Archived Posts » 59,726,163
BMMC and some insights for you (BOB) guys
5/26/2012 7:03:30 PM
I just finished the Army's Basic Military Mountaineering Course (Summer) up at the Army Mountain Warfare School. It's an absolutely phenomenal course, the instructors go all over the world to train and teach, have deployed with the AWG, and do this stuff in their time off. Many have been teaching at the school for years (some decades) and live and breathe this stuff. If any of you mil guys get the chance GO!
While I'm not a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI SF person, but I figured some of you guys might find some of the lessons learned to be useful when planning for whatever it is you think may happen.
The course was centered around how to operate in mountainous terrain and I'll skip over the military specific stuff. This is for those whose plans include walking some long distance carrying a bunch of stuff on them, well. A couple of times sitting in class or rucking up some small mountain I thought of some of the guys on this site loading up on mags, armor, and military rucks who plan to walk the Appalachian trail to safety.
1. Fitness
We hear this thrown around a lot, both as a passive recommendation and a pejorative. While I had been in decent shape prior to BMMC the months time I had before leaving I upped my fitness to running every other day. 3 mile run, 2 mile interval run, 1 mile fast cool-down walk; wearing a full loaded Banshee PC (large E-sapis, side steel plates, 3 mags, a tourniquet, and VOK) Weight was ~30lbs. I still was beat after the first day. Walking any sort of non-level terrain can really beat the body, even for short distances. We only had 45 lbs of gear on for moderate speed, and it still beat all of us into the ground. The peaks at the school don't reach over 400m in height, but moving nonstop with any load without regularly climbing is "difficult".
2. Feet
Along with fitness comes foot care. Learn to deal with blisters properly, wear proper boots.
3. Load Management
Packing should be done as narrowly as possible, built top to bottom. Heavier stuff higher (not at the top) and as close to the body (center of gravity) as possible.
As it was put to us
Almost all of us had a military issue ruck system and I know a lot of guys on here like the military rucks. When using the MOLLE we all spent considerable time adjusting it to our personal fit.
We also removed any external attachments, like an E-tool and carrier and the side sustainment pockets. This kept loads from shifting while moving distances, and was invaluable when moving on unsteady terrain as it keep the load over the body which could prove lifesaving if on any sort of uneven and steep terrain.
Constant revision of your load is crucial. It lets you reevaluate the necessity of items and remove what you don't use, reducing weight. I've read people talking about bringing morale items. The best morale for me is to not hate what I'm doing. I don't need a harmonica, guitar, or hand-cracked laptop to keep me from being bored (especially if I'm afraid of dying due to civil unrest). Along with that; "Reduce Redundant/Non-Essential Equipment". Everything needs to have a dual purpose if possible in the least.
As for the "fighting loadout", all the instructors used PCs, with front and rear but no side-plates. They had as little as they could get away with, most only having the capacity for 3 or 4 mags. One instructor told us the Marines in Helmand are only fighting w/ 3 mags on their loadout. The enemy is light and mobile, not carrying ammo, supplies, or armor.
Those of us who drew armor from the school for the course were issued IOTVs with ESAPIS, an absolutely horrible combination for rucking. I’m kind of miffed I didn’t know PCs were authorized (as the packing list explicitly states OTV or IOTV). If you decide to bugout with armor, plates with backers is infinitely better than a full armor carrier with built in soft armor.
We were told that we needed to adopt the mindset of ultra-light backpackers, and after the first day it became incredibly evident what unnecessary weight does to a person. Most of us had had lots of time carrying heavy loads, but once uneven terrain came into play it changes the whole game.
4. Cold Weather Clothing
Base, insulation, shell.
Base- loose fitting underarmor or "silk-weight" type undergarments.
Insulation- Thicker layers that retain heat
Shell- Soft; breathes but isn't very water resistant. Hard; doesn't breathe but is highly water resistant
Fleece is comfortable and is decent insulation, but doesn't resist the wind and does not retain heat on its own, and the weight/size penalty doesn’t make it worth carrying.
When wet don't strip layers, add layers but only for while stopped.
