Look What I Found!!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=231114749


I bet you could get this thing to work.

I think its asking for as ELVIS says T-R-O-U-B-L-E

Hell yeah that could be made workable very easy!!

I would stay away...

Yup, that is a live, unregistered machine gun. Worth ten years in federal prison plus $250k fine. Sigh.

Has anyone with a GB account contacted them to say hey, that's not demilled properly LOL

its got the mag well cut in half- its not useable in its present condition. No more a machine gun than a shoestring is

Why you might think it is not useable, in the current condition it has yet to be properly demilled. Read the section from the ATF's NFA handbook below, emphasis added to the bold and italic portions.


2.5.1 Removal of machineguns and silencers from the scope of the NFA. Machineguns are defined to include the receiver of a machinegun and the definition of silencer includes each component of a silencer. Therefore, to remove these weapons from the provisions of the NFA, the receiver of a machinegun or all the components of a silencer must be destroyed. The preferred method for destroying a machinegun receiver is to completely sever the receiver in specified locations by means of a cutting torch that displaces at least one-quarter inch of material at each cut location. ATF has published rulings concerning the preferred destruction of specific machineguns. A machinegun receiver may also be properly destroyed by means of saw cutting and disposing of certain removed portions of the receiver. To ensure that the proposed saw cutting of a particular machinegun receiver is acceptable, FTB should be contacted for guidance and approval of any alternative destruction proposal. Note: a machinegun receiver that is not properly destroyed may still be classified as a machinegun, particularly in instances where the improperly destroyed receiver is possessed in conjunction with other component parts for the weapon.

It doesn't meet current demil regs, that's for sure.

One could easily assemble that receiver chunk with the proper fcg, attach it to an upper at the takedown pin, HOLD a magazine in place with the left hand and have a fully functioning, if slightly awkward, machinegun.

The remaining former pin hole visible in the magwell indicates it was a pinned magblock 9mm Colt SMG receiver.

That auction right there is bad juju, and an ignorant seller trying to make a expeditious buck or an ATF Sting I'm glad most of us know better I wouldn't touch that thing with a 50 foot pole.

Why does the autosear pin hole look in the white, vs the other ones looking correctly anodized?

It was a conversion. Check out the engraved AUTO marking and lack of selector stops.

The guy's feedback is 666.

Nope, the fact that the inside machining is properly done AND anodized indicate it's an original M16 SMG receiver. Any whiteness around the sear hole is probably just wear or crud.

OK, marked fire not semi, engraved auto and no selectors stops?

"easily" get it to work? What you said did not sound too easy to do. When you hold that upper and that mag in place, somewhere along this magical journey you will need a third arm. I think that the ATF could get it to work but then again they could get a bolt action to fire full auto after they replace it with something else- and end up not getting a conviction, they have been wrong on more than one allegation- it just costs money/deep pockets to fight them! I doubt this is a sting and I doubt you would get busted for buying this but what do I know? If it came with internals and was priced at $25 I would buy it
This is not intended as a flame, it is only another opinion with no legal value as I am not a fed or prosecutor or judge for that matter- I know what the regs say but they leave grey areas

The takedown pin is still there and would hold the upper to the lower and in proper relation to the FCG. One hand could easily hold the magazine. The mag catch is even still there, for christ's sake, so the magazine might just lock into the upper enough to not need to be held, or the mag could be duct-taped to the lower. Not really a problem for the off hand to stabilize the upper to the lower.

As I said - a fully functioning, if slightly awkward, machinegun.

Lacking an extensive library of selector stop and markings photos, I cannot answer you definitively. To assert that the auto sear pin hole was drilled and left unanodized, while the interior milling WAS anodized makes no sense, to me, either.

I still think its a magical journey of ifs and what ifs but hey, ATF has taken that journey before and lost. They have also won so take that for what its worth............

Dang. I would not want to have that thing listed on my account.

The reason why it is still considered a live machine gun is as tonyk has said, it has not been properly demilled. Only the front part of the magwell has been removed. It would not be that difficult for someone good at welding to slice up a modern magwell and match it to the front of this one making an unregistered and illegal reweld M16.

Looking at the hole on the magwell; I'd dare to say that this receiver was a 9mm SMG (Model 635) lower receiver.



Also, that receiver looks repairable since it's a clean sawcut and not a weld cut. ANyone with enough skill can chop up the front of the magwell from a semi lower and weld it on and wham! An illegal full auto receiver; aka, a 1-way ticket to the big house courtesy of your friendly folks at the BATFE.

