Archived Posts » 59,699,509
Load suggestions for military surplus projectiles
4/30/2012 12:14:18 AM
I have three different milsurp projectiles I'll be loading soon. I have small quantities due to the rarity, expense, or both, so I don't want to waste any doing load development. So, any suggestions would be helpful!
1.) M2 AP .30-06 (Main concern is reaching appropriate velocities for proper penetration performance, would be used in M1 Garand if I ever shot it)
2.) M25?? Tracer .30-06 (No color left on tips, so don't know if it was red or orange. Main concern is proper lighting - what's the point of shooting a tracer if it doesn't light)
3.) M196 Tracer 5.56 (Again, main concern is getting them to light properly, and if possible hit close to same POI as M193 - shooting out of a SP1 w/ 1:12)
I have IMR4895, H322, and Varget powders. Using military brass in both calibers, and CCI 34 or 41 primers.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
1.) M2 AP .30-06 (Main concern is reaching appropriate velocities for proper penetration performance, would be used in M1 Garand if I ever shot it)
2.) M25?? Tracer .30-06 (No color left on tips, so don't know if it was red or orange. Main concern is proper lighting - what's the point of shooting a tracer if it doesn't light)
3.) M196 Tracer 5.56 (Again, main concern is getting them to light properly, and if possible hit close to same POI as M193 - shooting out of a SP1 w/ 1:12)
I have IMR4895, H322, and Varget powders. Using military brass in both calibers, and CCI 34 or 41 primers.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
4/30/2012 8:24:06 PM
hmmm, i'm interested in the tracer info as well. i bought an 8lb keg of the 844 but didn't go for the 844T although that is said to work better for tracer bullets. waiting to see what the rest say.
4/30/2012 9:00:12 PM
M1 Garand HERE.
All Loads in TM 43-0001-27. Chapter 5 for 30-06 and Chapter 10 for 5.56MM. Look up each bullet type and the data will include powder and charge weight.
All Loads in TM 43-0001-27. Chapter 5 for 30-06 and Chapter 10 for 5.56MM. Look up each bullet type and the data will include powder and charge weight.
5/5/2012 11:07:29 AM
Wow, that was some interesting reading! Thank you! Fascinating to know that the M995 is only 52gr and is berdan primed!
Too bad I don't have most of the powders listed
I wish there was a chart that converted powders - i.e., going from 4895 to 322, multiply the charge weight of one by 1.2, or 0.7, to get equivalent performance/pressure.
Too bad I don't have most of the powders listed
I wish there was a chart that converted powders - i.e., going from 4895 to 322, multiply the charge weight of one by 1.2, or 0.7, to get equivalent performance/pressure.
5/5/2012 12:12:34 PM
Originally Posted By PHO3N1X:
Wow, that was some interesting reading! Thank you! Fascinating to know that the M995 is only 52gr and is berdan primed!
Too bad I don't have most of the powders listed
I wish there was a chart that converted powders - i.e., going from 4895 to 322, multiply the charge weight of one by 1.2, or 0.7, to get equivalent performance/pressure.
Wow, that was some interesting reading! Thank you! Fascinating to know that the M995 is only 52gr and is berdan primed!
Too bad I don't have most of the powders listed
I wish there was a chart that converted powders - i.e., going from 4895 to 322, multiply the charge weight of one by 1.2, or 0.7, to get equivalent performance/pressure.
That sounds like an exercise for QuickLoad. I think the conversion might be a bit more complicated than a single arithmetic multiplier. Even QuickLoad with its assumptions (start pressure, barrel friction, energy density, burn rate, etc.) is probably only good to +/- 10%.
6/5/2012 10:38:48 PM
ost
6/5/2012 11:43:37 PM
You really need to work up loads in your rifle for safety sake.
Cherry picking loads off the internet is not without considerable risk.
There is no formula to convert powder charges between different powders.
I suggest you get a copy of ABC's of Reloading and learn more about the reloading process.
Reloading is a safe hobby if you follow common sense rules that are in the reloading manuals.
It's your rifle, eyes, and fingers. Good luck
6/6/2012 1:10:51 AM
I would too suggest working up your powder charges but it's not necessary to load a lot of test loads for your M1 Garand loads. With the M2 163 grain, no need to go below 45 grains of IMR 4895. I'd suggest 46.5 to 47 grains of IMR 4895 for the black tipped M2 163 grain load. Overall length that works in my M1 Garands with the M2 bullet is 3.320-3.325".
