LEO not happy with POF

Today was my second day into a three day carbine course with Mr Bill Jeans of Morrigon Consulting. I was excited since this was the first time I have had a chance to shoot my new POF P415. Right from the start of the course my new rifle had problems feeding and extracting, I was not worried about the malfunction since the gun had only 12 rounds down the barrel prior to this course. I thought a little break in time is reasonable in a new gun and applied a small amount of oil to help out the new action ( I tried to run it without oil like the manufacturer brags about) At the end of the day I had at least 200 rounds downrange with around 10 malfunctions. I took the gun home, cleaned it, and applied a light coating of oil.

Day 2 stared with simple shooting on the move drills, I began to worry a bit because I was still having feeding and extracting issues. When we broke for lunch I had a least 300 rounds downrange and so many malphs that people were asking why my $2800 gun was such a soup sandwich! I went to my Crown Vic and removed my current duty patrol rifle, a no frills pre-ban Olympic CAR-15. The lowly Olympic ran flawlessly the rest of the day while the POF was abandoned to the truck of my car.

After waiting 7 months for my POF to arrive and spending a huge amount of money I have this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. After 400+ rounds this gun should be good to go! There is no way I could use this kit on duty, it is simply NOT reliable.

The mags I used were new C products aluminum, and new steel H&K (I mostly use the H&K's). The problem was not in the mags. I even swapped out the lower for another brand and still had problems. Some of the issues I saw were rounds impacting the feed ramps without loading, failure to load a fresh round leaving an expended case still in the chamber ( no visible marks on the case), rounds impacting the front of the magazine lip forcing the bullet backwards further into the case, and having to slam the butt stock on the ground to clear the chamber of a single case (live and expended) when I was unable to run the action with the weapon at guard, this happened after the weapon discharged but failed to reset the trigger , Anyone else experiencing this or do I just have a lemon?

You might have a lemon, which isn't totally uncommon with POF or LWRC or MSAR for that matter. Personally, I would not have taken a rifle with only 12 rounds through it to a carbine class!!! Good thing you had a back up rifle in your trunk. Send it back. It sounds like it has a tight chamber, a bad extractor, or poor mag to upper receiver alignment. However, rounds impacting the inside front of the mag sound like a mag issue.

So was the case getting stuck in the chamber or just failing to eject? What ammo were you using? Was the round getting stuck on the ramp or poking the case that wasn't ejected? It is curious that you didn't describe any class 3's. Did anyone in the class inspect the rifle or offer a suggestion for the possible causes of the malfunction?

My suggestion is that you load it up with the same mags and ammo when you get home and then, pointing in a safe direction of course, hand cycle several mags. Ride the bolt carrier forward slowly while watching the bolt strip the round off the top of the mag and see where it is hitting the feed ramps. The round should never poke the inside front of the mag unless the follower is tilting.

For your extraction problems, get the "D" (Defender) ring and place it around your extractor spring. My P415 had problems out of the box but once I installed it, it's never had a problem since. As far as your feeding problems go, you might have to send it in. Is your gas piston in the correct position?

delete

I positioned the gas piston both ways and it did not make a difference. The ammo is quality Remington training ammo and my duty is Hornady TAP, I had problems with both.

Like I said, the magazines were new C-products and H&K's and I had the same problem with more than one mag. The rounds were striking both the bullet face and the rim of the case. My Oly had no problems using the same mags/ ammo. I found no problems with the magazines which is puzzling.

It looks like the POF feed ramps need to be cut and polished. I guess I can understand a rifle needing some fine tuning but when you pay this much it should be done right the first time! Makes me wonder what else needs to be "fixed"?

The expended case was stuck in the chamber when I had to bang the butt stock on the ground.

I thought a course would be the best way to break this rife in , It was a god thing I thought to bring my duty rifle as well..

delete

The new piston I believe is the same whichever way it's facing since the amount of gas flow is no longer controlled by the piston, but externally now.

Mine has/had (the upper is at POF right now) feeding issues where the bolt would stop about a quarter inch from being fully in battery. If I noticed it before pulling the trigger, I could slam the forward assist and get that round off, but if not and the hammer went forward, I'd have to drop the mag, then work the bolt to eject the round. I also had plenty of times where I'd have to slam the butt on the ground while working the charging handle because it was locked up tight.

