Question about FNC sear - how is not the same as a DIAS? ETC

Since the sear is the registered NFA part, and the ATF considers the firearm to be the upper,

Does that mean if you wore out your lower or whatever, you could have the sear removed and installed in a new lower?

The whole situation seems very confusing, the sear is on the form 4, gets stuck in the lower, but the upper is the gun.

How's that different from a DIAS? Apparenty they were making the FNC sears operate as a bona-fide DIAS when ATF considered the lower to be the gun. Then they said the upper was the gun and now the lowers are being drilled for the sear.

Or, put it this way: your FNC with the sear in it gets run over by a steam roller.

You have a spare FNC on hand, to supply a replacement for all the squashed parts.

What part of the original FNC has to be kept, and what parts can simply be replaced?

I mean replaced and not violate the law.

It's the same as a DIAS. The original FNC is a Title 1(?) normal firearm and the sear is a Title 2 NFA firearm ("Firearm" in the NFA is defined in the NFA and is not a layperson term. "Poison Gas" is a "firearm" in the NFA.) You may freely move the sear from host to host, as long as you have not made alterations to the original host that become illegal when the sear is not installed. i.e. cutting the barrel to sub-16".


I'm not familiar with this and it may be related to modifying a receiver to be a MG receiver. That would be considered manufacturing a new MG and would not be legal, so they mount the DIAS to a different part.

Oops...

To fit the registered sear into the lower, you need to drill a hole to mount an axle pin for the sear to pivot on.

When the lower was considered "the gun" by BATFE, they suddenly decided that drilling the hole was illegal, so S&H started making this gizmo for the sear to mount into, so it would be a pure drop-in.

Then ATF decided to make the upper be "the gun", so then you could drill the receiver again.

I honestly am completely confused, but it seems to me that you could swap the sear from gun to gun since the sear is the registered part and the lower is nothing.

Another weird thing, some semi-auto FNCs have the serial number on the lower, some on the upper and some on both.

I've also heard that the sear becomes "married" to the gun, so what the heck would that mean? The lower is replacable but the upper has to accompany the sear wherever it goes?


Coulfd somebody manufacture a say 22 caliber upper and then you put your full auto lower on it?

There is a good 3000 to 6000 registered sears out there, along with 6000 FNCs.

That's a small number of guns for a semi-auto rifle but it's a big fat shitpile of guns in the NFA registry. So this whole topic could become very relevant considering how "modular" the FNC lower is, it's practically a AR15 knockoff.

Per law, when you start adding certain holes to the receiver of a semiauto, you are making a new MG receiver, which is illegal for individuals. i.e. The AR15 autosear hole and the HK91 swingdown pin hole. Since the ATF couldn't make up their mind, the conversion technique had to change. This is a separate issue than what you are getting at elsewhere in your post.


Correct, in the general sense. See below.


I'm a bit of a newb, but there are two contexts to a married sear/gun, but the end result is the same in that they cannot be legally separated.

The first context is when I use a DIAS and then take advantage of that fact to cut down my barrel to less than 16" without filing a Form 1. This is not an SBR since the MG takes precedence. However, if the sear leaves the gun I end up with an unregistered SBR. I could of course Form 1 the rifle to facilitate the divorce in this case.

The second context was an improper method of orignally building a MG in the first place. Since an autosear is a conversion part, it is legally the MG, the papered part and carries the registered serial number. Some people installed an unmarked DIAS and then registered the original gun as a "registered receiver". Now the autosear is a conversion part (legally a MG itself), but the rifle is the papered part and carries the registered serial number. These parts must be kep married and physically together, because separate they are two MGs.

Let me see if I have this straight -

If you take an AR15 and drill the holes for the full auto parts, you are creating an illegal machine gun even if you never install the full auto parts, because the machine gun itself is the lower that has all the full auto holes drilled in it.

If you have a M16 RDIAS, the machine gun is the sear itself and no holes are needed in the lower anyway.

by contrast -

If you have a registered FNC full auto sear, the sear itself is the machine gun, just exactly like an M16 RDIAS.

But the sear needs an axle pin, which you CAN legally drill the lower for, because the lower is not the receiver, the upper is. Since you're not altering the upper (the receiver), you're not making a new machine gun when you drill holes in the lower.

When you drill the lower, you're just modifying a misc. part, just making it easier to install the registered sear into it.

So if you had an FNC lower that was drilled for the auto sear, and you took the sear out, you could sell the lower, complete with sear pin hole, as a "sear ready" lower, and ATF wouldn't care at all.


It makes sense, I guess, since a.) the sear is registered and numbered, and b.) the lower isn't a gun.

