Archived Posts » 59,789,155
need help with 223 55 grain reloads
5/8/2012 3:21:18 PM
I have finally got my cases prepped and got my ideas on what powder and primers i want to use
i have settled on 55 grain bullets made by hornady, they come recommended by everybody as the most accurate for the price
h335 powder
cci primers
win nt cases
here is the question, i want to replicate nato loads for xm193
the hornady book does not have the fps stated that matches the same as xm193, it says it is over the max load not listed?
any help on the correct grains for h335
i also have varget and imr 4895 at my disposal
i have not ordered any powder yet but would like to in the near future, so i am not set on h335. i will order 8lbs when i do so i am trying to keep the mistakes to a minimum before i order powder.
this will be for barrel lengths in 20", 16" 12.5"
any help would be appreciated.
i have read the link above on loads for 223 and i jsut wanted to confirm some stuff before i start reloading 223
i have 4000 cases ready. so this will be for a large amount.
i have settled on 55 grain bullets made by hornady, they come recommended by everybody as the most accurate for the price
h335 powder
cci primers
win nt cases
here is the question, i want to replicate nato loads for xm193
the hornady book does not have the fps stated that matches the same as xm193, it says it is over the max load not listed?
any help on the correct grains for h335
i also have varget and imr 4895 at my disposal
i have not ordered any powder yet but would like to in the near future, so i am not set on h335. i will order 8lbs when i do so i am trying to keep the mistakes to a minimum before i order powder.
this will be for barrel lengths in 20", 16" 12.5"
any help would be appreciated.
i have read the link above on loads for 223 and i jsut wanted to confirm some stuff before i start reloading 223
i have 4000 cases ready. so this will be for a large amount.
5/8/2012 3:48:40 PM
Do you have access to a chronograph? Best way in my opinion is to chrono some XM193 in your firearm, then tweak your powder charge to match that velocity.
5/8/2012 4:20:39 PM
no chrono available. it sucks but i just don't have one
i don't have access to a range till july when i need all 4k rounds
i am just trying to replicate the nato 55 grain load, thats it.
i have the army manual with the ammunition specs, but i just wanted to confirm it on here before i went any further.
i don't have access to a range till july when i need all 4k rounds
i am just trying to replicate the nato 55 grain load, thats it.
i have the army manual with the ammunition specs, but i just wanted to confirm it on here before i went any further.
5/8/2012 4:24:04 PM
IMHO you should not worry about trying to replicate xm193 nato loads.
Work up a load that shoots the best in your rifle(s).
ETA: no range access?... would just go with middle of the powder manufacturers recommendations (hodgdons site says 23-25.3 grns with h335).
would suck to have 4k rounds loaded too hot.
Work up a load that shoots the best in your rifle(s).
ETA: no range access?... would just go with middle of the powder manufacturers recommendations (hodgdons site says 23-25.3 grns with h335).
would suck to have 4k rounds loaded too hot.
5/8/2012 4:46:07 PM
Originally Posted By Obo2:
IMHO you should not worry about trying to replicate xm193 nato loads.
Work up a load that shoots the best in your rifle(s).
ETA: no range access?... would just go with middle of the powder manufacturers recommendations (hodgdons site says 23-25.3 grns with h335).
would suck to have 4k rounds loaded too hot.
IMHO you should not worry about trying to replicate xm193 nato loads.
Work up a load that shoots the best in your rifle(s).
ETA: no range access?... would just go with middle of the powder manufacturers recommendations (hodgdons site says 23-25.3 grns with h335).
would suck to have 4k rounds loaded too hot.
+1
I have shot a lot of xm193 out of my 16" 1:7 Entry Tactical. It is not the best round that I have used in terms of accuracy. It works ok for a plinking round.
I would find the best load combo for each rifle, and then load batches for each gun. You will find that the bullet will perform best at a certain velocity, and that each barrel length will produce a different velocity for the same load. The 20" will have higher velocity than the 16", which will be higher than the 12.5".
Even without a chrono to get specific data, you can shoot batches out of each rifle and compare the groups to see what powder charge provides the best group for each rifle.