I sent plenty of live rounds on the ground that day, and the rubber buttstock pad is cut up from having to hit it on the ground so many times.

Even after thoroughly cleaning the chamber three separate times, I was having these problems.

I'm hoping that it will be repaired and working properly when I get it back.

ETA: This occured with two brands of 55grn FMJ. Magtech, and Americal Eagle.
I also received my upper back with a very quick turnaround time. I should be trying it out Sunday, and hopefully it will run perfectly this time. I'll be trying some more Magtech, and PMC. Possibly some BVAC remanufactured also.

That shit is fucked up!

delete.

Thanks for the heads up.

Well I finished the course today with the same mags and ammo. I started with my old Olympic arms CAR-15 and it did not miss a beat. At lunch I attached the POF lower to my Oly upper and did not have a problem at all. I even took first place in the "carbine bounce" for those of you who have trained with Bill in the past. There is no doubt now, the problem is in the POF upper. I have some serious trust issues with this gear, my rifle is not a toy I play with on the weekend at the local shooting range, I can't afford to deploy sub standard kit and so far POF has failed to live up it's claims.

I'll be contacting the factory mid week. For their sake they better make it right.

I'll keep you guys posted...

A friend bought the same rifle at the same time. He reported no malfunctions at the last 40 hour carbine course he attended and he completed the course with no oil in his gun. With the exception of a few rounds down range for zero he attended the class with a new rifle.

I had similar issues with mine when I first got it, the first 40 rounds through it were Wolf (the stupid range made me use their ammo) and it didn't like that stuff at all. The next range trip was with a co-worker, I had just bought some Lake City XM193 (55gr) in bulk and those 90 rounds shot just fine. Switching in my co-worker's assorted ammo, some of it the gun liked more than others. In one box (forget the make) I ripped two casing heads off in 5 rounds, after the second one I junked the box. This was all with Magpul PMAG's.

I've taken it to the range one other time with nothing but my bulk XM193 and it eats that stuff up, that last range trip was 150-180 rounds and not a single malfunction.

I'm a little on the fence about my gun not working with crap ammo. On the one hand, it would be nice if it ate everything just fine, but then on the other hand, if it isn't running well could it be bad ammo, and not the gun's fault?

Point being, try a variety of ammo in it before you send it back, just to see if that makes any difference. If it does, you have an idea of what to do to fix it in the future, and if it doesn't, that's one more thing you can cross off the list.

Sorry to hear so many problems fellas... I have an older 1st Gen. P415 and it's been flawless so far. I tried to buy an upper parts kit for it a couple weeks ago and they told me they didn't have those for the 1st Gen. guns anymore. I was kinda bummed but they also told me if I sent in my upper they would fit it with the "new" piston parts for free. They even threw in an extra upper parts kit! I'm stoked about not having to buy it but I certainly hope the new parts work as well as the old ones did!!! Looks like all that was replaced are the actual Piston, Rod and gas-plug. I'm sure it will be fine.

My P308 has only had one mag related malfunction in 350 rounds and it shoots sub MOA. Your experience is not everyone's experience so your blanket statement about the new stuff is not accurate. POF has had questionable customer service at times and some rifles have had problems. As it has been stated on this forum ad nauseum talk to Frank if you are not getting satisfaction. There is not another rifle on the market that offers the features of the POF. The fluted Rock Creek Barrels are simply the best. Other design features not found in one package: one piece BCG, NP3 coatings, springless piston system, and heat sink barrel nut.

Seems to me that if I paid that much, I'd want it to work with all .223 and 5.56 ammunition that would fit in the magazine.

Once again, sorry to hear about the problems but I have to say again... My P415 has been flawless and I use whatever crap I can find sometimes. One time at the range there was about 20 or 30 rounds of .223 that was sitting in the "dud" can. (Our range has a metal box where you put FTF's called the "dud" can) They looked OK except the primers were barely struck. I loaded up a mag for my POF and they all fired without a hitch!

