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 So does the FBI or ATF ever visit your home, just to say Hey what you got in there?
Slayfan21  [Member]
6/6/2011 9:58:51 PM
Just wondering, I know you dont give up your 4th amend. rights but do they really look into your shit cuz you own a class 3 item, Im building a SBR.
GeneralPurpose  [Member]
6/6/2011 10:05:21 PM
Oh yeah, all the time. I don't own a dog so they killed both of my neighbor's dogs. And kids. Then they confiscated my SBR because it's legally registered, and only criminals legally register guns and pay $200.

Slayfan21  [Member]
6/6/2011 10:09:12 PM
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.
CAR-AR-M16  [Team Member]
6/6/2011 10:13:08 PM
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
Just wondering, I know you dont give up your 4th amend. rights but do they really look into your shit cuz you own a class 3 item, Im building a SBR.


I got my first NFA item 20 years ago. In all that time I have never been "visited" by any agency nor do I know of anyone who has. That is a myth.
panzersergeant  [Life Member]
6/6/2011 10:14:13 PM
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.


I'm curious about this as well as I plan on getting a can soon. Has anybody with a class III license ever had a visit from the man?
GeneralPurpose  [Member]
6/6/2011 10:15:29 PM
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.


This topic belongs in GD. It's been addressed hundreds of times on this site. I answered your question; you need a sense of humor.
TitleII  [Member]
6/6/2011 10:20:40 PM
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.


No, they look BEFORE you own a NFA toy.

I know of one and only one incident (and I have looked hard) that an agent went to someone's home. The short story it this. A rouge dealer was doing some under the table stuff. An agent called a NFA owner and explained the situation with the owner and said he would like, with the owners permission, to match the serial number on a suppressor with the form 4. The owner said the agent was in and out in less than 5 minutes with no other questions.

Other than that one incident, I know of no one who has had a agent ask to see their NFA item, unless they have called attention to themselves. Don't post illegal items and illegal transfers on Gun Broker!!

I have had a concealed weapons license since 1987 and NFA items for a long time. I am still waiting for the first time that I have been asked for a license or a form. And, I have shoot in the presence of LEOs and I have inadvertently exposed in front of LEOs. Don't act stupid and you will be golden!

Just Sayin!

Slayfan21  [Member]
6/6/2011 10:23:59 PM
I have humor, buddy

I have only had to show my CCDW once to a LEO, I was pulled over and he asked me if I had any firearms, I said yes,(his eyes lit up like he was gonna get a bust) as I handed him my DL and CC Permit he was fine after that.

More info on above, my 45 was in the console, which is illegal in KY without a CCDW, BTW It was digging into my side so I put it in there, not my normal place, Before any smart ass comments
TitleII  [Member]
6/6/2011 10:26:01 PM
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.


I'm curious about this as well as I plan on getting a can soon. Has anybody with a class III license ever had a visit from the man?


Over 10,000 posts and you still think there is such a thing as a Class III license to own a can. Don't buy a can or you will end up in trouble!

It's late and I have been drinking so don't take that personal!

Just Sayin!



echo_5  [Team Member]
6/6/2011 10:44:03 PM
not yet....
Bubbles  [Team Member]
6/6/2011 10:44:21 PM
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Has anybody with a class III license ever had a visit from the man?

A Form 1 or Form 4 is not a "class III license". "The man" will not come knocking on your door just because you have a tax stamp.

Having said that, I do have an FFL/SOT and occasionally will get visits from folks at the ATF.
Shermantor-AR15  [Member]
6/7/2011 8:53:19 AM
Since this question gets asked about once every few months, I remember someone posting about how the ATF did goto homes of those that had silencers around the DC area back when the DC sniper was randomly shooting people.

