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Make a knife out of AR400 steel?
5/19/2012 2:17:21 PM
Is this possible? Or is there something else I should look at for steel? Thanks
5/19/2012 5:42:20 PM
Not sure why you would. It's not really a blade steel. AR400 is a very abrasion resistant steel and quite strong, but not really designed to work as a blade steel.
What kind of knife do you want to make, and do you plan to try to heat treat it yourself or send it out? If doing it yourself, what equipment is available? Those factors are the main things that determine steel choice.
What kind of knife do you want to make, and do you plan to try to heat treat it yourself or send it out? If doing it yourself, what equipment is available? Those factors are the main things that determine steel choice.
5/19/2012 5:56:03 PM
Originally Posted By Remyrw:
Not sure why you would. It's not really a blade steel. AR400 is a very abrasion resistant steel and quite strong, but not really designed to work as a blade steel.
What kind of knife do you want to make, and do you plan to try to heat treat it yourself or send it out? If doing it yourself, what equipment is available? Those factors are the main things that determine steel choice.
Not sure why you would. It's not really a blade steel. AR400 is a very abrasion resistant steel and quite strong, but not really designed to work as a blade steel.
What kind of knife do you want to make, and do you plan to try to heat treat it yourself or send it out? If doing it yourself, what equipment is available? Those factors are the main things that determine steel choice.
I want to make a nice fighting knife. As for everything else I have no idea. I don't have any equipment. I was just thinking AR400 as its strong and wouldn't have to heat treated and it would be strong. But I know nothing about making knives.
5/19/2012 6:58:38 PM
Here's a link to some excellent reading on the usual steels for knives.
http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml
AR400 is actually a low carbon steel and does not really harden properly for a knife. You WOULD have to heat treat it, unless you got a piece already heat treated, in which case you'd have one hell of a time working it. AR400 is a specialty steel, meant to be incredibly tough and incredibly abrasion resistant, but actual hardness wasn't a top priority. It doesn't have to survive and hold it's shape in micro fine shapes like a knife edge. Trying to grind it already hardened would be extremely expensive in terms of supplies, you could go through a lot of grinding belts really fast.
Steel is always a trade off, a knife made from AR400 would be essentially a sharpened high end crow bar. Almost indestructible, but the edge would be gone the instant you cut anything tougher than air. You could probably hammer it through concrete without significant damage but it would be done as a knife shaped spike, not a cutting edge.
If you want super tough but also good edge retention and hardness look at CPM3V and CPMD2. Both are technically non stainless but not rust magnets generally. Both are very durable steels that can take a good edge and hold it. CPMS35V is another good choice that is now available and gives you stainless as well. You'll be sending any of these out for heat treating so you don't need to worry about the details of that when it comes to steel choice.
I'd grind a few from less expensive steels unless you don't mind an expensive learning curve. Your first few tend to be where you learn what does and doesn't work for a design and get a feel for the process. 1080 or 1084 are good choices since you can fairly easily home heat treat those, or find a local blacksmith or something to do it for you. Depending on where you are in PA it wouldn't be too hard to find someone.
Last, but most valuable, go here and read the stickies related to new makers. The information is literally priceless. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/741-Shop-Talk-BladeSmith-Questions-and-Answers
http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml
AR400 is actually a low carbon steel and does not really harden properly for a knife. You WOULD have to heat treat it, unless you got a piece already heat treated, in which case you'd have one hell of a time working it. AR400 is a specialty steel, meant to be incredibly tough and incredibly abrasion resistant, but actual hardness wasn't a top priority. It doesn't have to survive and hold it's shape in micro fine shapes like a knife edge. Trying to grind it already hardened would be extremely expensive in terms of supplies, you could go through a lot of grinding belts really fast.
Steel is always a trade off, a knife made from AR400 would be essentially a sharpened high end crow bar. Almost indestructible, but the edge would be gone the instant you cut anything tougher than air. You could probably hammer it through concrete without significant damage but it would be done as a knife shaped spike, not a cutting edge.
If you want super tough but also good edge retention and hardness look at CPM3V and CPMD2. Both are technically non stainless but not rust magnets generally. Both are very durable steels that can take a good edge and hold it. CPMS35V is another good choice that is now available and gives you stainless as well. You'll be sending any of these out for heat treating so you don't need to worry about the details of that when it comes to steel choice.