I know... I know... That's incredibly dangerous and stupid but I haven't blown-up yet... And neither has any of my rifles from doing that. I figure if there doesn't appear to be an unusual reason for the FTF and the round goes into my chamber OK I'll try it. I trust the POF to work with anything!

Call Chris at POF and send that rifle back and demand it get fixed right or give you a new one that is right.

Thats all I read lately is the old POF's are better than the new ones. That pisses me off because I put my deposit down on a 20" P308 7 months ago and hope I dont get a piece of shit.

Let us know what POF says. I'm sure they will take it back.

Sorry to hear that man.

For the price they could afford to put a few rounds down the tube before it hits the door to check function and accuracy.
They won't and that's why I am keeping the ones I have got but I won't be buying anymore.

Good luck.

I had a similar situation with my POF 415. I recently took it out to the range and had 10 FTE's out of 100 rounds, from two different types of ammo PPU and Federal, both M193 5.56 loads. All my feeding issues were related to brass failing to extract and the rifle trying to feed the next round while expended brass was still in the chamber. When I recovered the brass, I noticed unusual markings on all the casings (see pics), and many of them had the rims ripped right off the cases. There were brass shavings all over the interior of the rifle.

I wrote in an email to POF and sent pics of my brass and Chris responded very promptly and asked that I send the upper in. I sent it in, and within a week of it arriving at their factory, I had it back at my door (sent it in last week got it back today). I have heard horror stories of repairs taking a while at POF, so I was surprised to see it come back so quickly.

There was no note in the package, only a notation on the shipping e-mail I received that said they replaced the bolt and polished the chamber.

It is obvious that they test fired it before sending it back, so I am assuming that the issue has been resolved. It just came back today, so I have yet had a chance to take it out and check for myself.

If all goes well at my next range trip, I would give them a thumbs up for customer service. I have read about others having less than ideal experiences, but mine has been a good one so far (so long as the issue has been addressed). They were quick to respond to my e-mails and quick to turn my upper around. While I'm not happy to have to have had to send it in to begin with, they took care of me very quickly. The only thing I would have liked, is for them to let me know what was wrong in the first place. But again, as long as it is fixed, I'm happy.

Although, you did say there were no markings on your brass, so your issue may not be the same, I thought I would share my experience. Either way, just contact POF if you haven't already done so and I'm sure they will take care of you. I have never had any luck calling in, nobody has ever answered and the voice mail is always full when I call. However, they have always been prompt to reply to my e-mails. Usually they respond within two days, which to me is acceptable. Whatever the issue is, I hope you get it resolved quickly.

I would guess that you just had a tight chamber and an agressive polish should cure it. I had the same problem with my MSAR STG. The exractor riipped right through the cases and the stuck cases had to be rodded out.

Thanks for all the in put guys. As soon as I completed the carbine course I headed straight out for my July fishing trip. I caught a little over 30 red salmon for the freezer, smoker, and canning. We should be done processing it all tomorrow, after that I can address my rifle.

I need to find another manufacturer to supply me with an 11.5 inch piston upper, I might look into LMT since they have been around for many years. If POF fixes this upper and sends it back to me I will forever be wondering what else might go wrong with it and that is not a feeling I want to endure every time I deploy in real time. I'm sure they will give me hell about asking for a refund but I can't accept anything less.

Unfortunately, out of all the guns I've owned over the years there are only two I would trust my life with... my trusty service Glock 22C (no malfunctions EVER in 12 years with crappy range ammo and duty ammo!!!!!) and my Colt LE CAR-15A3 I used for SWAT (which regrettably I sold!!!!). I have an AK going on 1200 rounds that I have developed alot of confidence in (accuracy sucks though). Another 500 malfunction free rounds through my POF P308 and I would consider it good to go. Just look around on these forums... the search for the Holy Grail of all rifles continues daily. Give me the utimate cartridge with a platform that is super light, shoots sub MOA, and fires with sand being poured in the bolt and underwater, has a barrel that lasts 30,000 rounds with no accuracy degradation, and never malfunctions even with crappy ammo.

SD do you work for POF? It sounds like you have a stake in the company?