I'm sure the orginal poster of that information will come and give more details about it.
Dedeye  [Member]
6/7/2011 8:54:36 AM
I have been visited by ATF once, but it was in relation to a specific investigation that was being conducted. The visit was cordial and brief, since I was 100% legal.
damcv62  [Life Member]
6/7/2011 12:47:13 PM
Nope. Never. And won't ever happen. Short of me doing something stupid that they would pay me a visit for otherwise.
cade  [Member]
6/7/2011 2:52:46 PM
Slightly off topic but I was actually arrested and charged with carrying a concealed weapon and violating a knife ordinance. The next morning when my case was dismissed, the reason stated was not that the cop was an idiot who could not read an in state concealed carry permit, but it did state that the victim, plantiff or whatever did not appear.

I was stopped for another reason and volunteered to the officer that I had a gun in a holster in my pocket. Last time I do that.

Has anybody gotten shit from an officer who did not understand the tax stamp?
panzersergeant  [Life Member]
6/7/2011 3:06:47 PM
Originally Posted By TitleII:
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.


I'm curious about this as well as I plan on getting a can soon. Has anybody with a class III license ever had a visit from the man?


Over 10,000 posts and you still think there is such a thing as a Class III license to own a can. Don't buy a can or you will end up in trouble!

It's late and I have been drinking so don't take that personal!

Just Sayin!



My ignorance vis-a-vis NFA items is plain for all to see. That is why I come here.

In all the years I have been collecting and shooting guns I have never had an interest in owning an NFA item due to the hoops you have to jump through... until recently.

I visit Palmetto State Armory a couple of times a month and they sell suppressors. So now I want one. Since all you NFA guys are pretty much in agreement that the ATF pretty much leaves you alone I think I'll start the process going.
The_Beer_Slayer  [Site Staff]
6/7/2011 3:18:16 PM

Originally Posted By cade:
Slightly off topic but I was actually arrested and charged with carrying a concealed weapon and violating a knife ordinance. The next morning when my case was dismissed, the reason stated was not that the cop was an idiot who could not read an in state concealed carry permit, but it did state that the victim, plantiff or whatever did not appear.

I was stopped for another reason and volunteered to the officer that I had a gun in a holster in my pocket. Last time I do that.

Has anybody gotten shit from an officer who did not understand the tax stamp?

as it was explained to me by our police chief, le does not really have authority to ask for your tax stamp. our officers were told at best they could confiscate the device or firearm ONLY if their was reason to believe it was illegally possessed and must return it on once cleared by the atf. failure to have the documentation was not a valid reason.
west2746  [Member]
6/7/2011 3:28:45 PM
Originally Posted By cade:
Slightly off topic but I was actually arrested and charged with carrying a concealed weapon and violating a knife ordinance. The next morning when my case was dismissed, the reason stated was not that the cop was an idiot who could not read an in state concealed carry permit, but it did state that the victim, plantiff or whatever did not appear.

I was stopped for another reason and volunteered to the officer that I had a gun in a holster in my pocket. Last time I do that.

Has anybody gotten shit from an officer who did not understand the tax stamp?


Do you know how much training local police get on NFA laws. None so its easy to see why they do not understand them.
west2746  [Member]
6/7/2011 3:31:59 PM
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Has anybody with a class III license ever had a visit from the man?

A Form 1 or Form 4 is not a "class III license". "The man" will not come knocking on your door just because you have a tax stamp.

Having said that, I do have an FFL/SOT and occasionally will get visits from folks at the ATF.


Isn't the ATF required to conduct inspections of gun dealers––ie FFL/SOT holders every so many years as part of having the license? Isnt this mostly a records keeping thing? BUT this is not the same as having a tax stamp.
TitleII  [Member]
6/7/2011 4:35:27 PM
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Originally Posted By TitleII:
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.


I'm curious about this as well as I plan on getting a can soon. Has anybody with a class III license ever had a visit from the man?


Over 10,000 posts and you still think there is such a thing as a Class III license to own a can. Don't buy a can or you will end up in trouble!

It's late and I have been drinking so don't take that personal!

Just Sayin!



My ignorance vis-a-vis NFA items is plain for all to see. That is why I come here.

In all the years I have been collecting and shooting guns I have never had an interest in owning an NFA item due to the hoops you have to jump through... until recently.

