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Does the BATF Need the 'Certification of Trust' Sent in with Form 1?
5/10/2012 1:43:32 PM
I have a Form 1 that has been pending since January. The NFA attorney that set up my Trust told me that I did not need to send in the “Certification of Trust” document with the Trust and Form 1, so I did not include the Certification of Trust. Yesterday I was reading a "How To" NFA website and they said that the BATF requires the “Certification of Trust” in addition to the Trust document. Now I am worried that my Form 1 will be delayed or rejected. Does the BATF require the 'Certification of Trust' document also?
5/10/2012 1:49:14 PM
I have always included mine and never had a problem.
5/10/2012 8:55:34 PM
We send them when we fill out forms for customers with trusts.
This may help some:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/certification.html
This may help some:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/certification.html
5/10/2012 9:19:56 PM
I didn't send one either, I called the NFA office.
She told me not to send one in, and if they need it they will send a letter requesting it.
You will not lose your place in-line if they request the letter.
She told me not to send one in, and if they need it they will send a letter requesting it.
You will not lose your place in-line if they request the letter.
5/10/2012 9:21:53 PM
Originally Posted By LeonC:
I didn't send one either, I called the NFA office.
She told me not to send one in, and if they need it they will send a letter requesting it.
You will not lose your place in-line if they request the letter.
I didn't send one either, I called the NFA office.
She told me not to send one in, and if they need it they will send a letter requesting it.
You will not lose your place in-line if they request the letter.
Come to think of it, the first transfer I did after creating my trust I didn't include the certification and got the letter asking for it. About 2 weeks after mailing the certification (not to WV but someone else) I got my stamp. That's why I always include the certification now.
5/10/2012 9:23:42 PM
I always include one copy and I use a trust. For what it's worth, one lady at the NFA told me they need one, and one lady told me they don't. It won't ever get denied if you have too many forms...only if you have too little. Just mail it in to be safe.
5/10/2012 10:40:57 PM
I've always just made a copy of my whole trust. I'd guess the cert is in that. But to tell you the truth, haven't even really looked. 
5/10/2012 10:56:55 PM
One of the final pages of my trust says "Certificate of Acknowledgment of Notary Public." Im guessing thats the same thing as Certification of Trust? if so I did send it in with my form 4s
5/11/2012 8:25:34 AM
Originally Posted By bwideman:
We send them when we fill out forms for customers with trusts.
This may help some:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/certification.html
We send them when we fill out forms for customers with trusts.
This may help some:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/certification.html
I am not talking about the Form 5330.20 - Certification of Compliance. I sent this form in with my Form 1.
My Trust document has the main Trust document which I signed and had notarized, and then there is an additional two pages of the trust called the "Certification of Trust" which I also signed and had notarized. My Trust is basically in three parts:
1. Declaration of Trust which includes the Schedule A with $10 inventory item. This doc is signed by me and notarized.
2. Certification of Trust, which basically says that I certify that the Trust is valid and still in force and it lists me as the Trustee. This doc is signed by me and notarized.
3. Inventory schedule document of NFA firearms
I included only number 1 (Declaration of Trust) with my Form 1 and Form 5330.20 that I mailed to the BATF. My question in the OP is should I have also included number 2 (Certification of Trust)?
After doing more research I found this definition of the Certification of Trust on a legal definition webpage.
Certification Of Trust
A condensed version of a declaration of trust, which leaves out details of what property is held in the trust and the identity of the beneficiaries. You can show a certification of trust to a financial organization or other institution to prove that you have established a valid trust, without revealing specifics that you want to keep private. In some states, this document is called a certificate or abstract of trust.
I also found this on a NFA Lawyer website:
Like a Corporation, there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer to a Revocable Trust. However, like a corporation, you must submit proof of the existence of the entity (be it a trust or corporation) with your Form 4. While many practitioners will advise the purchaser to simply submit a Certificate of Trust (typically a short one page notarized document confirming the existence of the trust and identifying the Trustee) as proof, the author recommends that you submit a full copy of the trust itself to avoid any questions from ATF as to the legitimacy and existence of the Trust. While some are uneasy about submitting a copy of their Trust with the Form 4, the author has had no issues with this practice.
So it sounds to me like the Declaration of Trust covers it, and sending in the Certification of Trust in addition to the Declaration of Trust is redundant.
5/13/2012 9:26:17 AM
I just send in the declaration of trust with the Sch A.
5/13/2012 9:44:39 AM
Originally Posted By 57Strat:
I am not talking about the Form 5330.20 - Certification of Compliance. I sent this form in with my Form 1.