Correct. There are 4 or 5 statutory definitions of MG, only one of which involves shooting more than one shot per trigger pull. The recevier of a MG is a MG, which is what you get when you drill that hole.


Correct. Another definition of MG is a part designed and intended to convert a weapon to fire more than one shot per trigger pull.


Correct, and I think from time to to you do see sear ready stuff for sale.

One more question (maybe) -

If some company was to start making new uppers for the FNC, say in 6.8 or 300 whisper-

1. They would have to sell the upper as a firearm, make you buy it from them thru a gun dealer and do the NICs check and everything.

2. You could attach any lower you wanted to your new upper, correct? Including the one with the sear in it? Because the sear is the machine gun.


If I'm reading this situation correctly, the FNC full auto sear is more or less identical to having a M16 RDIAS, with the exception that when you buy a new upper, the upper is treated like a firearm.


The reason I'm asking about this is - the FNC is basically an AK47 with a modular lower on it, almost identical to the AR lower. With 3,000+ sears floating around, you know that sooner or later somebody is going to start making accessories for it.

You can already buy barrels, picatinny scope mounts, and quad rails for it.

I'm wondering how it will all be handled legally if and when some shop starts cranking out new uppers.

Here is my understanding of the situation. For many years the ATF themselves appeared to be confused as to what exactly was the legal firearm “receiver” of an FNC. They issues multiple letters and rulings over in the 80’s and early 90’s to manufacturers, importers, and individuals that appear to contradict themselves. Sometimes they reported the upper as the firearm and sometimes the lower.

This is most likely why you see some FNC’s with the serial number on the upper (as the rest of the world generally considers the upper the serial numbered part), some on the lower, and some probably came in marked both ways just to be safe and/or satisfy European regulations that the upper needed serialization and US law that the lower did.

However as some point the ATF seemed to settle on the fact that the lower was the actual receiver.

S&H made their sears that were anything but drop in as they required a mill and drill operation as well as modifications to the bolt and FCG components.

How exactly S&H was allowed to perform these mill and drill operations through the 90’s on what the ATF primarily considered the “receiver” at the time without running afoul of the ATF I am not sure. The ATF clearly went after fleming for registering AK sears and milling and drilling AK receivers to fit them shortly after the ban went into effect. Maybe S&H got lucky, maybe the ATF didn’t care because he was sort of marrying the sear to the gun by stamping the sear serial number into the lower, maybe he had a letter saying the upper was the gun…who knows. I certainly don’t know the rational was but from the other actions the ATF took on other folks modifying receivers in the late 80’s and early 90’s (like fleming and volmer) I am not sure how S&H escaped for as long as they did. Eventually S&H ran out of sears for sale around 2003ish so maybe the ATF figured it wasn’t work the effort.

Fast forward to the SCAR and expensive machinegun era (post 2004) and a big lot of raw sears went on the market via his former partner that were not controlled by S&H anymore and there were no shortage of enterprising individuals who wanted a full auto SCAR or a cheap M16 and they were not shy about writing the ATF about their grand plans on how they were going to shoehorn an FNC sear into x, y, or z gun.

The ATF of course said no “these sears only go into FNCs” but some of these folks persisted and would say how is my plan to mill and drill any different than what S&H does. Apparently somebody went knocking on S&Hs door and told them to stop. S&H came up with another method where they built a real simple body for the sear to rotate on but it still required a milling operation to the lower as well as a vertical drilling operation for a set screw.to lock the new machined body into place.

Suppossedly (if you believe the folks at NFATCA) the ATF got fed up and was going to rule that all installed FNC sears are now married to their host guns forever and any uninstalled sears were now contraband/improperly registered and could never be installed going forward. The NFATCA claims to have worked out a deal where the ATF changed their position that the lower was no longer the receiver but the upper was now the receiver, which allowed conversions to continue as the “receiver” was no longer being modified in the process and installing an FNC sear was more akin to prepping an HK semi-auto trigger pack to make it “sear ready”. However, as part of the ruling it seems as if the ATF was trying to fix the number of FNCs out there by claiming that any domestically produced FNC clone could not be called an FNC.

That said you do have (in my opinion) a few problems if you convert a FNC lower to be used with a sear and then pull the sear. Basically the modifications if you pull the sear will allow the hammer to now follow the bolt forward (slam fire) if the sear is removed and the selector is move to the auto position. As we all know what happens to people who pull the disconnector out of their AR15 or installing M16 FCG parts for fun,.pulling a registered sear out of an FNC leaves you with a very similar mechanical state as a host AR15 with it’s DIAS removed. Granted the FNC has a firing pin spring vs the AR15 so whether it would fire if the hammer rides the bolt home I can’t say, I have never personally tried and would never suggest anybody to try. However, I do know the only thing holding the hammer back when the selector is an auto is the registered sear and I wouldn’t want to find out if the ATF has soft enough primers that it would work.

