Tell Me About This Luger

Tell me about this Luger I recentely aquired:

Wow! That is an odd bird. I'd like to see a pic of the back strap to see if it was a 1906 AE originally. The barrel has an Artillery rear sight, but has been shortened to Navy length. Is the gun all matching? That is the last two digits of the serial number? Looks like it was reworked, also looks like the head space may be a bit wide as well. Looking at the pic closer I just noticed the Mauser hump on the back. This is definitely not original as it has parts spanning 40 years! The frame is WWII vintage the upper is from a 1906 American Eagle and he barrel is a chopped Artillery with a tall front sight soldered on. How much did you pay and what was the story you were given?

Backstrap

I got it free.
I posted the story on the Luger picture thread. It was given to me by one of my parent's neighbors (who I have know my entire life). The guy who last owned it, died several years ago (WWII combat vet, Bronze Star). He has owned it for many years prior. He gave a friend some money (guy was in financial trouble, sort of a loan) and the friend gave him this gun. This is starting to sound like I made a big mistake in taking this gun. I had my choice between this and a standard issue Luger that the neighbor actually captured himself. It was very clean, marked 1936. Holster was in very good contion, two matching magazines, cleaning stuff, original ammo still loaded in the mags. It was the first centerfire handgun I ever fired when I was about 10 or 12 years old (early 1970s). I had my choice of either one and I chose this one thinking it was an artillary model.
I found it interesting that it was assembled wrong, but it was very clean and nicely lubricated. I woudl be willing to bet that it was sitting in this guy's basement for fifty years.

Ok, I don't know much about Lugers, so you will have to walk me through this:
On the front of the frame, just under the barrel is a four digit number ending in 82. The takedown lever is marked 82, The plate on the left side of the gun is marked 82, just to the right of that plate in a slot is marked 82, the rear of the toggle just below the rear sight is marked 90, on the left side of the front sight base if you are looking straight down on the gun from the top is marked 33.

"58" on the rear sight



"961" Magazine floor plate



Frontstrap



"Germany on right side of barrel just beneath the rear sight.



"33" on top right of front sight base



Obviously, the left side "82"


"90" just below rear sight. Note that this has a standard rear sight as well as the "artillary" rear sight.

Random images hopefully to provide more information for ID

Based on the difference in the parts numbering, I'm betting it's a parts gun from some armory in the former Iron Curtain. Someone please correct or inform me on this, but isn't the slide a commercial make?



If this indeed a bastard put-together, at least you'll have fun with it at the range. No one else will have one just like it.

I don't know, but I would say that is highly unlikely.

The guy I got it from had it LONG before the end of the cold war. At least that was always the impression that I got.

In addition, there are no import marks on the gun. It seems to make sense that if it was put together behind the iron curtin, it would have had to come out after the fall of the Soviet Block. You would think that if that was the case the gun would have import marks.

I am sure the whole thing is commercial. I don't see any kind of military markings on the gun. It has the American Eagle on it. Or I guess I should say that I think the whole thing is commercial. I thought from the first day that I got it that it was a gun sold commercially in the US. Now I am wondering if it was some kind of custom creation put together out of parts ? The guy I got it from was NOT a gun guy. He was a combat vet and owned guns but wasn't "into" guns. He absolutely wouldn't have had a gunsmith put this together. I don't know who he got it from but I was under impression he had it for a very long time. I know the first time I saw it was probably at least 20 years ago and I felt at the time that he had the gun since not long after the war. I may be wrong on that however. I have a couple more Lugers at home that are military Lugers. I will look at them tomorrow and see how they are marked. I know the toggle on them matches the numbers on the rest of the gun. I didn't look at the front sight to see how it is marked. I also remember seeing military proof marks on them (I think). I will have to see where they are and double check that there arn't any like them on this gun.

Then we come to the holster. If this was just something put together out of parts, how does this explain the holster ?

Did the original American Eagle (I think I am using that term correctly) use all matching parts ?

The main thing that I know is a parts mismatch is the toggle and the mag. I don't know what the number on the sights represents: are those supposed to be numbered to the gun or do those numbers signify something else ?

What about the stamping on the barrel: "Germany". Would that have been on a military barrel ? Like if they cut down an Artillary Model barrel or used a Navy Model barrel would it be stamped "Germany" ? That is actually the first thing that I noticed when I first got the gun that made me realize this was not what I thought it was. I don't know anything about Lugers but it didn't seem like a military weapon would have the word Germany stamped on it. That seemed commercial to me ?????

Thanks for the reply.

Originally Posted By 444: I got it free.

You suck...................

Originally Posted By 444: What about the stamping on the barrel: "Germany". Would that have been on a military barrel ? Like if they cut down an Artillary Model barrel or used a Navy Model barrel would it be stamped "Germany" ? That is actually the first thing that I noticed when I first got the gun that made me realize this was not what I thought it was. I don't know anything about Lugers but it didn't seem like a military weapon would have the word Germany stamped on it. That seemed commercial to me ?????

Probably the best thing is to take it to some gun shows for the Luger crowd to give their .o2 on what it is, IMO. Regardless, it is a cool looking piece, IMO.