I'd grind a few from less expensive steels unless you don't mind an expensive learning curve. Your first few tend to be where you learn what does and doesn't work for a design and get a feel for the process. 1080 or 1084 are good choices since you can fairly easily home heat treat those, or find a local blacksmith or something to do it for you. Depending on where you are in PA it wouldn't be too hard to find someone.
Last, but most valuable, go here and read the stickies related to new makers. The information is literally priceless. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/741-Shop-Talk-BladeSmith-Questions-and-Answers
5/19/2012 11:17:31 PM
I agree with all the above but would like to add M4 steel as another option It is incredible. You said fighting knife not sure what style you want but as someone who likes messing around buying a Mil spec Ontario machete is a cheap practice blank.
Just make sure not to heat up the blade to much or you will have to re heat it but you can make several knives out of each machete.
Here is a Martindale style machete that I am working on It looks rough now but I just started it today. It started life as a Ontario that I paid $20 for
Just make sure not to heat up the blade to much or you will have to re heat it but you can make several knives out of each machete.
Here is a Martindale style machete that I am working on It looks rough now but I just started it today. It started life as a Ontario that I paid $20 for
5/20/2012 7:53:50 PM
May I make a suggestion...use either 1095 or 5160 for your combat knife. Yes, it is possible for you to use AR400 for a knife but there will be issues with it before you even begin.
The first being it will be in an already hard state which you will need to anneal in order to make it more workable. The second is that although the carbon is low (.30 %max ) it should either be water or mineral oil quenched fro 1600 to 1650 degrees F. Then it must be tempered between 700 to 1000 F to obtain the desired hardness.
It has alloys that make up for the low carbon content and aid in harden ability. If you do not do this right you will over or under harden the knife it can shatter or not be hard enough to keep an edge. It has 5 times the nomal strength of 1095 and is very very shock capable.
The reasoning behind the 2 mentioned carbon steels are that they are very forgivable and cheap...they also work very well for what you want to do.
The first being it will be in an already hard state which you will need to anneal in order to make it more workable. The second is that although the carbon is low (.30 %max ) it should either be water or mineral oil quenched fro 1600 to 1650 degrees F. Then it must be tempered between 700 to 1000 F to obtain the desired hardness.
It has alloys that make up for the low carbon content and aid in harden ability. If you do not do this right you will over or under harden the knife it can shatter or not be hard enough to keep an edge. It has 5 times the nomal strength of 1095 and is very very shock capable.
The reasoning behind the 2 mentioned carbon steels are that they are very forgivable and cheap...they also work very well for what you want to do.
5/21/2012 9:47:01 PM
My steel suggestion for "easy" and "tough" is 1084. Doesn't have the current buzz word cachet of 1095 but for real world use it's easier to heat treat properly and makes great knives. It's actually tougher than 1095 but doesn't get quite as hard. From the perspective of "easy" it is much easier to heat treat, particularly if you don't have precise temperature control.
Here's a link to my source for 1084 (and other steels)
Here's a link to my source for 1084 (and other steels)
5/21/2012 9:58:50 PM
Originally Posted By Remyrw:
My steel suggestion for "easy" and "tough" is 1084. Doesn't have the current buzz word cachet of 1095 but for real world use it's easier to heat treat properly and makes great knives. It's actually tougher than 1095 but doesn't get quite as hard. From the perspective of "easy" it is much easier to heat treat, particularly if you don't have precise temperature control.
Here's a link to my source for 1084 (and other steels)
My steel suggestion for "easy" and "tough" is 1084. Doesn't have the current buzz word cachet of 1095 but for real world use it's easier to heat treat properly and makes great knives. It's actually tougher than 1095 but doesn't get quite as hard. From the perspective of "easy" it is much easier to heat treat, particularly if you don't have precise temperature control.
Here's a link to my source for 1084 (and other steels)
That's really cheap prices. Can I make the knife out of a single piece or does it need rolled and hammered?
5/22/2012 11:38:00 AM
Well, from the link, each piece should make a couple knives. It's a flat piece of bar stock. Not precision ground or anything, but ready to start turning into a knife. You don't need to do anything special to it beforehand.
