AR15.Com Archives
 Bufferless 5.56 AR Pistol (No Tube)
RDTCU  [Member]
3/9/2009 8:54:25 AM EST
ORIGINAL THREAD HERE
Just got it finished, been on "build it yourself" for a while.
seems to be some interest...

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RDTCU  [Member]
3/12/2009 6:41:53 AM EST
Bump
FIGJAM  [Member]
3/12/2009 7:26:44 AM EST
An interesting concept but would be better as an SBR with a folding stock. The buffer tube is the best part of the AR pistol with it's advantages outweighing any disadvantage or aesthetic. Without the tube, the gun is rather unwieldy with the only advantage being more easily concealed (which I don't see the use unless a professional nature).

But an interesting concept, none-the-less, I wouldn't mind seeing a less expensive ZM Weapon alternative for SBR.

video

RDTCU  [Member]
3/17/2009 11:38:00 AM EST
cerberus1  [Team Member]
3/17/2009 12:08:19 PM EST
Apply for patents now, if you haven't already.

I can see this making you a very rich man.
RDTCU  [Member]
3/17/2009 5:15:42 PM EST
...working on it...
cerberus1  [Team Member]
3/17/2009 6:37:22 PM EST
Good to know. God, I can't believe no one's done something like this before.

I know that in the DIY thread it's similarity to the ZM LR300 was mentioned, but:

1) The ZM isn't a 'side-cocker,' or however you chose to describe that characteristic.

2) The ZM isn't (AFAIK) compatible with any uppers. I'm sure that your design would require some modifications
to install but it certainly looks like something an individual could assemble at home with a few select hand tools.*

3) This seems, to me, like it would be a great deal more affordable than the ZM. I know this
doesn't have anything to do with whether it's patentable. Marketability, on the other hand....

Just a few thoughts. I wish you the best of luck and good fortune in your endeavor.

*I admit, some speculation on my part.
RDTCU  [Member]
3/17/2009 8:31:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By cerberus1:

2) The ZM isn't (AFAIK) compatible with any uppers. I'm sure that your design would require some modifications
to install but it certainly looks like something an individual could assemble at home with a few select hand tools.*

*I admit, some speculation on my part.


Yes, as long as one of those few select tools is a mill... Almost any standard upper COULD be adapted though, without changing the form factor or rail height like the ZM. Right now i'm researching what ZM, YHM and Para have patented regarding this type of system, which i believe will leave me with the charging handle relocation and takedown method as potential patents. I believe that the system would be easily adaptable to the existing ZM systems, and it looks like the only part that would have to be modifed on the ZM platform to relocate the charging handle would be some light milling to the top handguard rail which shrouds the return spring and replace the return spring keeper clip. This could also be easily adapted to some piston uppers, but for now most DI guys would be out of luck for any kind of simple retrofit.

Thanks again for the interest,
RDTCU
ALASKANFIRE  [Team Member]
3/17/2009 9:56:22 PM EST
Para is using ZM's gun so I dont know if they have their own patents or not

Does your charging handle reciprocate

Forgot to add

Mighty fine work
RDTCU  [Member]
3/18/2009 3:09:08 AM EST
No the charging handle does not reciprocate, that's a little too close to my thumb for comfort... It locks forward just like a standard CH until you pull back on it and then the handle rocks against a spring releasing the hook in the front of the handle and letting it slide back. To disassemble, you rotate the CH to the right about 90deg and pull back a couple inches. this compresses the return spring but does not engage the spring keeper or gas key, so the spring keeper is left un-retained by the spring and falls right out of the window in the recoil tube when you turn it over. Then the BCG slides out like normal.

Thanks,
RDTCU
Grievear  [Member]
3/18/2009 6:55:35 AM EST
I'll take 3.
45FMJoe  [Team Member]
3/18/2009 7:03:00 AM EST
Now that is an AR pistol I would build.
omega62  [Life Member]
3/19/2009 5:12:06 PM EST
RDTCU  [Member]
3/19/2009 5:17:28 PM EST
Yep, but i didn't feel like dropping $1000 - $1200...
For some reason I am compelled to do things just because they are challenging.
omega62  [Life Member]
3/19/2009 5:19:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Yep, but i didn't feel like dropping $1000 - $1200...
For some reason I am compelled to do things just because they are challenging.


I'm just teasin' ya!

Nice build.



RDTCU  [Member]
3/19/2009 5:25:45 PM EST
Thanks,
I've had about a dozen or so "pre-orders" were i ever to produce the pistol uppers or something like them.
Not sure what's gonna happen right now...

This thing does group suprisingly well, around 3" consistently at 100 yards with Prvi 62gr m855 (from a rest of course).
How do the Sig pistols' accuracy? I haven't read much about them.
Thefryzone  [Team Member]
3/19/2009 6:26:27 PM EST
Sweet
dave89iroc  [Team Member]
3/21/2009 10:54:51 AM EST
I'd be interested in buy ing one if you were to ever sell them
Bretshooter  [Member]
3/22/2009 1:53:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Right now i'm researching what ZM, YHM and Para have patented regarding this type of system, which i believe will leave me with the charging handle relocation and takedown method as potential patents. I believe that the system would be easily adaptable to the existing ZM systems, and it looks like the only part that would have to be modifed on the ZM platform to relocate the charging handle would be some light milling to the top handguard rail which shrouds the return spring and replace the return spring keeper clip.


