who can actually legally ask to see your stamps?

I've been googling this without success. who can actually legally ask to see your tax stamps?

all i can find is this from atf.gov:

Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.


this seems to say only an ATF officer may ask to see it.

^^ this is my understanding

i had a RO ask if i had a stamp. i told him yes & he went about his business...didnt even ask to see it.

The way our IC is written "(7) Persons possessing, or having applied to possess, machine guns under applicable United States statutes. Such machine guns must be transferred as provided in this article."

For you to prove that to the popo you would need your form 1 or 4.

Everyone else can F-off if that is the mood that I am in.

Tax Stamp..... IRS and ATF would be my guesses.

ATF forms are classed as tax returns, subject to the same privacy laws as your annual 1040. ATF has the legal right to see them, but no one else does, without a court order.

That said, in most states, registration of NFA items is a defense against prosecution for illegal possession, so if LE asks to see them to establish that the items you possess are indeed legally registered, it's best to show them to LE when asked, rather than have your attorney produce them after you have been arrested, processed and arraigned. (And no, it's not false arrest if you fail to provide them.)

Also, while range officers have no legal right to see them, they do have the legal right to refuse service (i.e., not allow you to shoot). Many ranges won't allow you to shoot NFA without proof it's registered, so you can either show them your forms, or go home.

I have no objections to showing my forms when asked, as long as they do not want to make and keep a copy.

YMMV.

i don't make a habit of being cooperative for illega actions of the LE..

LE most definately can ask to see it if he as a probably cause or a warrant, but not without it.. and if he arrests me, he can do so, and i will file complaints against the officer and the department for false arrest.

i wish not to play in part of any government agencies who are overstepping their authorities

we should not feel guilty or feel like criminals because we like guns..

my sisters is a senior assitance DA and all her friends are crnimal or defense attorneys so i feel like i will get a very good representations for very low cost.

This is the arfcom obsession.

You guys will never get anywhere by antagonizing law enforment personnel.

The cop gets paid whether he's tazering your ass or bidding you to have a nice day.

Being confrontational is a losing strategy. Juries are not sympathetic and the government never runs out of time or money. So do the math.

+1

And in light of the new .gov attitude toward movements like "Sovereign" -which this attitude bears the hallmarks of- it would be extremely bad judgment to play this game with LE who are already probably on edge by the presence of a machine gun...

Well in my state, the defense against the SBR/machine gun/suppressor laws is proof that it the item is properly registered at the federal level by having the tax stamp. If I ask to see proof of that and you refuse, I will have probable cause to believe that it is unregistered and I will arrest you. Your item will be seized as evidence and placed into evidence storage. You will be brought to jail.

The charges will be probably dismissed when your lawyer hands over proof that you have the stamp but why bother with being arrested, booked, and held in jail just because you don't want to display a simple form? In addition, there is a likely chance that the county attorney's office will still charge you will obstructing since you hindered a law enforcement investigation by not displaying the form when legitimately asked for it.

I don't understand why some people have to be so defiant with law enforcement. Instead of displaying a simple form, followed by having a friendly gun conversation, which leads to getting to know your local law enforcement in a good way, some people decide that they want to be difficult so law enforcement gets to know you in a bad way.

Agreed I would do the same if I was still LE and My Chiefs would have backed me.

Because in my experience that is rarely how it works out. It normally ends up in a 25 min lecture about how LEO's are the only ones that have any right or cause to own an NFA item or carry a gun and how I am a huge liability to myself and others. I'm ALWAYS polite with law enforcement and never defiant, law enforcement is rarely polite or professional with me. Might just be the area, though I will say that I have never had a problem with my counties sheriffs dept. those guys are always stand up.

Texas Penal Code Chapter 46

Pay particular attention to the bolded part below. Any TX law enforcement officer that asks for proof that your prohibited weapon is registered in accordance with NFA is not overstepping his authority.

NFA items are illegal under state law, in all the states that I'm familiar with the codes.

