Looking for input on a ML for hunting

I can only offer advice regarding part of your question since I haven't personally owned the ML's you are considering (I have a T/C Encore). As far as what to look for when buying a used ML...the barrel. Blackpowder is corrosive as hell and there are ALOT of people (my BIL is one) that don't do an adequate job of cleaning a ML after shooting. Breech plugs are also neglected but they are easily replaced. I would also ask questions from the owner as to what loadings he/she shot out of the ML. Most modern ML are safe with up to 150 gr of powder but remember that pellets aren't the same as loose powder. If the previous owner shot sabots you may see a build up of plastic in the rifling but that is easily removed with proper cleaning.

Good luck with your decision. ML hunting is almost as addicting as bowhunting............almost

Loyalist arms would not be my first choice.

I understand the appeal of something you might use in local reenactment and the velocity loss between a 24" and 33" barrel is minimal. But that said a 2 band Enfield rifled musket or a Remington Zouave are great hunting arms. Not overly heavy very accurate, useful sight radius but not overly long. And a .58 gr minie ball in the 500-525 grain range on top of 80 grains or so of FFG is a very effective game stopper. Plus, by design, rifled muskets with minie balls are very quick loading and paper cartridges are easy to make for them.

In any case it's probably a minority opinion but for hunting with a traditional muzzle loader, a shortish rifled musket is hard to beat. And if you go with an in-line system, optics, etc, then it really isn't muzzle loading hunting anymore even if it's legal in a particular state.

I own both an cva wolf in-line and 2 hawken rifles.

If you state allows you to use an in-line i recommend going with it since its easy to put optics on it. Which will give you longer shots. You can easier get 100-150 yards with one and they are very accurate. I purchased a cva package because i wasn't too sure if i wanted to spend big bucks on another muzzlerloader that i would use for one week out of the hunting season.

The inline was a lot more accurate than i thought it would be. The first year i had it i shot a doe at 95 yards with the powerbelt. A huge a hole right behind the shoulder and blood loss was a lot; doe ran 5 yards and plowed into the dirt doa.

The hawken style is harder to place a scope on it and with iron sights you could get a 100 yard shot but with my older eyes i wouldn't push it so far.

The in-line is easier to clean since you can take the breech plug off and clean from the breach though, where with the hawken yo have to do it through the front of the barrel.


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encore

+1

If you got $700 to spend on a muzzle loader for hunting get the TC Encore.

1st let me say thanks for the responses so far!

I have a Remington 700ML. I don't have any complaints with it, but if I was starting from scratch, and it's legal to do so, I'd probably go with one of the models that you can use smokeless powder in.

That said, I do like my 700. One thing I'm glad I did with it is used a removable mount for the scope so I can remove it for cleaning. The black powder has eaten away the finish on the bottom of the scope and I wouldn't have been able to clean it as well if I couldn't take it off.

The NRA museum has a repeating muzzleloader where the lock slides backwards over 12 flash holes. It's a very old design but it's essentially the same approach that is taken with the Metalstorm and it's sequential electronic ignition of superposed loads. That however does not make a metalstorm system "traditional".

Similarly, the invention of inline ignition systems and optical sights 150 years ago did not mean they were in common use for putting meat on the table. Nor does it make modern in line ignition muzzle loaders with optical sights "traditional". Purists will argue that percussion caps are for sissies and if it's not a flint lock it's probably not traditional enough. But that's a little extreme.

Personally I think you lose the flavor of hunting in the pre cartridge era when you add sights and deviate from a more common side hammer flintlock or percussion system. And in that regard a modern muzzle loader is just an end around to add one more tag/season per year but isn't really the same as hunting with a traditional ML.

Go the traditional route. Much more satisfying in the end, in my humble opinion. The modern inlines are basically a tool to meet the regulations for a particular season. They're not particularly fun to shoot. There is no romance to them. Once you've found a hunting load and played with it a little bit, you'll use it a couple times a year.

Again, that's just my opinion.

If I were in your shoes, just starting out, I would look into a Lyman Great Plains rifle, percussion, in .54 caliber. That is a rifle that will grow on you, and the sickness will spread, and before long you'll be of the opinion that smokeless powder is just a fad.

Listen to this man, he speaks the truth.

If you want a tool to extend deer season, my first choice is a Savage 10MLII, if smokeless is legal in your state, and second choice would be a used Knight MK85. My dad has a Knight DISC that works well, too.

If you want something fun, get a T/C Hawken in .50 caliber.

Me personally, I just in the last year have re-taken a desire in traditional muzzleloading, but I doubt it ever influences the way I hunt deer too much.