My Trust document has the main Trust document which I signed and had notarized, and then there is an additional two pages of the trust called the "Certification of Trust" which I also signed and had notarized. My Trust is basically in three parts:
1. Declaration of Trust which includes the Schedule A with $10 inventory item. This doc is signed by me and notarized.
2. Certification of Trust, which basically says that I certify that the Trust is valid and still in force and it lists me as the Trustee. This doc is signed by me and notarized.
3. Inventory schedule document of NFA firearms
I included only number 1 (Declaration of Trust) with my Form 1 and Form 5330.20 that I mailed to the BATF. My question in the OP is should I have also included number 2 (Certification of Trust)?
After doing more research I found this definition of the Certification of Trust on a legal definition webpage.
Certification Of Trust
A condensed version of a declaration of trust, which leaves out details of what property is held in the trust and the identity of the beneficiaries. You can show a certification of trust to a financial organization or other institution to prove that you have established a valid trust, without revealing specifics that you want to keep private. In some states, this document is called a certificate or abstract of trust.
I also found this on a NFA Lawyer website:
Like a Corporation, there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer to a Revocable Trust. However, like a corporation, you must submit proof of the existence of the entity (be it a trust or corporation) with your Form 4. While many practitioners will advise the purchaser to simply submit a Certificate of Trust (typically a short one page notarized document confirming the existence of the trust and identifying the Trustee) as proof, the author recommends that you submit a full copy of the trust itself to avoid any questions from ATF as to the legitimacy and existence of the Trust. While some are uneasy about submitting a copy of their Trust with the Form 4, the author has had no issues with this practice.
So it sounds to me like the Declaration of Trust covers it, and sending in the Certification of Trust in addition to the Declaration of Trust is redundant.
Originally Posted By bwideman:
We send them when we fill out forms for customers with trusts.
This may help some:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/certification.html
We send them when we fill out forms for customers with trusts.
This may help some:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/certification.html
I am not talking about the Form 5330.20 - Certification of Compliance. I sent this form in with my Form 1.
My Trust document has the main Trust document which I signed and had notarized, and then there is an additional two pages of the trust called the "Certification of Trust" which I also signed and had notarized. My Trust is basically in three parts:
1. Declaration of Trust which includes the Schedule A with $10 inventory item. This doc is signed by me and notarized.
2. Certification of Trust, which basically says that I certify that the Trust is valid and still in force and it lists me as the Trustee. This doc is signed by me and notarized.
3. Inventory schedule document of NFA firearms
I included only number 1 (Declaration of Trust) with my Form 1 and Form 5330.20 that I mailed to the BATF. My question in the OP is should I have also included number 2 (Certification of Trust)?
After doing more research I found this definition of the Certification of Trust on a legal definition webpage.
Certification Of Trust
A condensed version of a declaration of trust, which leaves out details of what property is held in the trust and the identity of the beneficiaries. You can show a certification of trust to a financial organization or other institution to prove that you have established a valid trust, without revealing specifics that you want to keep private. In some states, this document is called a certificate or abstract of trust.
I also found this on a NFA Lawyer website:
Like a Corporation, there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer to a Revocable Trust. However, like a corporation, you must submit proof of the existence of the entity (be it a trust or corporation) with your Form 4. While many practitioners will advise the purchaser to simply submit a Certificate of Trust (typically a short one page notarized document confirming the existence of the trust and identifying the Trustee) as proof, the author recommends that you submit a full copy of the trust itself to avoid any questions from ATF as to the legitimacy and existence of the Trust. While some are uneasy about submitting a copy of their Trust with the Form 4, the author has had no issues with this practice.
So it sounds to me like the Declaration of Trust covers it, and sending in the Certification of Trust in addition to the Declaration of Trust is redundant.
I sent #1 and #3 the first time I did a trust and got delayed and a letter asking for #2. From them on I send all 3.
5/14/2012 2:17:54 PM
Always included mine,if they dont need it they can toss it.No sense in not sending only to get a letter stating "Hey we need the certification".Save the time and send it.
5/18/2012 2:35:11 PM
I've only sent a copy of the full trust with schedule A. I have received two approvals so far and sent out two more applications in the mail today.
5/19/2012 8:54:17 AM
The Certification of Trust is kind of a abbreviated version of the full trust. If you're sending in the full trust document then you don't need it.
5/19/2012 8:55:06 AM
dupe
5/19/2012 10:51:53 AM
Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
The Certification of Trust is kind of a abbreviated version of the full trust. If you're sending in the full trust document then you don't need it.
The Certification of Trust is kind of a abbreviated version of the full trust. If you're sending in the full trust document then you don't need it.
This. A Certification of Trust is in essence a document that says "yes, you have a trust," but it redacts many details. Send in the trust itself, and if your attorney included that document with it, it can't hurt to send it too, but it is the trust itself, with ALL the details, that the NFA branch needs.