Proof of federal registration is (again, under state law) an affirmative defense against prosecution. So if you show the form, you will not be arrested; if you do not, LE has reason and grounds to arrest you and confiscate your NFA.

It is a lot like drugs: If you are found with a pocketful of hydrocodone, LE will ask to see the bottle, or your prescription. If you refuse to show them, they have probable cause to arrest you.

Good luck with that "I'll file a complaint for false arrest" stance. You will accomplish nothing except to run up your attorney's fees, and waste a whole lot of time in jail and in court. Because if you do not show them your Form 1/2/3/4/5, they have a legal obligation to arrest you, and thus they are immune from any legal action you may take for alleged false arrest.

Find a different windmill, don quixote.

I really do not see what the big deal is about showing law enforcement that you are in possession of a lawfully registered firearm. Almost all calls that I have been involved with was from "someone is shooting a machine gun". As always, they were and they had their copies of the Form 4s and I was on my way in usually 5 minutes. Your state driver's license has more personal info than the ATF forms, why make it difficult ?

So, instead of spending 25 minutes being lectured at worst, you would rather spend you day being arrested, booked, held, making calls for someone to post bond, and then having to pay for a lawyer? Makes sense to me

The worst thing that would happen around here is that the officer wouldn't have knowledge of NFA laws so they would ask a few extra questions to assure themselves that everything is legal.

I never said I wouldn't show the form. All I was said was that I can see why some people get pissy with the popo for being pricks and asking to see forms that they really don't need to see. It's the proverbial " guilty until you prove yourself innocent." NOT THE WAY IT"S SUPPOSED TO WORK.

I have no problem showing a copy of my tax stamp to a LE or a RO upon request.Yes you can be a stickler and say "FU I ain't going to show you shit because I don't have to" and let the chips falls where they may. Or you show them a piece of paper and be on your way...The choice is yours.

I disagree. If you were guilty until proven innocent you would be arrested first. Also, since state (and federal) laws say that ownership of these items is illegal unless there is a stamp, and since ordering an SBR AR upper is so easy that anyone could obtain one, I would say it's perfectly logical that LE would want to make sure the person that has an SBR (or other fun toy) also has a stamp.

Think of it as an officer seeing a very young looking person drinking a beer at an event. Is it not ok for the officer to ask for the person's ID to confirm he/she is 21? If it turns out to be just a young looking 21 year old, nothing will come of it. If it turns out that person is under 21, actions will be taken.

While I can see the parallel that your trying to make. It's a shitty one and I don't agree. So do you just hang out at ranges and ask to see tax stamps to insure that no crimes are being committed? Would doing that make you feel good, like your preventing some kind of crime? Do you think that would be a proper and legal thing to do? If I were a LEO that would make me feel like a piece of shit, invading other peoples privacy like that.

If some cop is rambling on and on about NFA weapons just tell him you don't have time for hearling his personal opinion, and if he doens't like the law, change it. Otherwise you're free to go, right?

As a side note, I always get a kick out of how gun laws, written by lawyers with gun IQ's of 70, are such a mismatch. Like this list:

Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:



(1) an explosive weapon; (WFT is an explosive weapon? It sounds like one that you fire, and it explodes in your hands. So not only do you go to the hospital, you go to jail. I think they mean a weapon wihch fires a projectile that containes an explosive change).



(2) a machine gun;



(3) a short-barrel firearm;



(4) a firearm silencer;



(5) a switchblade knife (so Tommy's the Greaser's switchblade knife is in the same catagory as an M60. Talk about a wide net).



(6) knuckles (Lord have mercy. I think they mean brass knuckles. But they just say knuckles. So I guess every human being, who has not lost their hands in in viloation of Texas law. Idiots.)


(7) armor-piercing ammunition; (What armor? If I consider tin foil my armor (Hey it worked for the Tin Man from Oz), then is a BB gun armor piercing ammuntion?)



(8) a chemical dispensing device; (My can of Pam spray is a chemcial dispensing device, dispensing long chain organic oils at the push of the button. Once again, the Texas Legislature has made every cook in the state a criminal.)