5/8/2012 6:30:58 PM
Originally Posted By handym3000:
no chrono available. it sucks but i just don't have one
i don't have access to a range till july when i need all 4k rounds
i am just trying to replicate the nato 55 grain load, thats it.
i have the army manual with the ammunition specs, but i just wanted to confirm it on here before i went any further.
no chrono available. it sucks but i just don't have one
i don't have access to a range till july when i need all 4k rounds
i am just trying to replicate the nato 55 grain load, thats it.
i have the army manual with the ammunition specs, but i just wanted to confirm it on here before i went any further.
This is a monumentally bad plan.
Never show up at a contest or a class without perfecting your equipment beforehand if you plan to win, or even complete the competition or class.
If you need 4000 rounds of XM193, your best option right now is to buy factory ammunition. Picking a maximum load out of thin air, then hoping it works out okay, is not the smartest move. If you believe that is possible, you're flatly wrong. You want to keep mistakes to a minimum, but you're walking into a mistake; I don't know if your eyes are open or not.
You'll need 15 pounds of gunpowder to load 4000 cartridges.
5/8/2012 7:30:33 PM
I have never had a problem with H335 and 25.3 grains with Hornady 55 gr fmjbt's. In fact, I have Speer bullet data that lists the max at 26.0 grains.
I did just buy a pound of CFE-223 on Saturday. It is supposed to meter well like H335, but the data from Hodgudon shows a significant velocity improvement. I assume it is due to a slower burn rate like varget.
I did just buy a pound of CFE-223 on Saturday. It is supposed to meter well like H335, but the data from Hodgudon shows a significant velocity improvement. I assume it is due to a slower burn rate like varget.
5/8/2012 10:22:55 PM
You need to work up a load and test before loading 4k.
Or you might post a "my 4k rounds won't chamber, what do I do?" thread.
Would you run a car in a race without a few "practice laps"?
5/8/2012 11:19:35 PM
You will never be able to duplicate the 193 load because you can't crimp your primers.
I buy factory ammo for my Zombie SHTF stash but I reload for range shooting.
25 grs of H335 will give you a good dependable range load. Expect around 3000 fps from a 20 inch barrel. A lot of people use this as their range load and there is nothing wrong with it. A BDC on a TA-01 ACOG will work with this load out to 500 meters. I can get one inch groups with this load.
25.3 grs is my favorite load. I get most of the accuracy and maybe around 3100 fps out of a 20 inch barrel. I get one to two inch groups from this load.
I have got 3150-3200 fps from 25.5 grs but accuracy starts to suffer. I get 2-3 inch groups.
Some people have put in 26 grs but that is at the upper end. I suspect accuracy would be a problem then. That would be the closest to the 193 load. I would not recommend it.
The best thing is to develop you own loads for your own rifles. There is no short cut.
I buy factory ammo for my Zombie SHTF stash but I reload for range shooting.
25 grs of H335 will give you a good dependable range load. Expect around 3000 fps from a 20 inch barrel. A lot of people use this as their range load and there is nothing wrong with it. A BDC on a TA-01 ACOG will work with this load out to 500 meters. I can get one inch groups with this load.
25.3 grs is my favorite load. I get most of the accuracy and maybe around 3100 fps out of a 20 inch barrel. I get one to two inch groups from this load.
I have got 3150-3200 fps from 25.5 grs but accuracy starts to suffer. I get 2-3 inch groups.
Some people have put in 26 grs but that is at the upper end. I suspect accuracy would be a problem then. That would be the closest to the 193 load. I would not recommend it.
The best thing is to develop you own loads for your own rifles. There is no short cut.
5/8/2012 11:19:45 PM
I have seen many posters here recommend 25gr. of H335 with 55gr. FMJ pills.
Its the load I use, too.
(Husky is .3gr. over
Its the load I use, too.
(Husky is .3gr. over
5/9/2012 1:32:07 AM
Wait a minute here....If I buy the same bullet some ammo manufacturer uses, and match the speed theirs shoots, it won't shoot exactly the same ?
5/9/2012 1:50:50 AM
Originally Posted By glorifiedG:
Wait a minute here....If I buy the same bullet some ammo manufacturer uses, and match the speed theirs shoots, it won't shoot exactly the same ?
Wait a minute here....If I buy the same bullet some ammo manufacturer uses, and match the speed theirs shoots, it won't shoot exactly the same ?
Externally, yes. But that's not the plan in this thread. The bullet and the gunpowder aren't the same, for starters.