So if you did pull the sear out you really should theoretically only have one set of modified fire control group parts and move them with the sear the same as with a M16 DIAS. That leaves you with a problem if you try and move the sear to another non-FNC platform as you would now have two sets of modified FCG parts leaving you with one gun that could “maybe” go auto by slam firing. I guess you could be ok if you moved all the modded parts from one FNC to another but unless the FNC is damaged you might as well just leave it all as one gun.

However to answer your original question if somebody created new FNC uppers, than theoretically yes you could move you modded lower around as it is basically just like an HK triggerpack at this point. Whether or not somebody comes out with new FNC uppers is probably low odds. How many people are going to buy an FNC upper. Best case you sell one to every sear owner which is overall a pretty small group of a couple thousand people. There is a lot of time and money to develop from scratch the stampings for the receiver and rails, machine trunions, figure out the heat treating necessary, jigs to hold it all together for welding, liability insurance, employee overhead, etc. Plus you would need barrels, bolt carriers, bolts, recoil spring guides, etc. and sell it all for less than $3000 which is what somebody can just go buy a whole FNC for. Nobody has even come out with a 22 kit for these yet, which would be infinitely cheaper and easier to produce and would probably sell a whole lot better than 5.56 uppers.

Hopefully this helps.

Thanks, guys, for some very interesting reading.


It sounds to me like selling a lower or FCG that has been modified for a FA sear would put you in a legal grey zone.

To me, any sort of grey zone with gun laws, especially NFA laws, should be avoided like an island of lepers.

I guess it would be pointless to to seperate the sear from the lower or FCG anyway, since it cost $600 to get the lower modified and there isn't exactly an abundence of them around.

If you damaged the lower bad enough to need a replacement, the prudent thing to do would be mash the old lower and any damaged FCG parts with a hammer.


Regarding the future of the FNC -

It's said that somewhere between 3000 and 6000 FNC sears are out there and I have seen them numbered past 3500.

And there are like 250,000 guns in the NFA registry.

Out of all those 250,000 guns, how many represent 223 caliber assault rifles?

If there are 20,000 M16s in the registry, I would guess there are maybe 30,000 223 caliber assault rifles total. Or maybe 40,000, who knows?

That means the FNC sears represent 10% to maybe 20% of the total number of 223 assault rifles in the registry.

That's a large percentage.

Also, FNCs are not some crappy failed commercial grade mutt that nobody wants. They are a military contract AK47 / M16 hybrid, an excellent gun by an excellent maker.

When M16s pass into the high end collector nosebleed $20K+ price range, a lot of guys are going to suddenly realize they are madly in love with their little $3k FNC sear.


This isn't wishful thinking, it's sort of virtually guaranteed if the NFA registry remains in it's present closed state. If it opens, all bets are off.

That in itself was a very interesting read. Thanks for typing all that.

I recently entered the 223 MG game and ended up with a RR M16. I did look close at the FNC, but as someone pointed out, if I could afford a converted FNC plus a spare semi-FNC for parts, I could afford an M16 and get the modularity of the platform and all the spare parts I wanted.

I'd still like to have an FNC...Maybe Cyborg is right and one day the flood gate will open for spares and increase the popularity of the guns causing sear prices to sky rocket. We'll see.

There is no chance that a 3,000 to 6,000 world class assault rifles are going to be continually ignored in this NFA market.

The same desperation for a legal happy switch that makes a $3 piece of crap like a Lightning Link be worth $6,000 is going to act on the FNC, it's only a matter of time and tide.

The FNC is a remarkably well designed, modular gun. What could stop it from having it's day in the sun once M16s become completely unaffordable?

Is it not literally the runner-up 223 assault rifle, #2 spot right behind the M16?

I would agree that given a long enough time horizon, the eventual end of readily available semi-auto FNCs, and the overall continued appreciation of machineguns in general that eventually it may become financially viable for somebody to produce an FNC clone to support the NFA population with sears.

However right now given that anybody can pick up a semi FNC for $3000 and I doubt anybody could spool up to make FNCs for that price if you have to make everything in house. Maybe eventually semi FNCs will reach 5,000, 6,000, $7000 dollars or more but it's been years since the last batch of sears went up for sale and prices on FNCs really have not moved by more than a grand in 8+ years.