Will you post your research results on the patent info? I for one would like to see what you find, as I am sure would others.

I know non-recip is safer and cooler, but a recip handle like Fulton is doing on their AR10 based gun is simple, and far easier. Perhaps some sort of ball detent/push button retaining system could be used to make the handle removal tool-less.
shrikefan  [Team Member]
3/24/2009 12:53:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bretshooter:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Right now i'm researching what ZM, YHM and Para have patented regarding this type of system, which i believe will leave me with the charging handle relocation and takedown method as potential patents. I believe that the system would be easily adaptable to the existing ZM systems, and it looks like the only part that would have to be modifed on the ZM platform to relocate the charging handle would be some light milling to the top handguard rail which shrouds the return spring and replace the return spring keeper clip.


Will you post your research results on the patent info? I for one would like to see what you find, as I am sure would others.

I know non-recip is safer and cooler, but a recip handle like Fulton is doing on their AR10 based gun is simple, and far easier. Perhaps some sort of ball detent/push button retaining system could be used to make the handle removal tool-less.



Check for any patents that Oly may have on their OA93 also.
FortyFiveAutomatic  [Team Member]
3/24/2009 1:11:30 AM EST
seems like you could also market upper receivers without the gap for a regular AR CH.

i've always thought about this, too, but never really liked the ZM option for all of the reasons stated above.

you're sitting on a gold mine, methinks. good luck!
SOC  [Team Member]
3/24/2009 1:52:30 AM EST
I had a similar idea for a folding stock mod for an AR.

The spring and retainer on the op rod as well as the BCG are exactly what I had in mind.

I hadn't thought about milling out the gas block so the piston slid into it like an AK.



I'm going to try to do mine without drilling out the gas tube hole so that limits me to a pretty thin op rod.

But It would allow me to make a kit with just a BCG/Oprod spring assembly and a gas block.

I'm also using a side charging upper but the MP5 charging handle looks cool.

I'll keep an eye out on this.

I may buy a BCG minus the key/oprod spring assembly, and a gasblock from you.
RDTCU  [Member]
3/30/2009 9:31:39 AM EST
i'll eventually get around to plugging the charging handle slot at the rear, clean it up a little. The plug would have to be attached to the lower if i don't want another loose part to lose...
:P
shrikefan  [Team Member]
3/30/2009 10:55:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
i'll eventually get around to plugging the charging handle slot at the rear, clean it up a little. The plug would have to be attached to the lower if i don't want another loose part to lose...
:P


Why not put a charging handle in there. Then you could charge it with either hand. YMMV

Can we see some pics of the "guts".

Or do you have something that may be intelectual property?

RDTCU  [Member]
3/30/2009 11:15:41 AM EST
Charging handle won't fit around the larger gas key.
you can see the guts here:
Original Thread
(same link as in original post)

BTW, working on patent paperwork and whatnot...
SOC  [Team Member]
3/31/2009 12:14:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Charging handle won't fit around the larger gas key.
you can see the guts here:
Original Thread
(same link as in original post)

BTW, working on patent paperwork and whatnot...


Could drill out the charging handle a bit, but that might weaken it too much.
shrikefan  [Team Member]
3/31/2009 12:47:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By SOC:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Charging handle won't fit around the larger gas key.
you can see the guts here:
Original Thread
(same link as in original post)

BTW, working on patent paperwork and whatnot...


Could drill out the charging handle a bit, but that might weaken it too much.


I doubt it. It looks like the "gas key/tube" takes up all the space in the charging handle slot.

RDTCU  [Member]
3/31/2009 2:51:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By SOC:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Charging handle won't fit around the larger gas key.
you can see the guts here:
Original Thread
(same link as in original post)

BTW, working on patent paperwork and whatnot...


Could drill out the charging handle a bit, but that might weaken it too much.


I doubt it. It looks like the "gas key/tube" takes up all the space in the charging handle slot.



Pretty much...
The key is 3/8" diameter so it would be strong enough to function as the return rod without flexing/fatiguing.
SOC  [Team Member]
3/31/2009 3:06:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By SOC:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Charging handle won't fit around the larger gas key.
you can see the guts here:
Original Thread
(same link as in original post)

BTW, working on patent paperwork and whatnot...


Could drill out the charging handle a bit, but that might weaken it too much.


I doubt it. It looks like the "gas key/tube" takes up all the space in the charging handle slot.



Pretty much...
The key is 3/8" diameter so it would be strong enough to function as the return rod without flexing/fatiguing.


American Spirit Arms and Ameetec Arms use a plug for side charging conversions and uppers. You might try contacting them to see if you can get just the plug.
Mad-Machinist  [Member]
4/2/2009 3:44:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
...working on it...



As far as a patent at this point....the fact that you posted extensive pictures of it on the web pretty much shoots you in the foot.....by posting it on the web that basically puts it in the public domain......
shrikefan  [Team Member]
4/2/2009 3:51:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
...working on it...