Maybe I'm missing something, but if your intent is to create an illegal MG, wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to just drill a semi lower for the auto sear pin? Why go to all the trouble of cutting another lower and rewelding if you can just put a semi lower in your drill press and make a new hole?

First off, FredMan, conversion of an AR receiver to FA requires more than just drilling the autosear pin hole. That's why we talk of milling-and-drilling, not just drilling.

Nevertheless ....

Firearms regulations are written to be broad enough to cover all designs. And there are advantages to that for both enforcement, and for those of us who must comply with these laws –– do you want one law that covers only designs by Gene Stoner, another that affects only John Browning's creations, and a third that only applies to guns designed by Uzi Galil? Or how about instead, we allow ATF to examine each and every cut example, and decide whether or not it is still a machine gun? It would be chaos.

The AR is one of the designs in which there is an inexpensive semi version which offers a conversion alternative. The same is not true for many, many other MG designs.

And ATF's demil (demilitarization) standards are designed to avoid situations like the Cole's Uzi parts kit fiasco a few years ago, when the demil rules were so poorly applied that you could buy a couple of parts kits, find one with a long front receiver section and another with a long rear one, weld them together and have a running MG. (Tech Branch actually did this with duct tape, and got it to fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger.) Which left ATF going knocking on doors and confiscating the Cole kits.

And kits really are the reason MG owners want precise demil rules and implementation: Cutting the receivers allows the rest of the MG to be sold for parts, and in many cases, these kits are the only remaining source to keep our MGs working. We need those parts to keep shooting, and at the same time, we don't want every purchase of a parts kit to bring ATF knocking on our doors. Sigh.

Today, ATF has specific instructions for demilling each type of MG receiver, but in general, the rule is: Chop it into three roughly equal pieces, and discard/destroy the center section. The auction receiver does not meet those standards.

YMMV.

Tony,

So it would appear that rewelding torchcut receivers into semi-auto receivers is difficult (if not impossible) with today's demil standards?

Yeah, it's difficult to impossible. You need to do it in a way that the new receiver will not accept full-auto parts. In addition, any designs which originally fired from an open bolt must by law be converted to closed-bolt. It's really easier to just start with a new virgin semi receiver.

Couldn't you just weld the autosear pin hole closed? Wouldn't it then be like a semi-auto AR15 lower receiver?

Based on the BATF history, the answer is no. A number of AK-47s were imported from China by Centurty a while back. Century welded up the extra full auto pin hole and then sold them as semi auto rifles. The BATF came down and said that once a lower receiver is a machine gun, its always a machine gun. All the owners had an amnesty period to return the weapons to Century or face criminal action for owning an unregistered machine gun.

So I would say no based on the BATF history.

Tony,

Thanks for the info. I guess the question I was really asking is: If one were so inclined to manufacture an illegal MG (and one would be a complete raving idiot to want to do so), wouldn't it be simpler to modify a semi lower than weld up a demilled MG one?

Absolutely. The problem is that receiver shown still IS a functional machinegun.

It would require no work at all other than reinstalling the missing parts to make it fire automatically, although the missing magazine well would require holding or taping the magazine in place.

Why the F would any dumbass buy that for 200+ dollars to begin with, and if they wanted an illegal MG why would you waste the money and time to weld up another cut up ass magwell back on there when all you gotcha do is drill a sear hole in a low shelf New Ar lower? Yeah thats not Demilled to spec at all just my rant

It's more than a simple hole, although I think the hole by itself might be the legal threshold. There is additional milling differences between semiauto, and full-auto receivers.

Please go into detail, taking notes Post prints too that would be nice LOL

Just in case anyone takes your request seriously: THE RULES FOR THIS FORUM

In particular:

In addition to the Forum Conduct Code that governs all of AR15.COM, we have one cardinal rule:

No questions about or discussion of anything illegal.

This means no questions like:

"Where do I drill the hole for the auto disconnector?"
"What parts are needed to convert my AR15 to an M16?"
"If I file off my sear, will my AR15 run full-auto?"

PLEASE do not try the "I would never do this, I just want to know how it's done" routine.

Also prohibited are links to other web sites that publish information on illegal conversions.

Sorry Tony_K I was just playin I know better....Wont happen again

ha, that was my thought. You think anyone with the ability to scrounge up $256 dollars would be smart enough, ie. IQ above room temperature, to go off and commit a felony on the down low vs. advertising it to the world via GB auction...

I bet if assembled with FA parts and ran the rear pin through an upper, it would function as intended. Anyone who owns this isnt even walking on thin ice anymore, thats trying to walk on ice cubes.

It ended at $340. Maybe the buyer will get to keep it.