The only person who has tried to make an FNC clone and even gotten close was Todd Grove (RIP) at Ohio Rapid Fire. His plan was to make receivers (which at the time the "receiver" was the lower half) and import parts kits from Malyasia. He made a bunch of lower receivers which ended up being slightly out of spec as he has to reverse engineer the whole deal, but his parts kits never made it. I don't know what the hangup was on the kits but he sold a decent number of receivers to people and promised parts kits later and then never made it. Eventually as time passed there was a non-sporting barrel import ban put in place and eventually Todd passed away. I beleive that the guy behind Essential Arms also was trying to bring a semi auto FNC to market for years but could never get it off the ground either.

It would seem to me the only way to make it financially viable is if somebody could get a decent number of kits imported so you could minimize the tooling and R&D cost. The downside is that nowadays you have to make the upper (since it is now the receiver) and it is a stamped part. I am not a machinist or die maker by trade but it's my impression that making good & consistent stamped parts where you have to create multiple dies that work in sequence is a much more dicey affair than leasing a CNC machine and telling the computer to cut a lower from a hunk of aluminum based off a CAD drawing and sit back and watch chips fly.

To be successful in making semi FNCs you are going to need to have NFA owners be wiling to pay big money for a clone FNC to support their sear/s (at which point you are back to the why not just by an M16 for the price of your seargun and spare clone) or be able to make them cheap enough that the masses could buy them as a semi-auto for $2000 and have your product compete with sig556s and ARs for peoples share of wallet.

I agree that in the future it may happen, it's just that multiple folks have tried and failed as the general rifle market doesnt really support a new semi-auto rifle in any production volume once it cost more than roughly $2,000. So essentially you are going to have to wait for NFA owners to support you and that wont happen until real FN-FNCs cost alot more than what you can make a small volume clone for.

However, maybe some FNC aficionado will hit the powerball and make a run of guns just for something to do between waterskiing behind their yacht and lighting expensive cigars with $100 bills.

One might argue that the AC556 and the FNC are tied for that position. The FNC gets points for being a proper military rifle and the AC556 gets points for having many parts in common with the Mini-14, plus being a co-star on the A-Team.

I'd still rather have an FNC though.

I think this topic breaks down into two neat halves:


PRODUCTION OF NEW SEMI-AUTO FNCs –

There is a giant number of excellent semi-auto 223 guns on the market. Nobody would buy some new production $5,000 FNC clone when they can get a genuine Colt 6920 for $1,000.

The only way that production of new FNCs is going to happen is if a big fat heap of super-cheap FNC parts kits show up.

Then you’d probably see somebody start stamping (or casting) new receivers and guns being put together just like they did with the Galil and FN-FAL.

The FNC is (or was) being made by three different companies, the potential for surplus parts kits is definitely there.

Don’t forget, people were giving their Galils away because of the “no spare parts” problems and then suddenly a tidal wave of parts kits showed up.

This parts kits scenario is definitely possible, but I’m not holding my breath waiting.

Let’s just say it would be nice, the FNC is an awesome gun and a lot of guys would be very happy to buy a cheap kit-franken-gun version.


THE FUTURE OF THE FNC SEARS –

Nobody needs to make new lowers or make new FNC rifles for the NFA market.

The rumor is that there are 6,000 FNC sears and 6,000 FNC rifles in the USA. That means there is an adequate supply of hosts for all the sears.

In reality, I have only ever heard of sears being numbered to 3,500 or so. If that’s true, there are PLENTY of FN hosts for all the sears.


Let’s assume there are 3,500 FNC sears. That is a HUGE number of machine guns.

3,500 FNC sears would mean there is one FNC sear for every three Colt factory machine guns in the NFA registry. See what I mean?

3,500 FNC sears means there are two FNC sears for every one Colt M16A2 in the registry. See what I mean?

3,500 guns is a tiny number on the semi-auto market, but in the NFA registry, it is HUGE. There are a lot, lot, lot fewer assault rifles in the NFA registry than people think.


Right now, semi-auto FNCs are expensive specialty collector safe-queens and people are just sitting on their registered FNC sears.

The reason they are just sitting on the sears is because putting together a FNC will cost you around $6700. Plus you’d be smart to buy a spare FNC for parts. That’s within a $2000 of buying an M16 clone or conversion, which is a MUCH more useful and versatile option.

But the M16 prices are climbing even in this awful economy and it’s going to leave a lot of guys behind.

Picture this future conversation from the amazing world of tomorrow:

Fred: “I would love to buy an M16 to hose ammo through, but they now cost more than a new Ford F150.”

