Archived Posts » 59,726,163
In this thread I might make your head explode
10/25/2011 1:57:13 PM
I searched.
http://blackhillsammo.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/black-hills-ammunition-to-offer-steel-cased-9mm-40-sw-45-acp-ammunition
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/1339611344/black-hills-ammunition-45-acp-185-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-steel-case
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/1339611344/black-hills-ammunition-45-acp-185-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-steel-case
Hornady AND Black Hills now.
Even still it is $34.99 a box of 50 for the 230 gr FMJ .45 ACP ("dealer" price at Midway). but regular 'red box' BH is $41.99 a box ("dealer" price at Midway), so it is $7 a box less... It really ain't cheap.
Midway has 500 rd cases of the 185 grain HP .45 ACP on sale for $288.62 ("dealer" price) - but that is still more than 230 grain Wolf ($163), Fiocchi ($198), WWB bulk crap ($241), and Federal American Eagle ($250) .45 ACP- using Sportsman's guide non-club prices as a reference.
http://blackhillsammo.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/black-hills-ammunition-to-offer-steel-cased-9mm-40-sw-45-acp-ammunition
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/1339611344/black-hills-ammunition-45-acp-185-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-steel-case
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/1339611344/black-hills-ammunition-45-acp-185-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-steel-case
Hornady AND Black Hills now.
Even still it is $34.99 a box of 50 for the 230 gr FMJ .45 ACP ("dealer" price at Midway). but regular 'red box' BH is $41.99 a box ("dealer" price at Midway), so it is $7 a box less... It really ain't cheap.
Midway has 500 rd cases of the 185 grain HP .45 ACP on sale for $288.62 ("dealer" price) - but that is still more than 230 grain Wolf ($163), Fiocchi ($198), WWB bulk crap ($241), and Federal American Eagle ($250) .45 ACP- using Sportsman's guide non-club prices as a reference.
10/25/2011 2:34:39 PM
Why weren't all of these American companies thinking about this a few years ago, when brass was scarce, and loaded pistol ammo in some calibers like .380acp almost nonexistent?
Now that a lot of brass cased pistol ammo is cheaper than the aluminum cased stuff, charging that much for steel cased ammo doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
When you go to the ranges, especially the outdoor ones, you do see a lot of steel cases on the ground, but most of those are rifle cases.
Can't blame them if they sell a lot, i guess. They will all make a nice profit, I'm sure.
Now that a lot of brass cased pistol ammo is cheaper than the aluminum cased stuff, charging that much for steel cased ammo doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
When you go to the ranges, especially the outdoor ones, you do see a lot of steel cases on the ground, but most of those are rifle cases.
Can't blame them if they sell a lot, i guess. They will all make a nice profit, I'm sure.
10/25/2011 11:31:35 PM
I understand the Hornady steel cased Rifle ammo, because its loaded with very good bullets and powder.
It allows people to practice with quality loads for cheaper than the similar brass ammo.
But for pistol ammo I dont see the benefit, cheap Fedral/Winchester ect... is fine for practice imo
Heck you can find Speer lawman, which is a little hotter then normal to replicate Gold Dots for cheaper than the BH or hornady steel handgun ammo.
It allows people to practice with quality loads for cheaper than the similar brass ammo.
But for pistol ammo I dont see the benefit, cheap Fedral/Winchester ect... is fine for practice imo
Heck you can find Speer lawman, which is a little hotter then normal to replicate Gold Dots for cheaper than the BH or hornady steel handgun ammo.
10/26/2011 7:54:20 AM
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
I understand the Hornady steel cased Rifle ammo, because its loaded with very good bullets and powder.
It allows people to practice with quality loads for cheaper than the similar brass ammo.
But for pistol ammo I dont see the benefit, cheap Fedral/Winchester ect... is fine for practice imo
Heck you can find Speer lawman, which is a little hotter then normal to replicate Gold Dots for cheaper than the BH or hornady steel handgun ammo.
I understand the Hornady steel cased Rifle ammo, because its loaded with very good bullets and powder.
It allows people to practice with quality loads for cheaper than the similar brass ammo.
But for pistol ammo I dont see the benefit, cheap Fedral/Winchester ect... is fine for practice imo
Heck you can find Speer lawman, which is a little hotter then normal to replicate Gold Dots for cheaper than the BH or hornady steel handgun ammo.
That's part of what confused me. I have a variety of .45 ACP, ranging from very expensive to handloads (mine). There's a wide-range of "service ammunition" (or "plinking") 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP out there that all shoots to point of aim (if you do your part) that is far less expensive.
If BH marketed this as premium-grade "match" ammo in steel cases, that would be one thing.
10/26/2011 2:40:25 PM
Well, I assume it is "Match" ammo, just like the rifle ammo.
I just dont see the benefit of match ammo for pistol shooting. Maybe some do, but I imagine its a very small segment of the pistol shooting population.
How much more accurate is match pistol ammo than inexpensive FMJ like Winchester/Federal/Speer?
I just dont see the benefit of match ammo for pistol shooting. Maybe some do, but I imagine its a very small segment of the pistol shooting population.
How much more accurate is match pistol ammo than inexpensive FMJ like Winchester/Federal/Speer?
10/26/2011 5:36:52 PM
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
Well, I assume it is "Match" ammo, just like the rifle ammo.
I just dont see the benefit of match ammo for pistol shooting. Maybe some do, but I imagine its a very small segment of the pistol shooting population.