I visit Palmetto State Armory a couple of times a month and they sell suppressors. So now I want one. Since all you NFA guys are pretty much in agreement that the ATF pretty much leaves you alone I think I'll start the process going.


Sorry about my wise crack. Seriously, you need to do some reading before jumping in. Although the dealer will walk you through the form 4 process and give you the speech about carrying the form with you, we all know how much some dealers know. And was mentioned here, cops don't now much about NFA either. So, you need to be the expert or at least sound like the expert.

No, ATF will not stop by your house just to look at your stamp, but a local cop may think that all evil silencers are illegal and give you a hard time at the range.

Again, sorry for the wise crack.

TxLewis  [Life Member]
6/7/2011 4:43:53 PM
It's a fair question to someone new to tax stamp fun toys.

Many of us heard these rumors.

In the end, I have not heard of anyone ever being looked at, without someone (pissed off spouse, nemesis, or someone else), giving the LEO's a probable cause issue.

TXL
frogdiver  [Member]
6/7/2011 4:58:26 PM
Originally Posted By TitleII:
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.


No, they look BEFORE you own a NFA toy.

I know of one and only one incident (and I have looked hard) that an agent went to someone's home. The short story it this. A rouge dealer was doing some under the table stuff. An agent called a NFA owner and explained the situation with the owner and said he would like, with the owners permission, to match the serial number on a suppressor with the form 4. The owner said the agent was in and out in less than 5 minutes with no other questions.

Other than that one incident, I know of no one who has had a agent ask to see their NFA item, unless they have called attention to themselves. Don't post illegal items and illegal transfers on Gun Broker!!

I have had a concealed weapons license since 1987 and NFA items for a long time. I am still waiting for the first time that I have been asked for a license or a form. And, I have shoot in the presence of LEOs and I have inadvertently exposed in front of LEOs. Don't act stupid and you will be golden!

Just Sayin!



Why would they bother someone selling makeup?
WholeBunches  [Member]
6/7/2011 7:39:58 PM
I was visited by an ATF agent. I was in the Navy and had transferred from Indiana to Camp Lejeune, NC and brought my M1A1 TSMG with me (with ATF permission). I lived on base. My unit was called and I was told to report to the Provost Marshall's office. The agent met me there and gave me his card. Said he was notified that I had brought my TSMG with me and how did I like it. He then said if word gets out that I have a Thompson, maybe someone will offer to sell me some stolen ammunition. If so, I am to call the agent. Well no one ever offered to sell me ammunition, but I was allowed to shoot a can (1000rd) of 45 ball through the Thompson if I allowed some of the rifle range instructors the opportunity to fire a couple of mags through the Thompson...that was a fun day shooting. I kept the Thompson in our unit's armory. Since I had an interest in firearms, even though I was Navy stationed with the Marines, my C.O. gave me access to the armory so I could issue firearms if the 2 armorers assigned weren't there. This was H&S Company, 2nd Medical Bn, 2nd FSSG, 2nd Marine Division. 1975-1977. Asked the C.O. if we could have a shooting team. I will NEVER forget his answer: "I don't care what you do as long as you don't make work for me." But he was happy when we were awarded the first shooting trophy the Battalion had ever won, and especially since his commanding general knew we had won.

One more small sea story: I owned a USN marked Victory Model. Asked the C.O. if I could carry it instead of a .45...fine with him. Kept the Victory Model and 1 box of .38 special hardball in the armory. Got the ammo from Special Services since the only pistol ammo allocated our unit was .45.

The armorers never messed with my guns (my presence made life easier for them).
TitleII  [Member]
6/7/2011 10:19:12 PM
Originally Posted By frogdiver:
Originally Posted By TitleII:
Originally Posted By Slayfan21:
I am asking a serious question, take that shit to GD please.

I just want to know.


No, they look BEFORE you own a NFA toy.

I know of one and only one incident (and I have looked hard) that an agent went to someone's home. The short story it this. A rouge dealer was doing some under the table stuff. An agent called a NFA owner and explained the situation with the owner and said he would like, with the owners permission, to match the serial number on a suppressor with the form 4. The owner said the agent was in and out in less than 5 minutes with no other questions.