Ralph: “Why don’t you take the FNC sear you have been sitting on and install it into an FNC and shoot that instead?”

Fred: “No, I would rather just have nothing at all that an spend another $3,500 and have an excellent, brand new in the box, world class, 223, full auto AK47 derivative.”

Ralph: “Good thinking. Just stick that FNC sear you paid $3k for in a drawer and forget about it. FOREVER.”

Can you picture the above conversation happening?


As far as making accessories and uppers for the full auto FNC goes, the lower is a two-pin modular unit almost identical to the AR15 lower.

Anything that’s being made for the AR could be readily adapted.

There is already an aftermarket starting up for the FNC, you can already buy aftermarket firing pins, barrels, picatinny scope rails, 3 round burst kits, and two companies already make quad rails.



Everyone knows that I have undying love for the FNC, but the above is just stating the obvious.

No rifle that is plentiful, high quality, useful, and inexpensive is just going to rot on the NFA vine forever.

I can't say you're wrong, but I can't tell if and when you might be right. However, if parts kits actually make it into the country, the dynamics of the situation would indeed change immediately and possibly with little or no warning depending on how tight lipped the importer happens to be. I haven't seen an FNC receiver, but if the geometry is favorable to casting, that might be how it goes over rather than somebody re-engineering the progressive dies (I hadn't thought of that point). That happened on the G3 (Special Weapons cast receivers) and the only reason domestic stamped receivers became available (to my knowledge) was that people got the progressive dies from European factories that closed down their lines. IIRC, even PTR falls in this category.

Also an interesting point about the M16, which is sort of a "rising tide floats all boats" type of argument. The relationship already seems to exist such that:



If I scrape up enough money for another 223 MG, perhaps I will look closely at the FNC option again. I thought I would want a belt fed, but that might not get shot much due to ammo costs.

Very good point, but I fixed your equation for ya.

The M16 is always going to have that extra price bump in there just because of the incredo-popularity of the AR15 platform.

The FNC is a truly excellent gun, but the AR platform is royalty, the popularity is almost beyond belief.

Given the gigantic aftermarket support for the M16, I'm surprized that the price bumper is only $2K or so.

There are folks who have made dies from scratch. TB from SW comes to mind as his 9MM and 40S&W receivers are all made from dies he had made here in the US but he didnt start off this way.

It seems the key to most of these types of operations getting off the ground is cheap parts kits. A company gets a bunch of kits from overseas, makes a receiver from a CNC or casting, a minimal amount of 922r parts and is able to sell a bunch of guns to the public between 1 and 2K where the originals are some multiple of that cost and play on people's nostaligia for that particular gun. Eventually the builder starts to run out of parts and makes more and more in house to the point where they end up making most of the gun in the US over time, just like DSA , Arsenal, or PTR. or they just give us and go out of business.

Century Arms has built an entire business model around this. They import by the container load cut up HK33s, or FALs, or Galil's, team up with others to make receivers and much of misc parts to satisfy 922 and voila, kit guns for the masses.

I suspect that if anybody has the connections and checkbook needed to get kits over here it would be Century. The issue is that the Belgians dont make the gun anymore , the swedes won't even sell you a spring for assault rifle no matter how much money you throw at them, and that pretty much leave Pinad in Malyasia.

I hope one day somebody can make a deal with Pinad and get kits here as I really like the FNC (I have two of them) so would definately be the beneficiary of new FNCs to use as hosts and parts.

Anybody who is interested in FNCs should also have a look at the following thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/321532_Deep_thoughts_on_FNC_sears___.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/321532_Deep_thoughts_on_FNC_sears___.html


What's the highest FNC sear serial number that anyone has seen? I personally have seen them in the 3500 range.

Two additional comments:

–– When Curtis Higgins installed sears in semi FNCs, he filed an amended Form 3/4 to list the serial number of the host firearm in box 4h. My understanding is that ATF required this amendment as part of its approval of manufacture of the FNC sears. It does not constitute a permanent "marrying" of sear and host, but it is a special condition that only applies to FNCs (as opposed to RDIAS, where there is no such requirement) and that it stems from the design of the sear itself.

–– The inclusion of the "you cannot call new clones FNCs" in the receiver determination letter is the "other shoe" from an earlier determination that FNC sears cannot be installed in anything other than an FNC.

ATF does go by the letter of the law when they want to, so if new production clones are not branded as FNCs, I believe that Tech and Legal Branches will prohibit the installation of a sear-converted FNC lower on a new "not-an-FNC" production upper.