With the M25 145 tracer bullets I load them up to 47.5 grains of IMR 4895 at an oal around 3.330". IF the tracer compound in the bullet hasn't deteriorated they will light reliably with IMR 4895.
No experience with your H322 or Varget powders with M196 54 grain tracers. I've only used WC 844 and H335 and they will light if the tracer compound is good. I'd think with your powders H322 would be best and Varget may be too slow. I'd drop your 55 fmj load 1/2 grain lower for the tracers with H322.
The above loads are not maximums but are appropriate for your M1 Garand. A very few rounds with lower charges and working up would be advisable and safest. The overall lengths of the military surplus bullets will vary because the tip shapes vary and probably they are from different lots. Maximum overall length is 3.340" and they will function in my Garands at that length but I seat them slightly deeper. Have fun, be safe. Don't shoot the AP bullets at steel targets at close ranges as bullet jacket material can richochet back at you. I've read to not shoot steel at less than 300 yards??
With the M25 145 tracer bullets I load them up to 47.5 grains of IMR 4895 at an oal around 3.330". IF the tracer compound in the bullet hasn't deteriorated they will light reliably with IMR 4895.
No experience with your H322 or Varget powders with M196 54 grain tracers. I've only used WC 844 and H335 and they will light if the tracer compound is good. I'd think with your powders H322 would be best and Varget may be too slow. I'd drop your 55 fmj load 1/2 grain lower for the tracers with H322.
The above loads are not maximums but are appropriate for your M1 Garand. A very few rounds with lower charges and working up would be advisable and safest. The overall lengths of the military surplus bullets will vary because the tip shapes vary and probably they are from different lots. Maximum overall length is 3.340" and they will function in my Garands at that length but I seat them slightly deeper. Have fun, be safe. Don't shoot the AP bullets at steel targets at close ranges as bullet jacket material can richochet back at you. I've read to not shoot steel at less than 300 yards??
6/6/2012 9:45:30 AM
thank you costeve!!!
i just bought 8 lbs of that wc844 too and was about to ask for the load data on that powder. now for 55gr is says 28.5 gr for wc844....is that a max load? it seems kinda high.im thinking i should start 10% below that.
i have a reloading manual andthe wc844 is not listed. does it go by another name?
i just bought 8 lbs of that wc844 too and was about to ask for the load data on that powder. now for 55gr is says 28.5 gr for wc844....is that a max load? it seems kinda high.im thinking i should start 10% below that.
i have a reloading manual andthe wc844 is not listed. does it go by another name?
6/6/2012 10:39:34 AM
WARNING-CAUTION ––––DO NOT use data from the Army Ammunition Data sheets for loading using surplus powders. In most cases either the powder listed isn't available OR the charges are much higher than would be safe in your loads. The charge with WC 844 is much too high for 54-55 grain bullets with any WC 844 powder that I've reloaded and I've used several different lots of WC 844 from different suppliers.
I've always thought that in the data sheets that they have the charges reversed for the two powders and that 26.5 instead of 28.5 would be the max charge for the 55 gr.M 193 FMJ and with the M 196 red tipped tracer that 25.3 should be the maximum for WC 844. I'd recommend to start at 24 grains of WC 844 with 55 grain bullets and work up from there in .223 Rem.
The Army Ammunition Data Sheets are useful for overall length maximums, military velocity, and other info BUT NOT to use their powder charges unless starting much lower and working up. With any lot of WC 844 I've loaded and chrono'd 26 grains would be maximum with 55 fmj bullets and the M193 54 grain tracer at 25.3 would be maximum. Start lower and work up as surplus powders do vary in burn rate from lot to lot. With various lots I've loaded I have got one lot that was faster than normal and one lot that was slower than normal for WC 844. Same thing with other surplus powders I've loaded with surplus 4895 and surplus 50 BMG powders. Here's another chart for surplus powders but only for comparison and do start lower and work up.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49670568/Cross-Reference-Military-Powder-Chart
I've always thought that in the data sheets that they have the charges reversed for the two powders and that 26.5 instead of 28.5 would be the max charge for the 55 gr.M 193 FMJ and with the M 196 red tipped tracer that 25.3 should be the maximum for WC 844. I'd recommend to start at 24 grains of WC 844 with 55 grain bullets and work up from there in .223 Rem.