Other than that one incident, I know of no one who has had a agent ask to see their NFA item, unless they have called attention to themselves. Don't post illegal items and illegal transfers on Gun Broker!!

I have had a concealed weapons license since 1987 and NFA items for a long time. I am still waiting for the first time that I have been asked for a license or a form. And, I have shoot in the presence of LEOs and I have inadvertently exposed in front of LEOs. Don't act stupid and you will be golden!

Just Sayin!



Why would they bother someone selling makeup?


Good catch. Those Amway dealers are trouble...

Seriously, thank you for helping me be a better person. We all need to learn from our mistakes and we need to learn that spell check is not the end all.

jbntex  [Member]
6/8/2011 1:20:30 AM
I have two dozen plus NFA firearms that I have collected over the past 10+ years and have never once been contacted or visited by the ATF.

I know there are definately folks out there with more NFA gear than me, but if I have not been visited yet, I think you will be in the clear with a SBR or two.
Quake_Guy  [Member]
6/8/2011 10:57:30 PM
If they do come to visit, is there any harm being cordial and letting them in, or does that give defacto permission to search/snoop around? Otherwise my understanding is they are allowed to verify any NFA item is present and in your possession. But only NFA items.
tony_k  [Moderator]
6/9/2011 12:26:28 PM
Originally Posted By Quake_Guy:
If they do come to visit, is there any harm being cordial and letting them in, or does that give defacto permission to search/snoop around?

Why in the world would you do that?

ATF is not the neighborhood Welcome Wagon. Ditto for all law enforcement: They do not come knocking on your door because they heard about what a swell guy you are, and they want to be your new buddy. They are there for one reason only: To investigate crime. And you just walked under their magnifying glass.

James H. Jeffries III, a former DOJ attorney who is in private practice specializing in firearms law, wrote an article titled "WHEN THE BATF COMES A-CALLIN' " that explains how FFL license holders should react when ATF shows up. For non-licensees –– and that includes all NFA owners who do not also hold FFLs –– his advice is simple:

"A non-licensee has no legal duty whatsoever to talk to or
otherwise cooperate with a BATF agent (or any other governmental
official). It is a sad commentary on our times and the state of
our federal government (and especially BATF) that the appropriate
legal advice from a defense lawyer to a non-licensee confronted by
a federal or state law enforcement officer can be capsulized in a
single sentence called RULE ONE: Silence is golden; or what part of
"no" don't you understand?"

Originally Posted By Quake_Guy:
Otherwise my understanding is they are allowed to verify any NFA item is present and in your possession. But only NFA items.

No, your understanding is wrong.

ATF has the legal right to examine only your paperwork. That is it. If they want to see anything else –– even your NFA items –– they must have sufficient probable cause that a crime has been committed, enough to convince a judge to sign a search warrant.

ATF can ask to see your NFA items (just like they can ask to see your non-NFA firearms). You can comply or refuse; either way, at that point, you should be talking to a criminal lawyer before giving ATF an answer either way.

If you decide to allow ATF to inspect your NFA, if does not have to be in your home –– and the inspect should not be there, because that opens you up to anything ATF can see in your home. Instead, if your attorney and you agree to allow ATF to inspect a firearm or firearms, you can arrange to do it either at your attorney's office, or at ATF's office with your attorney present.

YMMV.
sitkashooter  [Team Member]
6/10/2011 12:52:15 AM
not to be rude but people need to use a bit of logic.

think about how many registered SBRs, SBSs, and suppressors (not even including MGs) there are out there. now think about how many ATF agents are out there. why in the world would they go around knocking on doors of legit NFA owners with no reason? the ATF would seriously have to hire an army to make this work, even then, think about the cost involved and trying to justify it to the bean counters.... all just to check out guys who legally registered or transferred a title II firearm.

rightwingnut  [Member]
6/17/2011 7:59:25 AM
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By Quake_Guy:
If they do come to visit, is there any harm being cordial and letting them in, or does that give defacto permission to search/snoop around?