Of course, that will not happen unless or until someone gears up to make new "not-an-FNC" upper receivers .... but the potential for ATF to ban that application is certainly something that would have to be considered when and if a manufacturer decides to spend the $$$ to produce a clone.

if you had an FNC sear in an FNC lower and you stuck the lower on an FNC upper that had "Century" stamped on it instead of "FN", how could they legally enforce that?

I'm not a lawyer but it seems like it would put them in a strange spot.

Read some of the threads about ATF's current courtroom antics.

The problem is that they are part of the U.S. Department of Justice, which is the largest employer of lawyers in the world, and all paid for through tax dollars.

If they decide to take a stance, they have no qualms about burying you and your lawyer in endless legal maneuvering.

Yes, sometimes you can beat them, even with their limitless resources. But it will cost you many, many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars .... and not many folks are willing to spend that much on a single case.

If getting approval to put those remaining 3,000 sears in clone uppers cost $500,000 in legal fees ... how many would go for it, given that court approval is not guaranteed?

Again, just playing the Devil's Advocate here, based on what I have seen ATF do in the past. Your Mileage May Vary.

Well, this is all academic anyway.

Since the 223 is an ideal cartridge, 99.999% of the owners wouldn't care about all this topic anyway.

I mean it's ideal in terms of the stupendous popularity of the cartridge, the low recoil, and the relatively low cost of the excellent quality surplus ammo.

And somebody could make a 22 LR kit real easy that would install in the original FN upper like the existing CMMG kits for the AR15.


I guess legally you could convert an original FN FNC upper to 6.8 or 300 whisper or whatever, but it would be pretty expensive because of the high price tag on original FNCs. I don't think too many people would take that route. Spending a heap of money to convert an expensive gun to another cartridge that cost 5x as much to shoot probably wouldn't be a popular option.

That may have been the case when he controlled the sear population and was actually filiingthe F3/F4 when the sear transferred out of is inventory in host guns. However, I don't beleive he has had any way to amend the NFA registry on any of the sears he has installed since 2003ish as the owners sent the sears to him for installation and there was no NFA paperwork trail.

My first sear went from the Seslar estate to John Norrell to a group buy dealer to my dealer to me. I sent my sear plus a host to S&H with the sear in a pill bottle and a xerox of my F4. Since the sear was papered to me I don't beleive S&H could ammend the registration on my sear at that point.

However, I completely agree with you that the cost to fight the government to install an FNC sear into a non-FN host gun isn't financially viable or worth the headache. It seems that most folks who really get into NFA stuff figure out a way to become a dealer/SOT and get posties and/or become a C2 SOT and roll their own. You can pay alot of FFL /SOT and ITAR fees for the cost of a decent lawyer to fight all of this, why not spend those dollars on a sure thing (like a license) and get whatever fun inventory you want and sell a handful of guns to stay legitimate.That seems to be the path of least resistance for most folks anyway.

Wait a second, something doesn't compute here.

1. The machine gun is the FNC sear.

2. It can be installed in an FNC lower even though milling and drilling is required, because the FNC upper is the firearm. That makes the lower nothing more than a FNC trigger pack.

3. Only an original FNC upper, can be called an FNC.

4. How does the above prevent you from sticking the FNC lower onto a domestically manufactured FNC upper? Aren't AR15 RDIAS put into guns which are not technically called a "Colt AR15"? You could make a AR lower called a "Smithers Corp XR-27" and drop the RDIAS into it.

The letter below says you cannot name a domestically manufactured FNC upper an "FNC" but it doesn't say you cannot attach your FNC trigger pack to "FNCX" or whatever you call your new upper.

If sticking an FNC sear-equipped lower on any FNC upper suddenly turns the upper into a machine gun, then your'e creating two machine guns (the sear and the upper) and it would mean that ALL FNC uppers are de-facto machine guns.

Because: National Firearms Act (NFA) at 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), define the term “machinegun” as “any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.”

Seems to me that swapping a lower onto an upper makes the upper something that can be "readily restored to shoot automatically." Sticking the lower onto an FNC upper takes about 10 seconds.

You see what I'm saying?

Or am I missing something?


Here's the ATF letter on the FNC -


18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3): DEFINITION OF FIREARM
18 U.S.C. 922(o): TRANSFER OR POSSESSION OF MACHINEGUN
18 U.S.C. 921(a)(23): DEFINITION OF MACHINEGUN
26 U.S.C. 5845(b): DEFINITION OF MACHINEGUN
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITION OF FIREARM FRAME OR RECEIVER

The upper assembly of the Fabrique Nationale Herstal SA (FN) FNC rifle is classified as the receiver of the firearm for purposes of the Gun Control Act, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, and the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53.