Bullets of the same weight from different manufacturers won't produce the same chamber pressure with identical power charges unless they have identical jackets, ogive shape, bearing surface length, core alloy, and so on. A blunt ogive, thick jacket, and long bearing surface raise pressure.
5/9/2012 8:06:14 AM
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Externally, yes. But that's not the plan in this thread. The bullet and the gunpowder aren't the same, for starters.
Bullets of the same weight from different manufacturers won't produce the same chamber pressure with identical power charges unless they have identical jackets, ogive shape, bearing surface length, core alloy, and so on. A blunt ogive, thick jacket, and long bearing surface raise pressure.
Originally Posted By glorifiedG:
Wait a minute here....If I buy the same bullet some ammo manufacturer uses, and match the speed theirs shoots, it won't shoot exactly the same ?
Wait a minute here....If I buy the same bullet some ammo manufacturer uses, and match the speed theirs shoots, it won't shoot exactly the same ?
Externally, yes. But that's not the plan in this thread. The bullet and the gunpowder aren't the same, for starters.
Bullets of the same weight from different manufacturers won't produce the same chamber pressure with identical power charges unless they have identical jackets, ogive shape, bearing surface length, core alloy, and so on. A blunt ogive, thick jacket, and long bearing surface raise pressure.
Not only that but wouldn't it really suck to load up 4000 rounds and realize you're shoulder isn't bumped back quite far enough? Or your expanding die pulled your shoulder a little bit? That half a grain difference in your powder charge would make it shoot nickle sized groups as opposed to 50 cent piece size groups? How about one of those other things that makes you scratch your head when you're testing your loads that just needs a little tweeking?
Loading up new loads with out testing is a bad practice in my belief. Too much can go wrong.
5/9/2012 11:49:05 AM
okay ill see if i can do a small batch and then run the major load
25 grains of h335 i will work with a base point
24 grains
24.5 grains
i will try all 3 and see what works best.
thanks
25 grains of h335 i will work with a base point
24 grains
24.5 grains
i will try all 3 and see what works best.
thanks
5/9/2012 12:20:56 PM
Originally Posted By Henny:
Not only that but wouldn't it really suck to load up 4000 rounds and realize you're shoulder isn't bumped back quite far enough? Or your expanding die pulled your shoulder a little bit?
Isn't that what a case gauge is for?Not only that but wouldn't it really suck to load up 4000 rounds and realize you're shoulder isn't bumped back quite far enough? Or your expanding die pulled your shoulder a little bit?
5/9/2012 1:09:14 PM
Originally Posted By Matt_B:
Originally Posted By Henny:
Not only that but wouldn't it really suck to load up 4000 rounds and realize you're shoulder isn't bumped back quite far enough? Or your expanding die pulled your shoulder a little bit?
Isn't what a case gauge is for?Not only that but wouldn't it really suck to load up 4000 rounds and realize you're shoulder isn't bumped back quite far enough? Or your expanding die pulled your shoulder a little bit?
Sure is. Some people don't use them. (I do!!)
5/9/2012 1:18:32 PM
Originally Posted By handym3000:
okay ill see if i can do a small batch and then run the major load
25 grains of h335 i will work with a base point
24 grains
24.5 grains
i will try all 3 and see what works best.
thanks
okay ill see if i can do a small batch and then run the major load
25 grains of h335 i will work with a base point
24 grains
24.5 grains
i will try all 3 and see what works best.
thanks
It's called working up a load for a reason. Start with lower powder charges and work your way up while watching for pressure signs and evaluating accuracy. Each rifle is individual and will like slightly different loads
Do not get caught up in trying to duplicate NATO loads. At best, they are mediocre in my book.
I've achieved better accuracy out of my rifles by working up my own loads.
Take it slow and do not shortcut the process!!! You'll be much happier with the results in the end.
GTO688
5/9/2012 6:29:12 PM
Originally Posted By AeroE:
This is a monumentally bad plan.
Never show up at a contest or a class without perfecting your equipment beforehand if you plan to win, or even complete the competition or class.
If you need 4000 rounds of XM193, your best option right now is to buy factory ammunition. Picking a maximum load out of thin air, then hoping it works out okay, is not the smartest move. If you believe that is possible, you're flatly wrong. You want to keep mistakes to a minimum, but you're walking into a mistake; I don't know if your eyes are open or not.