How much more accurate is match pistol ammo than inexpensive FMJ like Winchester/Federal/Speer?
Well, I assume it is "Match" ammo, just like the rifle ammo.
I just dont see the benefit of match ammo for pistol shooting. Maybe some do, but I imagine its a very small segment of the pistol shooting population.
How much more accurate is match pistol ammo than inexpensive FMJ like Winchester/Federal/Speer?
NRA 'bullseye' .45 shooters often handload 'match' ammo, but my recollection was that the idea was to get a round that performed ballistically like GI 230 grain FMJ with less recoil - thus 185 grain semi-wadcutters, etc.
And .38 AMU / .38 Special in 1911 shooters would work up loads that gave them mild recoil and functioned in their particular gun.
There is a NSN and DODDAC for Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, Match, M1911 that the military reserved for competition but I never saw it at the Fifth Army matches.
10/27/2011 2:18:05 PM
Originally Posted By ODA_564:
NRA 'bullseye' .45 shooters often handload 'match' ammo, but my recollection was that the idea was to get a round that performed ballistically like GI 230 grain FMJ with less recoil - thus 185 grain semi-wadcutters, etc.
And .38 AMU / .38 Special in 1911 shooters would work up loads that gave them mild recoil and functioned in their particular gun.
There is a NSN and DODDAC for Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, Match, M1911 that the military reserved for competition but I never saw it at the Fifth Army matches.
Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:
Well, I assume it is "Match" ammo, just like the rifle ammo.
I just dont see the benefit of match ammo for pistol shooting. Maybe some do, but I imagine its a very small segment of the pistol shooting population.
How much more accurate is match pistol ammo than inexpensive FMJ like Winchester/Federal/Speer?
Well, I assume it is "Match" ammo, just like the rifle ammo.
I just dont see the benefit of match ammo for pistol shooting. Maybe some do, but I imagine its a very small segment of the pistol shooting population.
How much more accurate is match pistol ammo than inexpensive FMJ like Winchester/Federal/Speer?
NRA 'bullseye' .45 shooters often handload 'match' ammo, but my recollection was that the idea was to get a round that performed ballistically like GI 230 grain FMJ with less recoil - thus 185 grain semi-wadcutters, etc.
And .38 AMU / .38 Special in 1911 shooters would work up loads that gave them mild recoil and functioned in their particular gun.
There is a NSN and DODDAC for Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, Match, M1911 that the military reserved for competition but I never saw it at the Fifth Army matches.
Love the SWC when shooting for tight groups
10/27/2011 2:29:24 PM
Originally Posted By Lazyshooter:
Why weren't all of these American companies thinking about this a few years ago, when brass was scarce, and loaded pistol ammo in some calibers like .380acp almost nonexistent?
Now that a lot of brass cased pistol ammo is cheaper than the aluminum cased stuff, charging that much for steel cased ammo doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
When you go to the ranges, especially the outdoor ones, you do see a lot of steel cases on the ground, but most of those are rifle cases.
Can't blame them if they sell a lot, i guess. They will all make a nice profit, I'm sure.
Why weren't all of these American companies thinking about this a few years ago, when brass was scarce, and loaded pistol ammo in some calibers like .380acp almost nonexistent?
Now that a lot of brass cased pistol ammo is cheaper than the aluminum cased stuff, charging that much for steel cased ammo doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
When you go to the ranges, especially the outdoor ones, you do see a lot of steel cases on the ground, but most of those are rifle cases.
Can't blame them if they sell a lot, i guess. They will all make a nice profit, I'm sure.
While copper and brass prices went up, it wasn't really that much of a brass shortage.
The ammo problem was a production bottleneck, with so much of it going to fill military orders for Iraq/Afghanistan/AWOT, and some big national orders to Russia to re-arm Iraq and Afghanistan's new militaries etc. Syria also made an epic order from Russia which put the squeeze on Tula, Barnaul, Ulyanovsk, and Kimosk etc. So U.S. makers switching to steel wouldn't have helped at all, when the machines were all busy cranking out 5.56 and some 9mm on three shifts 24/7.
Not to mention that switching to steel would require different machines or dies, which would have just slowed things down further, assuming the factories at ATK/Federal and elsewhere were willing to divert time to filling commercial orders rather than .gov ones.
Then the disruption played catch-up for several years of back-orders that went domino-style, compounded by the '08 "Obama Panic" that hit the U.S. arms scene. And ammo prices actually have been "dropping", except the number on the tag stays the same, it's just that your dollars are worth less than a few years earlier.
Add to that, the makers and wholesalers trying to enjoy the higher prices as long as possible, until the competition among various retailers whittles prices back which takes several months or years to reach bottom as well.
It's like gasoline. The bottlenecks in our U.S. refining capacity have a lot more to do with the pump price, than the market price of crude does.
10/28/2011 8:42:45 PM
I'm going to take a guess at this and say that the steel cased BH ammo is still going to group well at 50 yards, while all the other brands you listed won't. I've gone through about 6k rounds of various BH loads in both rifle and pistol, and the one thing they have going for them over almost anyone else is consistancy in QA\QC. Pretty much any brand, including Wolf, will group well at 25 yards. I've tried WWB, Magtech, S&B, etc, and at 50 yards and I'd be luckey to gold the black, if that. What I don't understand is Midway sells the brass cased blue box 230 gr for $6 less than the steel cased BH, so why would someone would pay more for the steel cased stuff?