The Army Ammunition Data Sheets are useful for overall length maximums, military velocity, and other info BUT NOT to use their powder charges unless starting much lower and working up. With any lot of WC 844 I've loaded and chrono'd 26 grains would be maximum with 55 fmj bullets and the M193 54 grain tracer at 25.3 would be maximum. Start lower and work up as surplus powders do vary in burn rate from lot to lot. With various lots I've loaded I have got one lot that was faster than normal and one lot that was slower than normal for WC 844. Same thing with other surplus powders I've loaded with surplus 4895 and surplus 50 BMG powders. Here's another chart for surplus powders but only for comparison and do start lower and work up.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49670568/Cross-Reference-Military-Powder-Chart
6/6/2012 1:21:55 PM
Originally Posted By rg1:
WARNING-CAUTION ––––DO NOT use data from the Army Ammunition Data sheets for loading using surplus powders. In most cases either the powder listed isn't available OR the charges are much higher than would be safe in your loads. The charge with WC 844 is much too high for 54-55 grain bullets with any WC 844 powder that I've reloaded and I've used several different lots of WC 844 from different suppliers.
I've always thought that in the data sheets that they have the charges reversed for the two powders and that 26.5 instead of 28.5 would be the max charge for the 55 gr.M 193 FMJ and with the M 196 red tipped tracer that 25.3 should be the maximum for WC 844. I'd recommend to start at 24 grains of WC 844 with 55 grain bullets and work up from there in .223 Rem.
The Army Ammunition Data Sheets are useful for overall length maximums, military velocity, and other info BUT NOT to use their powder charges unless starting much lower and working up. With any lot of WC 844 I've loaded and chrono'd 26 grains would be maximum with 55 fmj bullets and the M193 54 grain tracer at 25.3 would be maximum. Start lower and work up as surplus powders do vary in burn rate from lot to lot. With various lots I've loaded I have got one lot that was faster than normal and one lot that was slower than normal for WC 844. Same thing with other surplus powders I've loaded with surplus 4895 and surplus 50 BMG powders. Here's another chart for surplus powders but only for comparison and do start lower and work up.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49670568/Cross-Reference-Military-Powder-Chart
WARNING-CAUTION ––––DO NOT use data from the Army Ammunition Data sheets for loading using surplus powders. In most cases either the powder listed isn't available OR the charges are much higher than would be safe in your loads. The charge with WC 844 is much too high for 54-55 grain bullets with any WC 844 powder that I've reloaded and I've used several different lots of WC 844 from different suppliers.
I've always thought that in the data sheets that they have the charges reversed for the two powders and that 26.5 instead of 28.5 would be the max charge for the 55 gr.M 193 FMJ and with the M 196 red tipped tracer that 25.3 should be the maximum for WC 844. I'd recommend to start at 24 grains of WC 844 with 55 grain bullets and work up from there in .223 Rem.
The Army Ammunition Data Sheets are useful for overall length maximums, military velocity, and other info BUT NOT to use their powder charges unless starting much lower and working up. With any lot of WC 844 I've loaded and chrono'd 26 grains would be maximum with 55 fmj bullets and the M193 54 grain tracer at 25.3 would be maximum. Start lower and work up as surplus powders do vary in burn rate from lot to lot. With various lots I've loaded I have got one lot that was faster than normal and one lot that was slower than normal for WC 844. Same thing with other surplus powders I've loaded with surplus 4895 and surplus 50 BMG powders. Here's another chart for surplus powders but only for comparison and do start lower and work up.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49670568/Cross-Reference-Military-Powder-Chart
+1
The Army buys powder in huge lots. Each lot is tested to determine burn rate. The calculated load to achieve required velocity is test loaded and fired in test barrels to determine actual pressure. All of this requires very specialized equipment not available to average handloaders. Commercial powder is called Cannister grade - and that means the burn rate is held to a much tighter tolerance. But you still have to work up loads. Please do not use Army ammunition data sheets for determining powder charges.