A patrol carbine dose not have to shoot sub MOA to be a great rifle and I don't ever pour sand into my chamber. The .223 round I shoot is mandated by my department (for now) and if I need a new barrel I can order a replacement from Oly. My patrol carbine is close to or at 1MOA and the only 2 malfunctions I remember were at -14 F with training ammo. I feel very comfortable with the combination of my G20 and CAR-15, I don't need the Holy Grail of rifles. The thing that sold me on the POF was how it did not need oil and was a snap to clean. I HATE CLEANING RIFLES! The combination of the USMC's habit of wearing out weapons with cue tip's and the M249/ M240/ and M60E3 did that to me.

I have personally had zero problems with my P415 Recon. I once had a Colt HBAR that was very picky about what it ate however.

Is there are an AR manufacturer out there that does not send out the odd lemon? Or get service calls on their rifles.

I agree if you make a big a claim, you should back it up. BUT...

Who knows the real percentages of failures requiring factory returns vs. the number of rifles a company has sold and are in circulation?

What would be the acceptable percentage? 0? 10%? more?

I love my POF, and it sucks to hear yours is a problem child.

One guy said he had done 50k worth of business with POF, which is what 25 or 30 rifles? How many were bad apples, we never did get that info.

I wish you the best as a fellow LEO but talk to the right folks at POF and I'm sure they'll make it right.

Now if they only gave away cool freebie stuff with each order or repair.

No, I don't work for POF. I just have what I would consider a fine rifle from them. It does shoot sub MOA and the only malfunction I had was mag related, not gun. Other than that it has run perfect. The point of my post is there is no perfect gun. I own an LWRC M6A2 Upper and the finish galled on the BCG after the first 150 rounds. I sent it to Robar instead of back to LWRC and have never looked back. It is a nice weapon. By the way, I have been getting my firearms finished in NP3 years before POF jumped on the bandwagon and I believe it to be an absolute necessity now.

I guess I would think if you sent it back and when it returned, you were able to fire 500 rounds of all kinds of ammo through it with no malfunctions, would you trust it then?? I had a lemon MSAR STG and after 2 times back to the factory the 3rd time I told them to give me a whole new rifle or my money back. I got a brand new rifle and it hasn't had a single malfunction in over 500 rounds without cleaning until last Saturday when a 30 round mag caused all kinds of malfunctions. Am I going to scrap it because of that?? No, but I dang sure want to make sure it is only mag related and not the firearm.

My point is I think you should give them a chance to fix it. They really are super easy to clean and run really cool. It is no lie that and NP3 surface against another NP3 surface will run forever with no lube and POF outsources this to Robar so I know they are at least getting this part right. Although if you can snag an LMT piston upper I would say go for it and send it to Robar.

Now that I think of it, it is pretty fun to own two opposing "koolaid drinker" rifles. I piss the STG guys off when I talk about my AXR and vice versa. I piss the LWRC guys off when I praise my POF and vice versa.

LWRC and Glock with NP3



POF that I personally had the barrel, BCG, Bolt and buffer tube coated in NP3 before POF made the switch.



PS90, MSAR Limited Edition that went back, Arsenal SLR-108



New STG and TPD AXR currently at Robar getting NP3 treatment

POF does stand behind our product. If you have not already contacted us, please do.

No, I'm the one standing behind your product, and I'm the one who will pay the boatmen if something go's wrong.

On the other hand I greatly appreciate your post, it takes courage to post in public with an end user who is having issues. I love the features of the POF but I'm not sure how this will turn out.

The gun was delivered to Steve at Alaska Tactical (my dealer), he will be sending it to you soon.

Respectfully,
Charles

I understand your concern that the rifle might fail you when needed most, but I've seen lots of rifles have issues. If it's a recurring problem, I hope they've fixed it. After getting it back, give it a good workout and see if it works. Everyone screws up once in a while, and everyone even has a bad batch. But if they fix them, and stop the problems from recurring, then it's no longer a problem. OTOH, if the rifle keeps screwing up, well that's another story. But give them a chance to fix it.

call POF ASAP

There customer serves is second to none in my opinion, they stand behind there rifles and will make it right.

delete

Sell it and get a LWRC, that's what I did with all my POFs, I swore by them since 2004 when I saw them at Shot Show, but have given up on them in the last year.