Why in the world would you do that?

ATF is not the neighborhood Welcome Wagon. Ditto for all law enforcement: They do not come knocking on your door because they heard about what a swell guy you are, and they want to be your new buddy. They are there for one reason only: To investigate crime. And you just walked under their magnifying glass.

James H. Jeffries III, a former DOJ attorney who is in private practice specializing in firearms law, wrote an article titled "WHEN THE BATF COMES A-CALLIN' " that explains how FFL license holders should react when ATF shows up. For non-licensees –– and that includes all NFA owners who do not also hold FFLs –– his advice is simple:

"A non-licensee has no legal duty whatsoever to talk to or
otherwise cooperate with a BATF agent (or any other governmental
official). It is a sad commentary on our times and the state of
our federal government (and especially BATF) that the appropriate
legal advice from a defense lawyer to a non-licensee confronted by
a federal or state law enforcement officer can be capsulized in a
single sentence called RULE ONE: Silence is golden; or what part of
"no" don't you understand?"

Originally Posted By Quake_Guy:
Otherwise my understanding is they are allowed to verify any NFA item is present and in your possession. But only NFA items.

No, your understanding is wrong.

ATF has the legal right to examine only your paperwork. That is it. If they want to see anything else –– even your NFA items –– they must have sufficient probable cause that a crime has been committed, enough to convince a judge to sign a search warrant.

ATF can ask to see your NFA items (just like they can ask to see your non-NFA firearms). You can comply or refuse; either way, at that point, you should be talking to a criminal lawyer before giving ATF an answer either way.

If you decide to allow ATF to inspect your NFA, if does not have to be in your home –– and the inspect should not be there, because that opens you up to anything ATF can see in your home. Instead, if your attorney and you agree to allow ATF to inspect a firearm or firearms, you can arrange to do it either at your attorney's office, or at ATF's office with your attorney present.

YMMV.


That is a good ass post Tony K. I didn't know that the ATF could ONLY arbitrarily demand to examine paperwork but not the item itself.

Mr Quake,
if any LEO ever approaches you asking if they can interview or if you will consent to a search of your self, vehicle, dwelling etc the answer is always:
"Officer, I respectfully decline to make any statements or answer any question and I do not give legal consent to any searches." Good God never let any LEO in your home w/o a warrant or any search. Anything thing that can be used against you will then be, even it if it wasn't yours nor did you know it was in there where as if they search anyway their justification for probably cause may be thrown out. Just be/c you think there is no contraband in your car or house doens't mean that is the case. What if your dopey brother in law had a joint in his pocket last year and it fell out of his pocket into your car seat or couch, or the guy that owned said couch or car in the past... Google that vidoe by the defense lawyer called "don't talk to cops" or "never talk to cops" Best 20 minutes you could spend.

Remember that LEO can lie about the reason they are asking you questioning your or searching you. Example:They they hear about a crazed man w/ a pink gun and were wondering if you had one and you think that by showing them your guns, none of which are pink, you are exonerating yourself. But oops, the when you invited them into you house and showered them your gun, it is close enough to the real description they are interested in to give them probable cause to get a warrant or arrest you. Not a great example maybe but this type of thing can and does happen about all sorts of things.
bullyforyou  [Team Member]
6/17/2011 11:35:31 AM
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
*snip*

That is a good ass post Tony K. I didn't know that the ATF could ONLY arbitrarily demand to examine paperwork but not the item itself.

*snip*


they really can't "arbitrarily" demand your paperwork either. they don't know who has paperwork unless they 1) see you with the weapon, or 2) spend time perusing the registry, taking down names, and then bothering people for paperwork - which thy would have no legal "right" to do.

what it comes down to is this. if you are being asked about paperwork, they've either seen you with a suspected NFA device, or you are already under investigation.



johnreilly  [Team Member]
6/17/2011 2:04:23 PM
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By Quake_Guy:
If they do come to visit, is there any harm being cordial and letting them in, or does that give defacto permission to search/snoop around?

Why in the world would you do that?