(9) a zip gun; or



(10) a tire deflation device. (The back knob on my tire gauge is a tire deflation device. I use it whenever I air my tires up to get the exact air pressure. Call DPS, there's a criminal on the loose).



(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.



(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.


The only thing missing from the list is the usual reference to "Dirk", of "Slugshot", or some other throwback to when the law was first written in 1852 or whenever.

Tony, WA is an outlier and has no law against silencer, DD or AOW possession. SBR/SBS and MG possession are illegal but it is an affirmative defense that you had it registered before the cutoff in 1994.

not to hijack, but back home in MA you have to get a mchine gun license issued by the state. so it makes me wonder ... how does one get a license for something that is federally illegal?

just a funny thought i had.

I can understand why a RO would request to see documentation for NFA items for liability reasons. "You want to shoot NFA on my range you'd better be legal...." In my perfect world this wouldn't be necessary because you could simply buy those items at any gun store without any BS, but that's the way it is....

Yup, I'm the Shooting Range Police (SRP) and I monitor our trap club since that is the only public range in my jurisdiction. I make sure all shotguns have at least an 18" barrel, or if they are shorter than that, that they have a tax stamp. If it is a SBS, I also make sure the engraving is at least .003" deep, I investigate to make sure the gun was made into a SBS in the town that is engraved on the gun, I make sure that it is a Trustee that is listed on the trust if it is a trust owned SBS, and even after all that, I will lecture them about how dangerous shooting a SBS is and then watch over them like a hawk during their shooting session. That is my sworn duty to perform as the SRP.








But seriously, the only time I would ask for a stamp is if I encountered an NFA item based on a complaint or tip OR during something like a traffic stop and I notice the item out in the open. I don't make contact with people shooting unless there is a complaint about them. So the reality of me actually coming across an NFA item on patrol is very slim. I have better things to do then be SRP.

So your the annoying twat that sticks his nose in my business and lectures me every time I go to the range?

Yes apparently we do!


And I have been one of "those guys" that have told the local popo's to FO at one time or another. I never went to jail for it either!

The obvious answer here would be a grenade, land mine, or other explosive device used as a weapon. Seems pretty clear to me.

Going close to 10 years as a LEO. If you have a NFA item in your possession and I asked for proof it was registered and was told to "FO". That person would be arrested, NFA item would be seized and turned into evidence. Person would be charged with a Prohibited Weapon charge. Would be booked into county jail, would be magistrated by Justice of the peace. Would have to bond out of jail, then have to make a court appearance where in order to hope charge was dismissed show proof to DA.

Am I doing anything wrong as a LEO?? No


Now wouldn't it be easier to say yes sir my NFA is registered, here's my stamp???

Texas Law


§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official
duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law
enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
National Firearms Act, as amended.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade
knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an
antique or curio; or
(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing
ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition
available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in
Subsection (b).
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in
which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for
the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a
security officer and has received training on the use of the
chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement
Officer Standards and Education; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this
subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of
Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a
commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002,
Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered
under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.

Anyone.

Can I see your stamps?

Confirmed.

I just googled this too and discovered that absolutely anyone has the ability to ask to see your forms. Mute people, though, must submit such requests in writing.

It's just crazy!

Ditto. I would do the same here. I've got more than twice that time as a cop here in MD. I also have more machine guns than most folks. I don't see why anyone with a legal machine gun would have any issue showing their stamp to the police.

Wherever you are shooting, they can ask. And anyone who can arrest you, can ask too. Simple, the way I see it.

Yeah. If you tell me to fuckoff, I'm taking you to jail, too, especially if NFA branch is not available after-hours when I work.

I've only encountered NFA once in the last 10 years that I've been in the business too. And they didnt tell me to fuckoff. People who do this, do not help by trying to be badasses when, they are not.

Yes, because your badge makes you ten times the badass any of the rest of us could ever hope to achieve. Your so awesome I just want to pray to your awesomeness.

Really??? What's with the sarcasm????

How old are you?

As said above, how old are you?