1084 is inexpensive, 1095 is a bit more, then most of the stainless steels are significantly more. It's ALL fairly cheap on a per knife basis, unless you're doing something exotic the steel is not the most expensive part of a knife. Heck, in terms of costs per knife, my grinding belt costs run higher than the steel when I'm doing 1084.
Just look at the dimensions listed, pick what works for you. Shipping is about the same whether you get one bar or a few. Buy slightly over sized. The most annoying thing when trying to get a design onto steel is not having a big enough piece of steel. The edges tend to be slightly rounded over, so you loose about 1/16" of working space. If your pattern just fits on 1.5" tall steel, get the next size up or tweak the design to fit 1.4".
1084 is inexpensive, 1095 is a bit more, then most of the stainless steels are significantly more. It's ALL fairly cheap on a per knife basis, unless you're doing something exotic the steel is not the most expensive part of a knife. Heck, in terms of costs per knife, my grinding belt costs run higher than the steel when I'm doing 1084.
Just look at the dimensions listed, pick what works for you. Shipping is about the same whether you get one bar or a few. Buy slightly over sized. The most annoying thing when trying to get a design onto steel is not having a big enough piece of steel. The edges tend to be slightly rounded over, so you loose about 1/16" of working space. If your pattern just fits on 1.5" tall steel, get the next size up or tweak the design to fit 1.4".
5/22/2012 12:10:32 PM
Originally Posted By Remyrw:
Well, from the link, each piece should make a couple knives. It's a flat piece of bar stock. Not precision ground or anything, but ready to start turning into a knife. You don't need to do anything special to it beforehand.
1084 is inexpensive, 1095 is a bit more, then most of the stainless steels are significantly more. It's ALL fairly cheap on a per knife basis, unless you're doing something exotic the steel is not the most expensive part of a knife. Heck, in terms of costs per knife, my grinding belt costs run higher than the steel when I'm doing 1084.
Just look at the dimensions listed, pick what works for you. Shipping is about the same whether you get one bar or a few. Buy slightly over sized. The most annoying thing when trying to get a design onto steel is not having a big enough piece of steel. The edges tend to be slightly rounded over, so you loose about 1/16" of working space. If your pattern just fits on 1.5" tall steel, get the next size up or tweak the design to fit 1.4".
Well, from the link, each piece should make a couple knives. It's a flat piece of bar stock. Not precision ground or anything, but ready to start turning into a knife. You don't need to do anything special to it beforehand.
1084 is inexpensive, 1095 is a bit more, then most of the stainless steels are significantly more. It's ALL fairly cheap on a per knife basis, unless you're doing something exotic the steel is not the most expensive part of a knife. Heck, in terms of costs per knife, my grinding belt costs run higher than the steel when I'm doing 1084.
Just look at the dimensions listed, pick what works for you. Shipping is about the same whether you get one bar or a few. Buy slightly over sized. The most annoying thing when trying to get a design onto steel is not having a big enough piece of steel. The edges tend to be slightly rounded over, so you loose about 1/16" of working space. If your pattern just fits on 1.5" tall steel, get the next size up or tweak the design to fit 1.4".
Awesome. Have me a few knives to make.. Thanks for the link.
5/22/2012 5:35:05 PM
That is even better Rem....I forgot about that one...
5/23/2012 7:33:19 AM
*dramatic sigh* Poor 1084, forgotten in the dust of it's only slightly harder but far more glamorous sibling 1095. 
5/23/2012 9:40:53 AM
Originally Posted By mc556:
I agree with all the above but would like to add M4 steel as another option It is incredible. You said fighting knife not sure what style you want but as someone who likes messing around buying a Mil spec Ontario machete is a cheap practice blank.
Just make sure not to heat up the blade to much or you will have to re heat it but you can make several knives out of each machete.
Here is a Martindale style machete that I am working on It looks rough now but I just started it today. It started life as a Ontario that I paid $20 for
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/mc556/IMAG0440.jpg
I agree with all the above but would like to add M4 steel as another option It is incredible. You said fighting knife not sure what style you want but as someone who likes messing around buying a Mil spec Ontario machete is a cheap practice blank.
Just make sure not to heat up the blade to much or you will have to re heat it but you can make several knives out of each machete.
Here is a Martindale style machete that I am working on It looks rough now but I just started it today. It started life as a Ontario that I paid $20 for
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/mc556/IMAG0440.jpg
I love that blade. You made it out of a cheap machete?