Many of us wore the PCU "Wind-shirt" during almost the entire class. (In leiu of an ACU blouse, not over). It makes a great dual purpose winter or summer shirt. Dries fast, wicks moisture, stays cool. I'd like an affordable civilian version, but it needs some changes in design.
When it comes to socks, the instructors exclusively recommend Smart Wool and Darn Tough. As with any of the infantry schools, it was highly recommended to wear thin wicking socks under the main socks. This reduces blisters. Socks have 4 vital functions: cushioning, insulation, absorption of perspiration, and reduction of friction.
When working in cold conditions, remember that fuels remain liquid in extreme cold conditions. Not wearing gloves could result in very serious burns. Always have contact gloves on when working with any materials in the winter.
5. Dehydration/Water
You lose 1.5-2 Qts of water a day through sweating breathing, sweating, and perspiration. Up to 4 depending on how cold it is.
On this note, you can't carry enough water. So, purification:
Straw filters are not worth the cash. They can't purify enough water and tend to be cheaply made. None of the instructors carry them whenever they go overseas.
Chemicals can work, but it's somewhat of a science and depending on the chemical can actually be pretty bad for you. Chlorine can require up to 8 drops per liter. And that much Chlorine can mess up your insides long term.
MIOX pens can be among the best solution.
Heat- Water only needs to reach boiling to disinfect the water. (171 degrees)
Filtering- Filtering needs to be done before disinfecting.
When boiling snow, you need to have water in the bottom below the snow or you will burn your pan.
Melting snow requires 6 oz liquid fuel/person/day
6. Stoves:
Jetboils are great on warm days, but the type of fuel (isobutane) does not burn efficiently enough to create any heat in cold weather. I've seen this first hand and it was the only stove I had on me. Luckily it was only a day hike. The gold standard of stoves is the MSR SGK as it can reliably burn pretty much any type of fuel, and a 1 qt bottle can last quite a long time. They also recommended the Primus Himalaya and one of the Brunton stoves (can't remember the model).
7. Navigation
Get some good instruction, and know how to use whatever you decide on. My entire time in the military I've carried a lensatic because it's what I'm trained on. I've had a Suunto M-2 Declinating compass for a while but never learned how to use it. During this course they tossed out the USGI Lensatic and we were all issued Suunto M-2 compasses and Suunto Vector wrist-watches. This is a VERY powerful combination and having the ability to use elevation and relief lines to navigate is invaluable. It was also great learning to use the basic barometer features to predict the weather. Came in handy during the course. (Hint: rising pressure is good, pressure going down is bad). If you carry a compass and have never had training, get some. Boy scout courses, EMS sponsored courses, whatever you can.
There was a lot of information in this course, and this a few highlights based off some of the notes I scribbled in the student handout book. There is a lot more indepth information out there in the public arena. The main takeaway: Move light. Mobility is survivability. Drop the excess mags, guitar, and triple redundant fire starters. Get in shape, because you can never be in shape enough.
Hope this is of some value to you guys.
While I'm not a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI SF person, but I figured some of you guys might find some of the lessons learned to be useful when planning for whatever it is you think may happen.
The course was centered around how to operate in mountainous terrain and I'll skip over the military specific stuff. This is for those whose plans include walking some long distance carrying a bunch of stuff on them, well. A couple of times sitting in class or rucking up some small mountain I thought of some of the guys on this site loading up on mags, armor, and military rucks who plan to walk the Appalachian trail to safety.
1. Fitness
We hear this thrown around a lot, both as a passive recommendation and a pejorative. While I had been in decent shape prior to BMMC the months time I had before leaving I upped my fitness to running every other day. 3 mile run, 2 mile interval run, 1 mile fast cool-down walk; wearing a full loaded Banshee PC (large E-sapis, side steel plates, 3 mags, a tourniquet, and VOK) Weight was ~30lbs. I still was beat after the first day. Walking any sort of non-level terrain can really beat the body, even for short distances. We only had 45 lbs of gear on for moderate speed, and it still beat all of us into the ground. The peaks at the school don't reach over 400m in height, but moving nonstop with any load without regularly climbing is "difficult".
2. Feet
Along with fitness comes foot care. Learn to deal with blisters properly, wear proper boots.
3. Load Management
Packing should be done as narrowly as possible, built top to bottom. Heavier stuff higher (not at the top) and as close to the body (center of gravity) as possible.