ATF Rul. 2008-1

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has recently received inquiries concerning the installation of a registered sear into the FN FNC rifle. These sears, when installed, allow a semiautomatic FNC rifle to be converted into a machinegun. Prior to May 19, 1986, a number of these sears made for the FNC rifle were registered as machineguns in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). These sears were required to be registered in the NFRTR as machineguns because they are parts designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun.

In order to install a registered FNC sear into a host FNC rifle, a hole must be drilled into the lower assembly and a portion of the solid area of the lower assembly between the magazine well and the compartment for the trigger mechanism must be milled out. If the lower assembly were to be classified as the receiver, any such modifications would create new machinegun receiver, potentially in violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(o) (prohibiting the transfer or possession of a machinegun except for official Federal, State, or local government use).

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) at 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(23), and the National Firearms Act (NFA) at 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), define the term “machinegun” as “any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.” The term also includes “the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.” (See also 27 CFR 478.11, 479.11). Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, section 478.11 defines a “firearm receiver” as, “[t]hat part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.”

The FNC rifle consists of two major assemblies, the upper assembly and the lower assembly. The lower assembly houses the trigger, hammer, disconnector, safety/selector, and an automatic trip lever in the automatic version. It also incorporates a pistol grip and a magazine release. The upper assembly houses a barrel that is attached to the upper assembly by means of a barrel extension. It also houses the bolt carrier with gas piston affixed, gas tube and handguard, bolt, operating rod and spring. The two assemblies are mounted together with a front and rear takedown pin. Since 1981, ATF has classified the lower assembly as the receiver for purposes of the GCA and NFA.

ATF has reconsidered its classification of the lower assembly of the FNC rifle as the receiver. The upper assembly of the FNC rifle is more properly classified as the receiver. The upper assembly of the FNC rifle houses the bolt and provides a connection point for the barrel. Moreover, the upper assembly is classified as the receiver on similar types of firearms, to include other FN rifles, such as the FN FAL and FN SCAR. Reclassification of the upper assembly as the receiver will also allow the continued installation of a lawfully registered sear into an FNC rifle because no modification to the receiver, which is the upper assembly, is required to properly install the sear.

Held, the upper assembly of the FN FNC rifle is the receiver of the firearm.

Held further, in the event a licensed manufacturer in the United States manufactures a new firearm that is substantially similar to the FN FNC rifle, it must be marked with a model designation other than “FNC.” To the extent this ruling is inconsistent with any previous ATF classifications, they are hereby superseded.

Date approved: May 27, 2008

Michael J. Sullivan
Acting Director

The answer is that nobody really knows what will happen as nobody has ever (at least to my knowledge) ever produced a domestic FNC upper receiver much less submitted it to the ATF for use with a sear. Technically ORF made what were "receivers" at the time and the lowers he made were "Sear Ready" with the slot already milled into them However, I beleive you still had to drill the hole though but it did make the lower work easier and the ATF didnt say crap about it at the time.

That said it "appears" based on the ruling you referenced that the ATF is trying to limit the guns these sears can be installed into. On the F4 both of my FNCs are registered on the Model in box 4d says "FNC". However, on both of my Lightning Links it says "M15" in the same box. Obviously it is designed for the AR family but there is nothing on either of my F4s that specifies a specific AR15 model or manufacturer it is to be used in and I am sure not planning on tempting fate by figuring out how to shoehorn it into my Sig 552 (although I would love to). I don't own a RDIAS so dont know how they are papered. However, maybe by the facet that the original FNC Sear F2 registration stating FNC they are basing their opinion off that.

My guess (and this is purely speculation on my part) is that the ATF sees the writing on the wall if they agree to let FNC sears go into other guns. If an FNC sear can go into a SCAR what about a HK sear into an M60 or a lighting link into a G36 and they are being overly protective. If you open the legal floodgates, there are no shortage of mechanical geniuses to figure out how to make it work. Just look at thoes M249s that run on HK trigger packs.

The net is that the ATF over the past couple years seems pretty adament about not installing these in anything but FN-FNC and you are looking for "logic" in the ATF reasoning, which you are not going to find The ATF also doesnt really play by a set of rules and kind of makes shit up as they go along to fit their needs at the time, which is to limit machineguns to the best of their ability. You are correct that they have never said specifically "no" to installing a sear in a mechanical FNC clone, but then again to my knowledge nobody has sent them a domestic clone sample, a sear converted lower and said "is this ok" either.