You'll need 15 pounds of gunpowder to load 4000 cartridges.
Originally Posted By handym3000:
no chrono available. it sucks but i just don't have one
i don't have access to a range till july when i need all 4k rounds
i am just trying to replicate the nato 55 grain load, thats it.
i have the army manual with the ammunition specs, but i just wanted to confirm it on here before i went any further.
no chrono available. it sucks but i just don't have one
i don't have access to a range till july when i need all 4k rounds
i am just trying to replicate the nato 55 grain load, thats it.
i have the army manual with the ammunition specs, but i just wanted to confirm it on here before i went any further.
This is a monumentally bad plan.
Never show up at a contest or a class without perfecting your equipment beforehand if you plan to win, or even complete the competition or class.
If you need 4000 rounds of XM193, your best option right now is to buy factory ammunition. Picking a maximum load out of thin air, then hoping it works out okay, is not the smartest move. If you believe that is possible, you're flatly wrong. You want to keep mistakes to a minimum, but you're walking into a mistake; I don't know if your eyes are open or not.
You'll need 15 pounds of gunpowder to load 4000 cartridges.
Print out Aero's reply and make that you corner stone.
Q:Can you find a good load?
A: yes.
Q: Will it be easy to find one that works in all three different barrel lengths.
A: Not in the least
For one no M193 is a NATO load and Federal XM193 is not an M193 load. Federal states a 5.56 round can not be fired in a 223 chambered gun but a 223 round can be fire in both a 5.56 and a 223. It also states the Federal XM193 can be fired in either a 5.56 or 223 gun so if a 5.56 round can not be fired in a 223 and a real M193 is a 5.56 round then the XM193 is technically by definition not an M193 but a slightly reduced M193 load that, as they state is military in appearance.
That simply means buy 4000 factory rounds or start developing load data and consider the fact to get the most out of each gun develop a different load for each (Kind of a big reason we all reload in the first place, tuning a load to match each gun)
There are many consideration the least is not using the wrong ammo in a gun not intended for it.
To reduce that possibility I use different brass cases assigned to a particular gun.
That makes it easy to use different powders that work the best for each gun and know by head stamp which powder is in that case I assigned.
I have to think the 12.5 and 20 inch will shoot their best with very different loads, just an opinion based on experience.
You can get any powder to work but getting them to work best is another story and you are really trying to take on a big task to perfect 3 different loads (which will be easier than one load that will work well in all three guns) and be ready by July.
Can be done but will be a full time project.
Run some initial latter test which will be start loads gradually adding .2gr per five round groups so you can find elevation compatible with factory then tweak those for accuracy and do each gun separately
Remember, they idea is not so much to duplicate a common load as to find the load that gets each gun to be their best
You want to improve the accuracy and function of all three guns.
You did not mention the twist on your different barrels but if the 20" happens to be 1/9 I would recommend trying Sierra 52grHPBT match bullets. the Hornady are by far the best 55gr M193 bullet, you are correct but not even close to accurate compared to this 52s
IMO
Wulfmann
5/9/2012 9:22:56 PM
Originally Posted By handym3000:
no chrono available. it sucks but i just don't have one
i don't have access to a range till july when i need all 4k rounds
i am just trying to replicate the nato 55 grain load, thats it.
i have the army manual with the ammunition specs, but i just wanted to confirm it on here before i went any further.
no chrono available. it sucks but i just don't have one
i don't have access to a range till july when i need all 4k rounds
i am just trying to replicate the nato 55 grain load, thats it.
i have the army manual with the ammunition specs, but i just wanted to confirm it on here before i went any further.
Not trying to sound preachy, so please forgive if it comes off that way...
The Army manual lists powder required to meet the velocity spec. for one train load of powder only. Do not use the Army manual as a load book. We do not buy powder in million lb. lots like the Army. We also do not perform the same type of acceptance testing with each new lot.