As it was put to us
Generally heavier items go on top, however in mountainous environments heavier items should sit a little lower toward the center of gravity
Almost all of us had a military issue ruck system and I know a lot of guys on here like the military rucks. When using the MOLLE we all spent considerable time adjusting it to our personal fit.
We also removed any external attachments, like an E-tool and carrier and the side sustainment pockets. This kept loads from shifting while moving distances, and was invaluable when moving on unsteady terrain as it keep the load over the body which could prove lifesaving if on any sort of uneven and steep terrain.
Constant revision of your load is crucial. It lets you reevaluate the necessity of items and remove what you don't use, reducing weight. I've read people talking about bringing morale items. The best morale for me is to not hate what I'm doing. I don't need a harmonica, guitar, or hand-cracked laptop to keep me from being bored (especially if I'm afraid of dying due to civil unrest). Along with that; "Reduce Redundant/Non-Essential Equipment". Everything needs to have a dual purpose if possible in the least.
As for the "fighting loadout", all the instructors used PCs, with front and rear but no side-plates. They had as little as they could get away with, most only having the capacity for 3 or 4 mags. One instructor told us the Marines in Helmand are only fighting w/ 3 mags on their loadout. The enemy is light and mobile, not carrying ammo, supplies, or armor.
Those of us who drew armor from the school for the course were issued IOTVs with ESAPIS, an absolutely horrible combination for rucking. I’m kind of miffed I didn’t know PCs were authorized (as the packing list explicitly states OTV or IOTV). If you decide to bugout with armor, plates with backers is infinitely better than a full armor carrier with built in soft armor.
We were told that we needed to adopt the mindset of ultra-light backpackers, and after the first day it became incredibly evident what unnecessary weight does to a person. Most of us had had lots of time carrying heavy loads, but once uneven terrain came into play it changes the whole game.
4. Cold Weather Clothing
Base, insulation, shell.
Base- loose fitting underarmor or "silk-weight" type undergarments.
Insulation- Thicker layers that retain heat
Shell- Soft; breathes but isn't very water resistant. Hard; doesn't breathe but is highly water resistant
Fleece is comfortable and is decent insulation, but doesn't resist the wind and does not retain heat on its own, and the weight/size penalty doesn’t make it worth carrying.
When wet don't strip layers, add layers but only for while stopped.
Many of us wore the PCU "Wind-shirt" during almost the entire class. (In leiu of an ACU blouse, not over). It makes a great dual purpose winter or summer shirt. Dries fast, wicks moisture, stays cool. I'd like an affordable civilian version, but it needs some changes in design.
When it comes to socks, the instructors exclusively recommend Smart Wool and Darn Tough. As with any of the infantry schools, it was highly recommended to wear thin wicking socks under the main socks. This reduces blisters. Socks have 4 vital functions: cushioning, insulation, absorption of perspiration, and reduction of friction.
When working in cold conditions, remember that fuels remain liquid in extreme cold conditions. Not wearing gloves could result in very serious burns. Always have contact gloves on when working with any materials in the winter.
5. Dehydration/Water
You lose 1.5-2 Qts of water a day through sweating breathing, sweating, and perspiration. Up to 4 depending on how cold it is.
On this note, you can't carry enough water. So, purification:
Straw filters are not worth the cash. They can't purify enough water and tend to be cheaply made. None of the instructors carry them whenever they go overseas.
Chemicals can work, but it's somewhat of a science and depending on the chemical can actually be pretty bad for you. Chlorine can require up to 8 drops per liter. And that much Chlorine can mess up your insides long term.
MIOX pens can be among the best solution.
Heat- Water only needs to reach boiling to disinfect the water. (171 degrees)
Filtering- Filtering needs to be done before disinfecting.
When boiling snow, you need to have water in the bottom below the snow or you will burn your pan.
Melting snow requires 6 oz liquid fuel/person/day
6. Stoves:
Jetboils are great on warm days, but the type of fuel (isobutane) does not burn efficiently enough to create any heat in cold weather. I've seen this first hand and it was the only stove I had on me. Luckily it was only a day hike. The gold standard of stoves is the MSR SGK as it can reliably burn pretty much any type of fuel, and a 1 qt bottle can last quite a long time. They also recommended the Primus Himalaya and one of the Brunton stoves (can't remember the model).