I have hunted with (2) TC Omegas and a Knight Disc Extreme. The two Omegas shot different bullets with different powder charges with different max velocity and accuracy. Plan on about $100.00 to $200.00 in bullets and powder combinations. 1st Omega used a Dead Center double sabot 195 gr and burned 150 grains of T7 with optimal trajectory and speed. 2nd Omega could accurately burn only 110 grains of Blackhorn with a 245 gr barnes. Knight disc extreme .52 takes 117 grains of Blackhorn's maximum 120 gr before throwing the lands but is freaking accurate as you can get with any of 2 available bullets- 25 cents at 200 yds once you get the combination right. This will save you alot of time: 1) get a digital scale particularly for the blackhorn and the loose BPs. Weigh weigh weigh. Or use pellets- IMR whitehots or triple seven. Pellets do not provide charge flexibility and full accuracy development. I use Blackhorn because it is IMPERVIOUS to ambient moisture and I can leave my ML charged between hunts. The Savage ML-10 is designed to be shot with smokeless powder or BP but you will still have range work. Start at 90-100 grains. Try several different bullet weights and group them at the same powder load. only then increase your powder charge in 10 grain equivalent increments until you lose the grouping. One or more bullets will show up more accurate up to a point. Once you maxed the charge per bullet back it off until it tightens up. 1-11/2 with the Omega is completely possible. Tip: get some 2000 grit wet dry sand paper and run it down the barrel a few times. I did that and had 50% tighter groups. My experience is with the Barnes and Dead Center bullets but there are many to choose from. I like the Barnes because of the very tight gas seal with the sabot. SHOOT ALL YOUR REGISTERS THROUGH A CLEAN BARREL EACH AND EVERY TIME, UNTIL you get your desired accuracy and then try following shots to see what you can anticipate in accuracy change- and there will be some guranteed. Use bore lube prior to laoding- each and every shot. There are plenty of excellent rifles to choose from but it all gets sorted out at the range after many hours and $200.00 bucks. furthest deer harvest was with a Omega .50 at 170 yds. Use a hot CCI or Winchester primer and don't worry about the small rifle primers .32 acp or others. light it fast and it goes fast enough. good luck to you and if you listen to this you will save time, money and have more shooting satisfaction. If choosing between a .45 and a .50 I suggest the .50- way more useful. The .52 kick ass, yours included.

I appreciate everyone's input. A final decision has proven much more difficult that I initially thought. Some of the really older MLs 'float my boat' are too rich for my blood (1.5K +) So, I am still undecided as I troll the major auction boards looking for a deal. I came across an article on a double barrel that I may add to the auction trolling list - has anyone here has used the Traditions Express O/U (REX100)?

You can get a traditional muzzleloader for much less than $1,500.00. If you check the pawn shops you should be able to find a TC Hawken for around $100.00. I have bought and sold several that I found. The one single thing about traditional muzzleloaders that either makes it fun or makes you want to throw it into a lake is the lock. A cheap rifle with a cheap lock will cause a large amount of aggravation.
The TC Hawkens and Lyman GPRs are good, well made rifles with good reliable locks. If your main purpose is hunting look for one in .54 caliber. A .50 will take deer, but the .54 is better- which surprises people since it sounds like it isn't much bigger. If you check the weight of the roundballs in .50 and .54 you will see that the .54 is heavier- of course, and has more mass. That makes a difference in both distance and energy. Roundballs do not expand- much, so you need to deliver as much energy as possible.
The modern inlines usually cost about the same as a frontstuffer, but have no personality. They are just to extend a hunting season a little. A traditional rifle is just more fun too.
I have a semi-custom flintlock in the Tennessee mountain style made by Jack Garner that I don't spend much time with. I haven't had much time to shoot anything lately and that needs to change that soon. I really like a traditional rocklock, but they do have a slightly steeper learning curve. To me that's part of the fun. A percussion "caplock" is a little more forgiving and simpler, and for a hunting rifle might make more sense for you. It all depends on how much time you want to put into the sport.

Jim

Years ago, when MS went to straight-walled cartridges for its primitive weapons season, caplocks got really cheap here, but they're pretty well dried up now here. I'd love to find a Hawken at that price (like......let me know if you want to ship one near that price).

OP,

Muzzleloading doesn't have to be complicated. If you want a Savage in-line to hunt with (with no smoke or messy cleanup), you can pretty well bet on deer-killing accuracy from VVN110 or AA5744 and any good 250-grain bullet (I like the hornady sst-ml) in a MMP sabot.

With a good conventional (read: smoky) inline (I'm still a fan of Knight MK-85's if you can find a used one that's clean) you can also expect sufficient accuracy with 100 grains of pyrodex and that same bullet. Don't fret over the last little bit of accuracy - a 2 MOA load will do fine; you're never gonna shoot much past 200 yards anyway.

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