ATF is not the neighborhood Welcome Wagon. Ditto for all law enforcement: They do not come knocking on your door because they heard about what a swell guy you are, and they want to be your new buddy. They are there for one reason only: To investigate crime. And you just walked under their magnifying glass.

James H. Jeffries III, a former DOJ attorney who is in private practice specializing in firearms law, wrote an article titled "WHEN THE BATF COMES A-CALLIN' " that explains how FFL license holders should react when ATF shows up. For non-licensees –– and that includes all NFA owners who do not also hold FFLs –– his advice is simple:

"A non-licensee has no legal duty whatsoever to talk to or
otherwise cooperate with a BATF agent (or any other governmental
official). It is a sad commentary on our times and the state of
our federal government (and especially BATF) that the appropriate
legal advice from a defense lawyer to a non-licensee confronted by
a federal or state law enforcement officer can be capsulized in a
single sentence called RULE ONE: Silence is golden; or what part of
"no" don't you understand?"

Originally Posted By Quake_Guy:
Otherwise my understanding is they are allowed to verify any NFA item is present and in your possession. But only NFA items.

No, your understanding is wrong.

ATF has the legal right to examine only your paperwork. That is it. If they want to see anything else –– even your NFA items –– they must have sufficient probable cause that a crime has been committed, enough to convince a judge to sign a search warrant.

ATF can ask to see your NFA items (just like they can ask to see your non-NFA firearms). You can comply or refuse; either way, at that point, you should be talking to a criminal lawyer before giving ATF an answer either way.

If you decide to allow ATF to inspect your NFA, if does not have to be in your home –– and the inspect should not be there, because that opens you up to anything ATF can see in your home. Instead, if your attorney and you agree to allow ATF to inspect a firearm or firearms, you can arrange to do it either at your attorney's office, or at ATF's office with your attorney present.

YMMV.


This is a terrific summation of the facts. To further that point please watch this: Don't talk to the police I think this applies to the ATF more than a local cop.

GACopGolfer  [Member]
6/22/2011 11:17:10 PM
A general answer, but based on a good deal of experience in dealing with ATF as an LEO (the local field office files probably 10-12 armed career criminal cases for me every year). ATF Field Agents have a significant work load that precludes "knock and talks" on fishing expeditions. Issuance of a stamp does not waive your Constitutional Rights. The AG has areas of emphasis, which right now are straw purchasers and armed career criminals (3 or more prior violent felony convictions in possession of a firearm and/or ammo). ATF Agents and AUSAs have to focus on these areas if they are to survive professionally. If you ever have contact with an ATF Field Agent its EXTREMELY likely that it will be to try to establish the ownership of a gun you filled out a 4473 on, privately sold, and has been recovered in a crime since (unless you suddenly but a few thousand pounds of Ammonium Nitrate or something similar). The compliance auditors doing FFL audits are a completely different animal (pretentious bureaucrats) frequently but very privately maligned by Field Agents.
Quake_Guy  [Member]
6/27/2011 2:22:24 AM
Well, so I need to go through the hassle and expense of hiring a lawyer to avoid proving to ATF that I own the gun and paperwork for a gun when I sent them the paperwork to begin with? Besides, what the hell could be contraband on a machine gun.

Let's think about that one.

If you are legal, I would imagine they are investigating someone else in the chain of ownership or the dealer involved. Form 1s might be a different deal and I don't have any of those and probably won't for all the paranoia in this thread. Besides, if they really want your ass, what is going to keep them from getting a warrant anyway? Besides, in my state, they can just yell search warrant before shooting you 22 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting

I don't have joints in my couch, if you do for any reason, you probably shouldn't have NFA items in your house to begin with. And I dont keep assorted guns and gun parts laying around on my couch either, my question had to do with letting LE agents in my house, like the living room near the front door. The only guns in my living room belong to little lego minifigures.

Anyway, I realize I don't need to volunteer my life story. But requiring a lawyer to comply on an ATF request to inspect paperwork and items they already know about seems like insisting a lawyer to be present for questioning after you already send the cops a notarized and signed confession to a crime.