As far as a patent at this point....the fact that you posted extensive pictures of it on the web pretty much shoots you in the foot.....by posting it on the web that basically puts it in the public domain......



He has 1 year from the first posting.
RDTCU  [Member]
4/17/2009 9:45:51 AM EST
RDTCU  [Member]
4/29/2009 7:22:30 PM EST
New return spring makes it much happier! (unmodified Remington 7400 action spring)
Grievear  [Team Member]
5/1/2009 7:35:20 PM EST
Where do I swipe my Amex?

That's an awesome set up.
RDTCU  [Member]
5/11/2009 8:37:42 AM EST
Grievear  [Team Member]
5/11/2009 3:30:03 PM EST
Are you selling any of this yet? I'd like to know how much a set up like this would run.
RDTCU  [Member]
6/14/2009 9:36:02 AM EST
New pics added to album with Vortex and light rail and some obvious wear on the finishes. I knew it wouldn't stay pretty for long.. BTW, there is no more fireball :)

Album


RDTCU  [Member]
8/12/2009 6:54:02 AM EST
Bump from the past...
Grimjaw5  [Member]
12/1/2009 6:32:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Grievear:
Are you selling any of this yet? I'd like to know how much a set up like this would run.


Inquiring minds want to know....
RDTCU  [Team Member]
12/1/2009 6:35:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Grimjaw5:
Originally Posted By Grievear:
Are you selling any of this yet? I'd like to know how much a set up like this would run.


Inquiring minds want to know....

I'm planning/collecting parts for a couple different iterations, cleaning up the design and such. Only time will tell if i have the means to bring it to market in the future...

Once i get my Trust set up and my SBR paperwork back, i will be building a folding-stock lower as an alternate home for these...
CONKLE73  [Team Member]
12/1/2009 9:41:46 AM EST
Go to legal zoom and file a provisional patent….
That will “officially” give you 1yr to actually file an application for a patent.

Protect your nuts man!!!!
gerfungerpoken  [Team Member]
12/3/2009 5:18:20 PM EST
Not trying to hijack the thread, but something like this in 9mm would be really nice
RDTCU  [Team Member]
12/3/2009 5:23:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By gerfungerpoken:
Not trying to hijack the thread, but something like this in 9mm would be really nice


Bolt weight is a lot more critical on a blowback system. I suppose you COULD attempt a gas-op 9mm... I've built a gas-op .45acp upper, 9mm may be a bit wimpy for it, but it's something to consider...

Right now i'm working on designing an SBR version of this pistol in 6.8SPC with a folding stock, cleaning up the charging handle design and such...
gerfungerpoken  [Team Member]
12/3/2009 6:09:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By gerfungerpoken:
Not trying to hijack the thread, but something like this in 9mm would be really nice


Bolt weight is a lot more critical on a blowback system. I suppose you COULD attempt a gas-op 9mm... I've built a gas-op .45acp upper, 9mm may be a bit wimpy for it, but it's something to consider...

Right now i'm working on designing an SBR version of this pistol in 6.8SPC with a folding stock, cleaning up the charging handle design and such...


Would a 9mm version have to be gas operated? I'm just thinking that a 9mm MP5-ish upper would be the cat's meow. Anyways... no more hijack, and by the way your work is awesome!
RDTCU  [Team Member]
12/3/2009 6:14:07 PM EST
9mm AR's are usually blowback, but with my system, there is no room for the heavy weighted bolt that is required. HK gets by with "lighter" bolts in the MP5 because of the delayed roller-locking bolt. Don't think i'll tackle adapting that system to the AR...
RDTCU  [Team Member]
12/21/2009 10:42:02 AM EST
I'm currently gathering parts for a similar build in 6.8 (eventually to be an SBR). That way i can swap between 5.56 and 6.8 on the same SBR lower with a folding ACE stock.
Blackcsvt  [Member]
12/26/2009 9:51:47 PM EST
just waiting til you start selling them
gmor  [Member]
12/27/2009 6:48:19 AM EST
it's a great system for a sbr AR so you can use a folding stock, but for an AR pistol isn't the buffer tube a very desirable feature?
RDTCU  [Team Member]
12/27/2009 9:49:51 AM EST
Depends... I personally use the sling-tension method like you would an MP5-K, while some like to use the buffer tube as a cheek weld. My goal was compactness while maintaining at least SOME velocity with a 10"+ barrel. Now that i've worked out the bugs and know the system runs and is reliable, I AM going to build a folding stock SBR that will take this 5.56 upper or the 6.8 upper that i'm building for it...

ETA: If i DO want to use a buffer tube for a cheek weld, i can add one, I would just have to come up with a sleeve and delrin bumper to fill the tube and stop the bolt. A big factor in the recoil reduction is the delrin/rubber bumper in the buffer tube plug. The Bolt contacts the Delrin, which rests on top of a soft oring. You can tell the O-ring is compressing under impact, but it has survived a thousand or so rounds with no damage, just some flat spots on each side. This makes it a lot more pleasant to shoot, even one-handed. I'd compare it to shooting .38's out of my 4" .357...
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