5/10/2012 3:19:33 PM
i was just using the army manual as a guide/ info on what they use.
then ask you guys what you think.
it helps to ask when you have 3 different books in front of you and ask to double check with others before loading up and doing something.
i am going to stick to the 3 trial loads then pick the one that works best.
by the way all 3 barrels are 1/9 twist.
i am not looking for dime sized groups here, just a load that will work easily over all 3 lengths of barrels.
i have other guns i use for precision type stuff, this is mostly for range duty/ comp for 3 gun that's it.
then ask you guys what you think.
it helps to ask when you have 3 different books in front of you and ask to double check with others before loading up and doing something.
i am going to stick to the 3 trial loads then pick the one that works best.
by the way all 3 barrels are 1/9 twist.
i am not looking for dime sized groups here, just a load that will work easily over all 3 lengths of barrels.
i have other guns i use for precision type stuff, this is mostly for range duty/ comp for 3 gun that's it.
5/10/2012 3:30:29 PM
I'd use more than 3 trial loads. Make up five or six so you have a finer range of test points.
5/10/2012 4:37:25 PM
Originally Posted By handym3000:
i was just using the army manual as a guide/ info on what they use.
then ask you guys what you think.
it helps to ask when you have 3 different books in front of you and ask to double check with others before loading up and doing something.
i am going to stick to the 3 trial loads then pick the one that works best.
by the way all 3 barrels are 1/9 twist.
i am not looking for dime sized groups here, just a load that will work easily over all 3 lengths of barrels.
i have other guns i use for precision type stuff, this is mostly for range duty/ comp for 3 gun that's it.
i was just using the army manual as a guide/ info on what they use.
then ask you guys what you think.
it helps to ask when you have 3 different books in front of you and ask to double check with others before loading up and doing something.
i am going to stick to the 3 trial loads then pick the one that works best.
by the way all 3 barrels are 1/9 twist.
i am not looking for dime sized groups here, just a load that will work easily over all 3 lengths of barrels.
i have other guns i use for precision type stuff, this is mostly for range duty/ comp for 3 gun that's it.
What's your plan when you pick a load that blows primers or gives sticky extraction in July?
You're not getting the whole idea about getting prepared before showing up to a match. I've seen it before, and will see it again, and this doesn't afflict just shooters, it happens all the time at contests. A guy builds something, doesn't test it thoroughly or even at all, and the whole mess collapses right at the start putting the competitor out at the start. This is good, however, as it clears the field of the noobs.
5/12/2012 11:29:23 AM
Check out this article for a load development method. http://http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ I can usually find the best powder charge for a set of components in 15 - 18 shots. Use On Target software to plot your group centers as that is the key to the system. http://http://ontargetshooting.com/
5/12/2012 7:03:15 PM
If by chance you work up a load and consider Aero's advice to not be one who falls apart and is really prepared please consider another pitfall
temperatures
If you develop a load with 70 degree temps and shoot in 95 degree temps expect a change not only in initial POA but in varying POA (barrel heating) as the temperature curve will change.
Solution is easy enough but worth mentioning. Re-zero everything right before the match and check everything in the practice session do not assume it will not change again
Wulfmann
temperatures
If you develop a load with 70 degree temps and shoot in 95 degree temps expect a change not only in initial POA but in varying POA (barrel heating) as the temperature curve will change.
Solution is easy enough but worth mentioning. Re-zero everything right before the match and check everything in the practice session do not assume it will not change again
Wulfmann
5/12/2012 7:05:32 PM
Originally Posted By handym3000:
I have finally got my cases prepped and got my ideas on what powder and primers i want to use
i have settled on 55 grain bullets made by hornady, they come recommended by everybody as the most accurate for the price
h335 powder
cci primers
win nt cases
here is the question, i want to replicate nato loads for xm193
the hornady book does not have the fps stated that matches the same as xm193, it says it is over the max load not listed?
any help on the correct grains for h335
i also have varget and imr 4895 at my disposal
i have not ordered any powder yet but would like to in the near future, so i am not set on h335. i will order 8lbs when i do so i am trying to keep the mistakes to a minimum before i order powder.
this will be for barrel lengths in 20", 16" 12.5"
any help would be appreciated.
i have read the link above on loads for 223 and i jsut wanted to confirm some stuff before i start reloading 223
i have 4000 cases ready. so this will be for a large amount.
I have finally got my cases prepped and got my ideas on what powder and primers i want to use
i have settled on 55 grain bullets made by hornady, they come recommended by everybody as the most accurate for the price
h335 powder
cci primers
win nt cases
here is the question, i want to replicate nato loads for xm193
the hornady book does not have the fps stated that matches the same as xm193, it says it is over the max load not listed?
any help on the correct grains for h335
i also have varget and imr 4895 at my disposal
i have not ordered any powder yet but would like to in the near future, so i am not set on h335. i will order 8lbs when i do so i am trying to keep the mistakes to a minimum before i order powder.
this will be for barrel lengths in 20", 16" 12.5"
any help would be appreciated.
i have read the link above on loads for 223 and i jsut wanted to confirm some stuff before i start reloading 223
i have 4000 cases ready. so this will be for a large amount.