I bet it will cost him a whole lot more than $340!!

Maybe the batf,fbi,dod,nypd and ct stae police are all waiting for his mailman to show up so they can bust him/ the buyer and throw him in jail for 10 years and fine him $ 10,000.00 -
seriously I doubt it......
its a waste of $340 bucks. I bought a cut up parts kit with a demilled lower that looked pretty much like that one. I stripped the lower and threw it out with the garbage. No swat team showed up, really, there was no drama!

One thing the regs don't make clear is all the demills done before they wrote the latest regs, are the old ones now in violation and need to be redemilled or what? Same with the multiple ways they have said a muzzle device needed to be attached to be considered permanent through the years, are the ones perm. attached to previous regs now illegal because they don't meet current regs? I know traditionally anything that was legal when it was done should still be legal due to grandfathering but how do you prove it? We are no longer innocent until proven guilty, if we run into a law enforcement officer with a MG or some other "questionable" weapon you're going to jail unless you prove your innocent.

You could easily make an auto sear that worked with just the third hole and a semi receiver that would function like a dias. , milling the receiver would only be neccesary to install a GI auto sear.

While ATF may not spell it out, the federal courts have made it clear that while ATF is empowered with setting and changing firearms regulations, it has no legal authority to "grandfather" anything –– if a rule change means that something which was not an NFA item now has become subject to the NFA, it must apply to all existing items.

Thus, if an item is correctly demilled, and then ATF increases the requirement for demilling such that the old reg is insufficient, any MGs demilled under the old regs are now live again (and, of course,unregistered).

The relevant case law is United States v. Cash, 149 F.3d 706 (7th Cir. 1998) .

The case involved unregistered drop-in auto sears which the defendants sold with the claim that they were made prior to 1981, when ATF Revenue Ruling 81-4 declared that they were machine guns in and of themselves. However, the ruling also noted: "This ruling will not be applied to auto sears manufactured before November 1, 1981."

The court overturned ATF's "exemption" for pre-1981 DIAS, saying:

Defendants believe that it places auto sears manufactured before November 1, 1981, outside all obligations laid by statute on the ownership and transfer of firearms. But nothing in the firearms statutes gives the Secretary
of the Treasury (or the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) the power to make exemptions to section 5845(b) and associated
legal obligations. The statute to which ATF Ruling 81-4 refers, 26 U.S.C. section 7805(b), provides that the Secretary cannot give
retroactive application to tax regulations and adds in section 7805(b)(8) that the "Secretary may prescribe the extent, if any, to
which any ruling (including any judicial decision or any administrative determination other than by regulation) relating to the internal revenue laws shall be applied without retroactive effect." Read in conjunction with section 7805(b)(8), the proviso in the fourth paragraph of ATF Ruling 81-4 means only that the Secretary will not collect any tax under 26 U.S.C. section section 5801, 5811, or 5821 on account of auto sears manufactured or transferred before November 1, 1981. The ruling does not –– and cannot –– excuse compliance with criminal laws applicable at the time of post-1981 transfers. Cash and Croyle transferred the auto sears in 1994 and 1995, when section 5845(b) and ATF Ruling 81-4 alike defined auto sears as machine guns; they therefore had to comply with the laws regulating transfers, such as 26 U.S.C. section 5841(b) ("Each firearm transferred shall be registered to the transferee by the transferor"). See also 26 U.S.C. section 5861(e) (making a violation of section 5841(b) criminal).

So if ATF rules that a machine gun cut today to the old standards is still a live MG, then any existing demils to those standards now are live machine guns.

Install all the parts on that lower and pin that on the bottom of a Shrike upper and see what happens, it is a machinegun.

Doesn't have to even be a shrike, it would likely run with a number of uppers. The mag release is still there.

ATF is looking into this.

Source??

Oh yeah? How you know that?

Day 1

Because I brought it to their attention through my nephew, who is an ATF intern. By policing ourselves perhaps we can keep some of the heat off the Title II community at large. Someone let me know if this line of thinking is wrong.

I'd rather not bring anything to the ATF's attention.

But at least this is a known illegal item, so that I don't care so much about. But nothing good comes from people asking the ATF to clarify on rulings they already passed. Always seems to go way out of our favor.

good on you. maybe this "criminal" will do a decade in federal prison because he was unfamiliar with the specifics of the law.

i don't know what kind of "heat" you think there is on "the title II community at large", but i don't see how potentially ruining someone's life over something so trivial helps anyone, nor do i see how tattling on each other for every little infraction helps to assuage this.

Copyright © 1996 - 2013 :: AR15.Com LLC :: All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.