With you on the lwrc 's that what we swear by now top notch company. The few pofs I kept are just range guns would not even think of picking up anything pof if I needed to defend myself.

CAll Chris and Frank and they will take care of the problem.

thats a joke right? been doing that for 4 months chris is full of crap and will never let you get ahold of frank. frank is a good person but his company is beig run into the ground by crap customer service and half assed product . they need to start paying for return shipping costs .

My P308 has been a fine rifle. The crappy coating on my LWRC BCG galled the first time I fired it so I had it NP3'd. LWRC has had numerous failures with the gas keys coming loose which they have now fixed. No manufacturer is immune from an ocasional lemon or problems. Check the bullpup thread. Sounds like you had a few lemons but that doesn't make them all bad.

By the way, what is your company name again??? The crappy grammar and punctuation in your posts make you come off as high school sophomore troll.

delete

There seems to be a sub culture of POF owners who will back the company to the hilt no matter what, even turning a blind eye to obvious problems in MANY guns not just a couple here and there. SD you are lucky to have a good rifle, I wish I had your experience but I don't think attacking Rossi reflects well on you, it seems he has more experience with POF than most of us who have only one or two of their systems.


I have decided to give them a chance to fix the problem, I will put a few hundred rounds through it before it is put into service. We will see and I will report.

I can say that after owning a POF rifle for over a year with many rounds thru it, I've had only one FTE. Maybe I got one of the good ones, aside from the upper reciever grove. But I wouldn't sale or trade mine for any other ar15 on the market. It will remain my go-to rifle.

I am not affiliated with POF. I am a retired Tempe, AZ Police officer. I served on the SWAT team there from 1993 to 2000. I am not coming to the company's defense. I am just saying that not everyone shares your experience. My rifle has functioned flawlessly and the accuracy has exceeded my expectations.

Frank's cell phone is listed several places on this thread. Have you tried to call him on his cell?? The last time I did he picked right up and he was in the middle of a show. People have complained about Chris and he has been short with me several times but to my knowledge he isn't answering the phone anymore.

I am not going to say they have great customer service because they don't. I have been waiting for them to ship me a spare 308 BCG and Bolt for 3 months now and I have sent 4 emails and talked to them at the NRA show here in Phoenix all to no aviail. I am just saying my rifle works and shoots great and I believe the product to have a good combination of features no one else, including LWRC, offers. No Koolaid drinking here. Just responding to some ALWAYS and NEVER type blanket statements you are making.

That is not the case at all. I was just getting tired of Rossi basically inferring they ALL were POS when numerous posters have had positive experiences with them. There are also several recent threads where posters experienced good service. However, I have never denied that POF seems to have more than their share of lemons EDITED (At least according to this forum). Reminds me of MSAR.



I wouldn't call it an attack. When someone starts showing up in every thread bashing a product and their writing style is questionable, my suspicion starts to grow that they are what we affectionately call trolls, people that apparently are way less busy than I am and find it entertaining to argue with complete strangers on the computer. I think it is within bounds to question someone's credentials. Forums are about exchanging experiences, positive AND negative. We get it... Rossi hates POF with a passion and is going to try and disuade anyone on this forum from purchasing one. When he starts saying that any POF is not worthy of defending someone, as an owner who hasn't had any problems with my rifle, I take offense to remarks like this because they seem an attempt to enflame someone into an argument.

Fair enough SD.

thanks . shipped them about an hour ago . sent you an email your voicemail is full.

Oh god i dont want to hear this. I'm looking to get a pof

I know not every company is perfect. That's a given. Weather your buying a fire arm or electronics someone will get a bad batch. It just happens. You make so many of them, ones bound to go bad. But that being said, i've read to many negatives against pof's having issues with their AR and ESPECIALLY their customer service. Either they are getting so much complaints about their products that they don't have time to help everyone in a timely matter. That's not good. I've emailed them a few times and I don't get any response back from them. Only twice and the other times my emails were ignored.