I think Ramshot has "over the max loads" listed in a separate section.
5/15/2012 1:16:20 PM
25 of H335 over a 55 is my standard load and shoots well in a variety of AR's (RRA, Stags, Bushy, Noveskes)
I actually prefer Hornady 55 SP's over the FMJ's as they shoot much better than the FMJ's in all of the guns listed above.
Actually the SP's shoot better than just about everything else I've loaded except for A/V Max, SMK's and Bergers.
Spent the better part of the last 2 weekends trying to isolate what loads were shooting "best" in my precision rig.
I need to find a longer range as the data I get from "tweaked" loads at 200 isnt very telling. It's getting hard to figure out
which load/group/combo is best. It's frustrating (in a good way I guess) as the rig is shooting some really great groups).
The real problem now is that I have 20 or so batches of rounds that have different components, weights, COAL's etc.
Need to spend a day just plinking and blasting to get rid of all the various lots.
I actually prefer Hornady 55 SP's over the FMJ's as they shoot much better than the FMJ's in all of the guns listed above.
Actually the SP's shoot better than just about everything else I've loaded except for A/V Max, SMK's and Bergers.
Spent the better part of the last 2 weekends trying to isolate what loads were shooting "best" in my precision rig.
I need to find a longer range as the data I get from "tweaked" loads at 200 isnt very telling. It's getting hard to figure out
which load/group/combo is best. It's frustrating (in a good way I guess) as the rig is shooting some really great groups).
The real problem now is that I have 20 or so batches of rounds that have different components, weights, COAL's etc.
Need to spend a day just plinking and blasting to get rid of all the various lots.
5/15/2012 2:19:20 PM
Originally Posted By Zoomer302:
25 of H335 over a 55 is my standard load and shoots well in a variety of AR's (RRA, Stags, Bushy, Noveskes)
I actually prefer Hornady 55 SP's over the FMJ's as they shoot much better than the FMJ's in all of the guns listed above.
Actually the SP's shoot better than just about everything else I've loaded except for A/V Max, SMK's and Bergers.
Spent the better part of the last 2 weekends trying to isolate what loads were shooting "best" in my precision rig.
I need to find a longer range as the data I get from "tweaked" loads at 200 isnt very telling. It's getting hard to figure out
which load/group/combo is best. It's frustrating (in a good way I guess) as the rig is shooting some really great groups).
The real problem now is that I have 20 or so batches of rounds that have different components, weights, COAL's etc.
Need to spend a day just plinking and blasting to get rid of all the various lots.
25 of H335 over a 55 is my standard load and shoots well in a variety of AR's (RRA, Stags, Bushy, Noveskes)
I actually prefer Hornady 55 SP's over the FMJ's as they shoot much better than the FMJ's in all of the guns listed above.
Actually the SP's shoot better than just about everything else I've loaded except for A/V Max, SMK's and Bergers.
Spent the better part of the last 2 weekends trying to isolate what loads were shooting "best" in my precision rig.
I need to find a longer range as the data I get from "tweaked" loads at 200 isnt very telling. It's getting hard to figure out
which load/group/combo is best. It's frustrating (in a good way I guess) as the rig is shooting some really great groups).
The real problem now is that I have 20 or so batches of rounds that have different components, weights, COAL's etc.
Need to spend a day just plinking and blasting to get rid of all the various lots.
Suggestion; instead of shooting the left over stuff into groups, now set up individual bullseyes and shoot for score, one bullet into each bull. This will force you to get the scope zeroed exactly, and you'll have to pay even closer attention to the slightest breeze to keep the bullets in the X.
5/15/2012 3:00:23 PM
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
Heh, I have done this, literally. Would you run a car in a race without a few "practice laps"?
That said, I have tried developing a load for my 16" and 24" barrel guns and (IMO) its a frustrating waste of time. I could have had pet loads for each gun in 1/4 of the time I spent fooling around with the same load for each.