7. Navigation
Get some good instruction, and know how to use whatever you decide on. My entire time in the military I've carried a lensatic because it's what I'm trained on. I've had a Suunto M-2 Declinating compass for a while but never learned how to use it. During this course they tossed out the USGI Lensatic and we were all issued Suunto M-2 compasses and Suunto Vector wrist-watches. This is a VERY powerful combination and having the ability to use elevation and relief lines to navigate is invaluable. It was also great learning to use the basic barometer features to predict the weather. Came in handy during the course. (Hint: rising pressure is good, pressure going down is bad). If you carry a compass and have never had training, get some. Boy scout courses, EMS sponsored courses, whatever you can.
There was a lot of information in this course, and this a few highlights based off some of the notes I scribbled in the student handout book. There is a lot more indepth information out there in the public arena. The main takeaway: Move light. Mobility is survivability. Drop the excess mags, guitar, and triple redundant fire starters. Get in shape, because you can never be in shape enough.
Hope this is of some value to you guys.
5/26/2012 7:27:49 PM
Of value? More like invaluable!
Well put together, you confirm the ideology of (unfortunately) the few in here, and shoot down the "dreamers".
Thanks for taking the time to put this together, and more importantly, thanks for your service.
Well put together, you confirm the ideology of (unfortunately) the few in here, and shoot down the "dreamers".
Thanks for taking the time to put this together, and more importantly, thanks for your service.
5/26/2012 7:30:47 PM
This is good stuff, thanks for taking the time to post.
I knew most of this stuff, but I didn't know this: "When wet don't strip layers, add layers but only for while stopped. ". So the idea is to leave wet layers on until you're done moving for the day? Is this because dry clothes will just get wet anyway?
Regarding water purification, water boils at about 212F at sea level and at about 194F at 10,000 feet.
I knew most of this stuff, but I didn't know this: "When wet don't strip layers, add layers but only for while stopped. ". So the idea is to leave wet layers on until you're done moving for the day? Is this because dry clothes will just get wet anyway?
Regarding water purification, water boils at about 212F at sea level and at about 194F at 10,000 feet.
5/26/2012 7:49:35 PM
Originally Posted By ar-ak:
This is good stuff, thanks for taking the time to post.
I knew most of this stuff, but I didn't know this: "When wet don't strip layers, add layers but only for while stopped. ". So the idea is to leave wet layers on until you're done moving for the day? Is this because dry clothes will just get wet anyway?
Regarding water purification, water boils at about 212F at sea level and at about 194F at 10,000 feet.
This is good stuff, thanks for taking the time to post.
I knew most of this stuff, but I didn't know this: "When wet don't strip layers, add layers but only for while stopped. ". So the idea is to leave wet layers on until you're done moving for the day? Is this because dry clothes will just get wet anyway?
Regarding water purification, water boils at about 212F at sea level and at about 194F at 10,000 feet.
Gotcha on the temp. I may have misheard. Taking down LOTS of notes as fast as I could.
On the clothing, kind of the opposite. As you move your body heat will dry the clothing provided its not pouring. If you have the right clothing even wet it will still retain heat, so shedding those layers will make you shed heat.
The instructors are always doing studies and tests for the Army and other organizations. In regards to the above, they told us they did a study with 3 people. Mid winter, below zero temps. They submerged the 3 people in a nearby river. 1 was wearing the current Army Gen-3 7-layer system, 1 was wearing the older woodland Gore-tex and poly-pros, and one was wearing ACUs. After being submerged in the river they went on a ruck march. A few hours in, the guy in the 7-layer was completely dry, the goretex guy was damp but not uncomfortable, and the guy in the standard ACUs has already been removed from the test for the beginning stages of mild hypothermia. As I understand it, body heat is insulated by clothing even when wet, and the clothing can be dried by the body heat.
Also, cotton looses 100% of its insulating ability when wet, and strips heat from the body 240% faster than bare skin. Meaning you'd be better off shirtless than in a wet cotton teeshirt.
