calcium Hypochlorite - aside from the available chlorine percentage, that is?
Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione is the active ingredient in Aquatabs used to treat water for emergency drinking among other uses.
Aquatabs® are used by all major aid agencies, NGOs, and peacekeeping / defence forces worldwide for the treatment of human drinking water in emergency situations. 15 billion litres of water were treated using Aquatabs in 2008.
It is potent and more stable than hypochlorite salts. It is available as pool shock in 1 lb bags for about $7.
5/21/2012 1:36:25 PM
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
Hey Doc,
If you are now giving chemistry lessons I'm going to hang my shingle and practice medicine!
The decomposition chemistry of Calcium hypochlorite is dependent on a lot of variables such as temperature, pH, how much water is involved etc.
Read here for a good summary. PDF link
Store it as dry as possible in a cool place in polyethylene bottles or glass with a pressure release option. Personally I prefer to use Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the more soluble Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione for disinfecting water.
This is my choice as well. I bought an 8 lb plastic jug about 4 years ago and have not had any problem. I have them for SHTF when Clorox is unavailable. Do you have
any good mixing instructions? I crushed a tablet and mixed with water and used orthotaladine to test. I am not a chemist so it was a little of this to a gallon of water and test.
Also I wonder if these tabs are consistent with Kaboom Tabs I use to keep my toilets clean. Would be cheaper than Kaboom.
5/21/2012 1:40:11 PM
Originally Posted By fire_medic:
Do you have
any good mixing instructions? I crushed a tablet and mixed with water and used orthotaladine to test. I am not a chemist so it was a little of this to a gallon of water and test.
Also I wonder if these tabs are consistent with Kaboom Tabs I use to keep my toilets clean. Would be cheaper than Kaboom.
Do you have
any good mixing instructions? I crushed a tablet and mixed with water and used orthotaladine to test. I am not a chemist so it was a little of this to a gallon of water and test.
Also I wonder if these tabs are consistent with Kaboom Tabs I use to keep my toilets clean. Would be cheaper than Kaboom.
See the aquatab link above
Aquatabs® Granules
Overview
Aquatabs® granules are added to to drinking water to kill most harmful micro-organisms. The granules dissolve clear within minutes and isinfects the water within 30 minutes.
Presentation
Aquatabs® Granules are available in a 25kg plastic bucket and lid with a 2 year shelf life.
Label Claim
Aquatabs will lead to a 6 log reduction in bacteria, a 4 log reduction in viruses and a 3 log reduction in Cysts (Giardia) within 30 minutes, when used in non turbid water.
Directions for use and dosage
Weigh out and dissolve 20g of Aquatabs® Granules in 1 litre of water. Stir to dissolve. The 1% (10,000mg/l available chlorine) solution is used to disinfect larger quantities of water as follows:
Volume of 1% solution to be added to:
Chlorine Dose Required 10 Litres 100 Litres 1,000 Litres 10,000 Litres 100,000 Litres
1 mg/l 1 ml 10 ml 100 ml 1 Litre 10 Litres
5 mg/l 5 ml 50 ml 500 ml 5 Litres 50 Litres
10 mg/l 10 ml 100 ml 1 Litre 10 Litres 100 Litres
Note: 1mg/l = 1 ppm available chlorine.
Pre-treatment should ensure that the water turbidity is less than 5 NTU before chlorinating.
Ensure that a minimum contact time of 30 minutes is allowed before consumption.
Ensure a thorough mix, by recirculation where appropriate.
Always test for residual chlorine levels. It is desirable to leave a residual chlorine level of 0.3-0.5 mg/l after 30 minutes contact.
During outbreaks it is recommended that chlorine residuals should be maintained as follow:
0.5 mg/l at all points in the supply
1.0 mg/l at standposts and wells
2.0 mg/l in tanker trucks at filling
5/21/2012 2:48:10 PM
I also bought a 12 pack of Pool shock from Leslie Pool supply. I split it with a friend of mine, so kept 6 1-lb. packages. Put them in pretty robust vacuum seal bags and sealed them tight and dry. I placed them on our second floor in a cardboard box. Its air-conditioned. Looked at them about 6 months later, and they had ballooned up pretty big, maybe twice in volume. Of course, this was all gas. I resealed them in new bags. We'll see how this goes.