I'm looking into buying a pof soon, but now i'm having second thoughts of getting one. I don't want to get a bad one and have to pay money to send it there and pay it to send it back. If it's a defect then the company should pay for it. I've read that it took pof literally months to return a rifle back to the customer after when it was sent back for problems that he was having with his pof.
This will be my first build and I don't know too much about AR's yet.

I've emailed lwrc at least 10 times in the last month asking various questions and each time they responded back to me quickly.

I've read people that had complaints about lwrc's, but at least they try to take care of their customers quickly and timely as possible.

I'm also on the calguns.net forum as well, people on there seem to dislike pof because of the same reasons i mention above. I first thought well everyone has some bad experiences but hearing it from many people on different forums that is VERY disconcerting.

As someone mention earlier I to don't like spending a lot of time cleaning guns and i want something quick and easy to clean. Thats what drew me to pof. But with all these complaints and the same complaints over and over, I may just buy an lwrc m6a3 upper for $1700. More money but it's worth it not to deal with the headaches of bad customer service and being charged for every little thing.
All I hear about lwrc is they have excellent customer service.

I hope pof starts improving there quality of AR and not having so many issues with their ar and their customers service because if i don't buy one this time around and i go with an lwrc, I may still consider buying a pof if they improve on their service. But time will only tell.

I am so tired of hearing people say "every manufacturer makes a bad batch once and a while", what CRAP that is when I see lots of folks having problems. When I was in the suck I NEVER had a problem with a stock Colt, nor did any of my team mates. I was in for 12 years and NEVER shot less than than expert with any M16 the Marine Corps gave me nor did I have any malfunctions in combat. My no frills Olympic AR kicks ass all over my POF at 1/4 the price!

I will hold back on my final judgement for now since my upper is back at the factory but I'm not happy with having to send my kit back when I need it in the field! I decided to give them a chance to fix the problem but if I had to do it all over again I would go straight to Noveski for a DI gun with NP3 coating.

I have to agree with you on that. As much as they charge for these rifles (twice the amount) compared to some other companies, there shouldn't be problems like this. Maybe you should try to get lwrc. I hear really good things about them. And good luck and let us know how things go with your pof. Hopefully it won't take a long ass time to get it back to you.

Oh I will let EVERY ONE know how this went, don't worry.

I already talked with POF they said they have not yet received my upper, which is odd because it was sent out two weeks ago.

A negative trait I learned about after buying the gun is the piston makes a loud slap when the gun is rocked back and forth on it's long axis. Have to keep the gun at low guard when approaching a scene or you could give away your position. Not sure if the other piston guns do this?

It's interesting to me that this happened at the Bill Jeans class as well... I was told that the only rifles to make it through the MagPul carbine class last week were the Noveske's, apparantly there were more than one POF's that didnt make it the full 3 days. (I guess the good news is that a bunch of others failed for one reason or another as well) It is concerning to me as I have several of the POF's that I view now as merely range guns also. Nothing personal towards POF, but I sort of wish I'd sunk my money into something else at this point. They are very accurate, very fun to shoot, but I hate spending this much money on something and hearing all these horror stories aobut them failing. I'm taking one of Ak Tactical's classes in October and I'm undecided if I should just shoot my POF to see if it'll crater, or just start off with the Noveske.

Shoot the POF and have the Noveske in the car. Carbine classes can be very tough. Pat Rogers has nothing but good things to say about LWRC's but he has had them fail in his classes as well. No rifle is perfect. Have you all forgotten Vietnam and how the AR-15 platform failed miserably? They required CLP and lots of cleaning. DI guns crap where they eat. They fowl and they fail. Springs give out. Extractors go bad. Heck, AK-47's break. If your POF makes it through, change it's range status to good to go. If not, fix the reason it failed or send it back or sell it. I have had problems with my MSAR STG but their customer service is second to none. Do I prefer they didn't send me a rifle that failed?? Yes! But I simply don't think they have the budget to run enough ammo through every rifle to flesh out every problem.

You must take the pof and bring another as a back up. I just bought a pof upper today.

Copyright © 1996 - 2013 :: AR15.Com LLC :: All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.