You wanna play with NFA toys, then prepare to show someone your papers if asked.

You wanna tell someone to fuck off, that's fine, but be prepared to be put in jail. NFA isn't exactly something to play around with......

gbcop, I hate the idea that the police think that any question they ask must be replied to or they have the right to arrest me. It's not true. I also hate LEO's that think that they are the last word in badassery because they are a civil servant with a badge and a gun. Also not true.

Devilpig, not that it's any of your business officer. I'm 32.

Now before we go down the road that Goodrat is a cop bashing anarchist fuck.... I have LEO friends, each one of them is a polite professional. They go through great pains not to be asshats or aggressive pricks and to be very cognizant and respectful of peoples rights and privacy. That's what makes them good cops.

And as LEO we have sworn to uphold the law and constitution.


If someone is shooting a machine gun would you expect me and every other LEO to just wave and keep driving?? Not going to happen.. In TEXAS your NFA has to be registered. Am I going to stop and check ANYONE with NFA item. You darn right!! A simple yes sir here's my stamp will lead to you asking me to stop bugging you to shoot your NFA toy... By what your saying, me expecting an answer to is your NFA registered?? Ya, a tax stamp better be displayed or I'll be under the presumption that you are in possession of a felony..

No LEO here has come across as Rambo. We're paid to do a job and to go home every night. And by god I'm going to do it and give tax payers their money worth. I don't know what kind of bad experience you had with a LEO, but let me apologize for that INDIVIDUAL OFFICER not being professional.

Please don't hold past negative experiences with a LEO against the rest of us!

Believe it or not, I'm just as anti-government as the next pro 2nd amendment guy

Yea, that's pretty much exactly what I expect. You can check my stamp when I do something illegal with said NFA item. And there are PLENTY of cops on this site that think that god shut down the badass factory after he made them. And the law, constitution, rights and privacy are laughable to enough cops I can understand why so many people are belligerent towards them.

I have a lot of NFA, a bunch of us were at a range shooting MG's and suppressed guns, the County Police(plural) showed up and asked to see our paperwork. We all started producing forms for the officers, they thanked us politely and then we offered/let them shoot some stuff, why in the hell anyone would want to provoke someone who is sworn to serve and protect(they are just making sure we were not a bunch of crazies) is just asking to take a free ride and get some free food and incur some costs/hassles in my opinion. Just be sure to let us know how it goes when you get arrested and how much time/money it costs to get your stuff back I just prefer to keep my NFA in my safe and not in lockup.

ymmv

I see this isn't going anywhere so I'll leave it at this...

Come to Texas, and be in lawful possession of a NFA item. Me as a police officer see you in possession of said NFA item. You refuse to show me NFA stamp...

I have no choice but to believe you are in possession of a prohibited weapon, you will be arrested, your NFA item seized and submitted into evidence. You will be magistrated for a FELONY CHARGE, you will have to bond out of jail for said FELONY CHARGE.


Skipping along... Wouldn't it be easier to prove your in compliance by saying yes sir! Here's my stamp


Good luck in life. If you've run across LEO with that I don't have to show my paperwork attitude. I just hope you keep running across rookie officers...

Thank you for being a responsible citizen!

As I've said before I'm more than willing to show a stamp. That's never been an issue. I can however understand someone refusing, it's within their rights. And frankly I solute anyone who is willing to go through the hassle. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

Oh, and I know it's a bit of a surprise to Texans but Texas ain't the whole country.

Reading comprehension??

"You can check my stamp when I do something illegal with said NFA item. "

Best of luck to you Sir/Mam. This conversation obviously isn't productive so I'm stepping away. Certainly don't want two good people getting into a trash talking episode online that will just make both of us look bad.

Keep'em tight and good shooting Sir/Mam! I'm out.

Either wave and keep driving or stop and ask if you can shoot it. But the idea of stopping and Stamp checking every NFA owner you see shooting their guns is pretty fucked up. Fortunately there are no cops like you where I live, nor have any of my NFA owner friends encountered you.

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