5/26/2012 8:10:45 PM
Found the manual on Scribed
http://www.scribd.com/doc/89542719/ARMY-MOUNTAIN-WARFARE-SCHOOL-MANUAL-BASIC-MILITARY-MOUNTAINEER-COURSE-STUDENT-HANDOUT
http://www.scribd.com/doc/89542719/ARMY-MOUNTAIN-WARFARE-SCHOOL-MANUAL-BASIC-MILITARY-MOUNTAINEER-COURSE-STUDENT-HANDOUT
5/28/2012 6:21:13 PM
Excellent post, thanks OP for taking the time to write it out! 
5/28/2012 6:41:24 PM
Great post OP! Thank you for the info 
5/28/2012 6:50:49 PM
Good post, myself and my team use pretty much all of the stated information when we forward deploy to FOB's. Travel light, travel fast... and take only what you need.
5/28/2012 7:02:13 PM
Regarding Marines fighting in helmand with only 3 mags...total bs, except for one smaw gunner i knew. Three rockets make up for it, though.
5/28/2012 8:47:38 PM
Great post and thanks for the info, I am in the process of re-thinking some stuff in my bug out gear and this really helps a whole lot. I had way way too much stuff in there.
5/28/2012 9:06:48 PM
I've fixed some of the horrible grammatical mistakes and clarified some points.
I'm not sure the circumstances regarding the specific personnel, their resupply methods, or the timeframe. The information was relayed to the class by a SME on soldier loads.
ETA: I figured there'd be some people here who would take me to town for offering some advice while not buying into the TEOTWAWKI purpose of the forum. You guys are actually pretty nice
Originally Posted By wag_bag:
Regarding Marines fighting in helmand with only 3 mags...total bs, except for one smaw gunner i knew. Three rockets make up for it, though.
Regarding Marines fighting in helmand with only 3 mags...total bs, except for one smaw gunner i knew. Three rockets make up for it, though.
I'm not sure the circumstances regarding the specific personnel, their resupply methods, or the timeframe. The information was relayed to the class by a SME on soldier loads.
ETA: I figured there'd be some people here who would take me to town for offering some advice while not buying into the TEOTWAWKI purpose of the forum. You guys are actually pretty nice
5/28/2012 9:15:22 PM
Awesome, thanks for posting Joe!
5/28/2012 9:17:42 PM
Thanks for the post and the link. Good to know.
When I lived in UT, we did a lot of hiking up above 6000'. A watch w/ a barometer was crucial as often you'd be on the backside of the mountain on not see a storm coming in, but the barometer let you know when it was time to de-ass the mountain.
When I lived in UT, we did a lot of hiking up above 6000'. A watch w/ a barometer was crucial as often you'd be on the backside of the mountain on not see a storm coming in, but the barometer let you know when it was time to de-ass the mountain.
5/29/2012 10:14:18 AM
Thanks very much for the write up.
5/29/2012 2:34:34 PM
Excellent write up OP, thanks!
5/29/2012 3:02:21 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post this, greatly appreciated.
5/29/2012 3:28:14 PM
This is very valuable info, thank you for taking the time to post it!
6/1/2012 2:36:23 AM
Originally Posted By Cacinok:
Thanks for the post and the link. Good to know.
When I lived in UT, we did a lot of hiking up above 6000'. A watch w/ a barometer was crucial as often you'd be on the backside of the mountain on not see a storm coming in, but the barometer let you know when it was time to de-ass the mountain.
Thanks for the post and the link. Good to know.
When I lived in UT, we did a lot of hiking up above 6000'. A watch w/ a barometer was crucial as often you'd be on the backside of the mountain on not see a storm coming in, but the barometer let you know when it was time to de-ass the mountain.
Did you find one that worked better compared to other brands?
6/1/2012 11:35:46 AM
Thanks for the info.
6/1/2012 12:46:15 PM
Good write up. Thanks
RLTW
RLTW
6/1/2012 1:58:01 PM
This stuff is great! Dont stop here! Add stuff about your Ruck load out. I know you all have steady resupply but do you carry MREs? or some other type of food. Thanks for the info.
6/1/2012 8:00:45 PM
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If I believe correctly water is "purified" at appx. 170*. This is when water starts to boil. 212* is a vigorous boil, which is obviously easily identified and will let you know purification temp has been reached.