Originally Posted By 444: In addition, there are no import marks on the gun. It seems to make sense that if it was put together behind the iron curtin, it would have had to come out after the fall of the Soviet Block. You would think that if that was the case the gun would have import marks. The GERMANY marking is the import mark I am sure the whole thing is commercial.The DWM Toggle and 1906 AE upper are commercial, the frame is military1939-1942 I don't see any kind of military markings on the gun.Look at the adjustable rear sight, the mark behind GERMANY is a military proof mark It has the American Eagle on it. Or I guess I should say that I think the whole thing is commercial.No I thought from the first day that I got it that it was a gun sold commercially in the US. Lugers had many variations, but none like this from the factory.Now I am wondering if it was some kind of custom creation put together out of parts? Yes it is.The guy I got it from was NOT a gun guy. He was a combat vet and owned guns but wasn't "into" guns. He absolutely wouldn't have had a gunsmith put this together. I don't know who he got it from but I was under impression he had it for a very long time. I know the first time I saw it was probably at least 20 years ago and I felt at the time that he had the gun since not long after the war. I may be wrong on that however. I have a couple more Lugers at home that are military Lugers. I will look at them tomorrow and see how they are marked. I know the toggle on them matches the numbers on the rest of the gun. I didn't look at the front sight to see how it is marked. I also remember seeing military proof marks on them (I think).Military P08's were only proofed on the right side of the upper(left on very early guns)I will have to see where they are and double check that there aren't any like them on this gun. Please re read my original post. This gun is a parts gun without a doubt. The Upper receiver is from a 1906 American Eagle gun and the barrel is a cut down Artillery and the frame from a Mauser WWII gun. Then we come to the holster. If this was just something put together out of parts, how does this explain the holster ? Artillery holster with odd finish Did the original American Eagle (I think I am using that term correctly) use all matching parts ? Mostly, commercial guns were numbered on all parts save the upper receiver, safety bar, sear bar, grips The main thing that I know is a parts mismatch is the toggle and the mag. I don't know what the number on the sights represents: are those supposed to be numbered to the gun or do those numbers signify something else ? The magazine is a late model FXO type 3 used in the byf marked guns What about the stamping on the barrel: "Germany". Would that have been on a military barrel ? Like if they cut down an Artillary Model barrel or used a Navy Model barrel would it be stamped "Germany" ? Remember the Germans lost the war. Many Lugers were exported to the USA. Regulations in the US required that all foreign goods be marked with the country of originThat is actually the first thing that I noticed when I first got the gun that made me realize this was not what I thought it was. I don't know anything about Lugers but it didn't seem like a military weapon would have the word Germany stamped on it. That seemed commercial to me ????? Thanks for the reply.

Some pics of where your parts came from. These are from my personal collection.
1906 AE


1923 Commercial showing import mark


1917 DWM Artillery


1920 Commercial Navy


1940 42 code Mauser

It's a good thing you didn't pay anything for it, because that thing is a gigantic cluster-fuck.

Originally Posted By STG77: It's a good thing you didn't pay anything for it, because that thing is a gigantic cluster-fuck.

Wow.
Thanks.
Very insightful and informative post.
You certainly impressed me with your knowlege of the subject.

if you want to sell i may interested

i buy name yor price[

Originally Posted By BobCole: Originally Posted By 444: Originally Posted By STG77: It's a good thing you didn't pay anything for it, because that thing is a gigantic cluster-fuck. Wow. Thanks. Very insightful and informative post. You certainly impressed me with your knowlege of the subject.

That is an example of the typical moron that has nothing to add, and no knowlege of the subject, but a HUGE desire to post.
The bane of anything productive with on-line gun forums.

Originally Posted By 444: That is an example of the typical moron that has nothing to add, and no knowlege of the subject, but a HUGE desire to post.

Well, maybe he didn't mean it like that? Maybe he meant it was a good thing you had no $$$ invested in it as you wouldn't recoup your investment? Not to put words into his mouth, but sometimes what we write isn't always what we mean.

But it was still funny when I read your response..............

Originally Posted By 444: Originally Posted By STG77: It's a good thing you didn't pay anything for it, because that thing is a gigantic cluster-fuck. Wow. Thanks. Very insightful and informative post. You certainly impressed me with your knowlege of the subject.

Actually, he's right. The thing is a monstrosity.

You have a chopped artillary barrel on an upper reciever with another rear sight on it. What you have is at best a shooter, at worst something that may be poorly headspaced and fitted and unuseable as a firearm.

It was fairly common after WWI to modify Lugers and import them into the US commercially...Germany had to pay it's war debt somehow, and with the Treaty of Versaills, they couldn't keep all the Lugers anyway.

Real artillary Lugers don't have a rear sight on the toggle; it's on the barrel. Having one on the barrel and on the toggle is a huge red flag. The "GERMANY" stamps are definitily import stamps. At that point all the matching numbers, stamps, straw, etc in the world won't salvage a piece as far as collectability goes.

If you want to shoot it, I would get it checked out by a competent gunsmith who knows Lugers before even chambering a round. Otherwise...you could sell it as a curiosity or an example of what to not do to a Luger, or as a shooter, but it'll never be a collectors piece by any stretch.

As I have an artillary Luger as well as having had a few others over the years, take this not as an expert's advice, but as a somewhat knowledgable amature.


And STG77 knows a hell of a lot more about them I do; as I recall he's a huge collector. (Collection size, not body size )

Edited to add I don't remember actually if it was STG77 or someone else here I just remember they had numbers in their nick...

I think your referring to me.

Part of my collection.

Is the Crest Imperial german or is it American Eagle??

Originally Posted By bogg: Is the Crest Imperial german or is it American Eagle??

You can see in the pics that it is an American Eagle on the barrel ring.

@ P08

I counted 33 !!

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