My take is that given enough funds, lawyers, and patience the law is probably on your side and you have a decent shot of winning if you were to sue the ATF or purposely have them prosecute you so you could make a point. The problem is it all boils back down to time and money equation over a $3000 piece of metal that only a couple thousand people in the whole world care about and of which there are still no shortage of originals to install into. Unfortunatley so far nobody has stepped up to the plate to make a clone FNC upper, submit it to the ATF with one of higgins converted lowers installed, and then sued them if they say no.

I would love to get a sear for my baby

Well then, buy one! Doncha know they are cheap and plentiful?

Seriously, go for it. You will not regret it.

This

you got the hard part, the gun.

The sears are everywhere-ish

i see sears for 3,000 and less.... GO GET ONE!!

absolutely, get one.

Presently, the gun shop yakkety yak on every gun board is that the spare parts problem with the FNC is this insurmountable sound barrier.

Also, everyone assumes there is an unlimited supply of sears sitting around.

That works out to a free gift for you, you get to buy a $10K sear for $3K.

Ok how much does the spare parts thing really matter? Are these things that prone to breaking? I'm guessing that if you take decent care of it and don't shoot 1,000 rounds as fast as u can it will be fine. Anyone here have problems with theirs?

It doesn't matter until it does. I have no direct experience here, but the firing pin seems to have issues from what I've read. DS Arms has firing pins though. Anything else is a crap shoot, but the likelihood of needed another major part replaced would have to be very slim.

The FNC is a very robust design and doesnt break many parts, so that is the positive part. The weakest part is the firing pin and as mentioned thoes are available from DS Arms. So no harm no foul if these break.

The two most difficult parts to obtain (short of buying a semi FNC to cannabalize) is the bolt and the slide assembley or "carrier".

I have seen both of these parts broken and folks posting over on the FNC forum on Uzitalk trying to find these parts to basically no avail. Granted I think I have seen one bolt and two broken carriers posted on boards over the years, so it's not common, but yes they do break. I have also come across one or two incomplete "parts kit" FNC semis on gunbroker over the years where somebody obviously broke something, bought a semi to harvest parts, and was then selling the rest off. The weak part on the bolt/carrier assembley appears to the the ear on the carrier that rotates the bolt and the welds on the gas piston to the carrier. If the welds between the piston and the carrier break it can usually be repaired by tig welding it back together. However, if the ear breaks you are pretty much SOL due to the stress on this part and the difficultly to weld it back and maintain the proper geometry.

I would think that if you bust the carrier or bolt you are basically in store for purchasing a semi FNC to get one if you want a replacement in any reasonable timeframe. To put this in perspective, I have been actively looking for FNC parts for the better part of 8 years ( checking sturm, subguns, and gunbroker on a pretty regular basis) and have come across exactly two ads for bolt carriers. I was too late on one ad but I snagged a complete bolt and carrier assembley from the other. It ended up costing me $800 and that was probably 5+ years ago.

I have also seen one or two reports of broken hammers over the years as well but there does seem to be a small supply of hammers floating around. It not like ordering a new AR hammer from Brownells, but there are spare hammers for sale from time to time. It may just take you a couple weeks or months to find someone willing to part with one, but I do seem them on gunbroker once or twice a year.

So there in lies the risk. You could shoot an FNC for years and never break anything and have an M16 equivalent for $6500 or your second mag dump you could break the carrier or bolt and be in store for a $3000+ bil to buy another semi FNC to get one of those parts. The market has priced these guns accordingly as it is a gamble. The cost of one full auto FNC plus one semi auto spare FNC for critical parts puts you into M16 registered receiver territory price-wise.

That's a fair assessment of the situation.

Right now the price of an FNC = M16 price - a spare FNC for parts price - spare part anxiety discount

If and when spare parts kits are imported or CNC machined parts start being produced, I would expect the price of full auto FNCs to inflate to be right around the price of the M16 registered receiver guns.

There is indeed a big fat "gun shop bullshit / part anxiety" discount on the FNC right now, but on the other hand there is a bona fide "collector market exotic tacticool rifle" premium on the semi-auto hosts, so it's hard to tell what the final price on the full auto version will be if and when the parts problem disappears.

Also, lets face it, the sears are going to wind up getting installed sooner or later and the supply of loose sears will dry up.

I guess it would wind up somewhere between M16 clone prices and M16 Colt factory prices. The full auto Galils are right up there with M16 factory guns, so who knows, time will tell.

I do not think so.

I think they will only draw a little more money then a KAC556

If you had a new in the box semi-auto FNC in the orginal factory cosmoline, you could get $5K+ for it.

That's no AC556 style collector market. That's hardcore "pre war luger" type collector prices.

The FNC is an exotic military assault rifle, not a badly designed commercial plinker.

But we shall see.

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