Originally Posted By ar-ak:
This is good stuff, thanks for taking the time to post.
I knew most of this stuff, but I didn't know this: "When wet don't strip layers, add layers but only for while stopped. ". So the idea is to leave wet layers on until you're done moving for the day? Is this because dry clothes will just get wet anyway?
Regarding water purification, water boils at about 212F at sea level and at about 194F at 10,000 feet.
This is good stuff, thanks for taking the time to post.
I knew most of this stuff, but I didn't know this: "When wet don't strip layers, add layers but only for while stopped. ". So the idea is to leave wet layers on until you're done moving for the day? Is this because dry clothes will just get wet anyway?
Regarding water purification, water boils at about 212F at sea level and at about 194F at 10,000 feet.
If I believe correctly water is "purified" at appx. 170*. This is when water starts to boil. 212* is a vigorous boil, which is obviously easily identified and will let you know purification temp has been reached.
6/1/2012 9:16:04 PM
Originally Posted By 505stevec:
This stuff is great! Dont stop here! Add stuff about your Ruck load out. I know you all have steady resupply but do you carry MREs? or some other type of food. Thanks for the info.
This stuff is great! Dont stop here! Add stuff about your Ruck load out. I know you all have steady resupply but do you carry MREs? or some other type of food. Thanks for the info.
Most of BMMC is done in an "outdoor schoolhouse" type setting. So, our ruck loadouts during much of the course were basically large 3-day packs. We were required to carry our climbing gear (60m 11mm static rope, climbing rack*, manufactured harness, 18' sling rope, and a 22' 1" webbing). We also carried an MRE, poncho liner, wet weather tops and bottoms, extra socks and teeshirt, . This was very much the "classroom equipment" required for being outside vs an actual combat loadout. All told it weighed 45-55 lbs depending on how much water you brought and if you carried any of the squad equipment.
The squad equipment was a Skedco, its attachment hardware, stove (MSR SGK, water pot, and 1 liter of fuel), full sleep system, and sleep pad. Basically what needs to be carried in the event of a real-world casualty and subsequent evac. This was all carried in parts by members of the squad in rotation.
The load wasn't a "real life" load and seemed more designed about to get students thinking about the consequences of weight. Sorry I couldn't give you a better breakdown as to what we should carry "ideally" outside of the classroom setting. There's just too much variation in mission type and unit TTPs to have students carry "real-world" loadouts in addition to the necessities of the schoolhouse environment. The course was designed to give us as leaders the tools to make informed decisions regarding terrain and soldier loads.
*Climbing rack consists of:
1 Omega SBG Belay Device
1 Aluminum "Pearabiner" Carabiner
7 Non-locking carabiners
4 24" sections of 1" tubular webbing (one used as sling for climbing equipment)
3 18' sections of 7mm utility cord
2 Steel locking carabiners
All this, a climbing rope, and a manufactured or field expedient harness is all we needed to build the various rope systems required throughout the course. The only exception being the highline which requires a 2nd tag line, and the extended elevation system which required 2 personnel's worth of equipment. When doing the Squad "SUMO" (Small Unit Mountain Operation) my15 man squad broke up gear, with 4 ropes climbing racks for the squad. The rest of us carried 2 pieces of tubular webbing, 2 lockers, and 2 non-lockers each on our harnesses. That way, when we set in fixed lines, we each still had enough webbing and biners for each of us to still clip into the lines.
6/1/2012 10:25:09 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Found the manual on Scribed
http://www.scribd.com/doc/89542719/ARMY-MOUNTAIN-WARFARE-SCHOOL-MANUAL-BASIC-MILITARY-MOUNTAINEER-COURSE-STUDENT-HANDOUT
Found the manual on Scribed
http://www.scribd.com/doc/89542719/ARMY-MOUNTAIN-WARFARE-SCHOOL-MANUAL-BASIC-MILITARY-MOUNTAINEER-COURSE-STUDENT-HANDOUT
Great post, thanks! Here's the link to the PDF version of the manual, which can be downloaded/printed without a scribd/fb account:
http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/amws/content/pdf/BMMC%20Student%20Handout.pdf
