Archived Posts » 59,646,491
How do you make accurate handloads??
5/20/2012 1:48:53 AM
I recently got into reloading and assumed from all the hype that as long as I prepped my cases all the same, used good bullets, and made sure each powder charge was the same, I would have very accurate loads.
This has not been the case, accuracy is terrible. What am I missing here?
Here are some photos of groups with the loads I've made, I've done a couple groups of each, but only put up 1 pic of each. All my brass is trimmed to 1.750"
The Shoot-N-C's are 3"
Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Like I said, I took great care to make sure each powder charge was the same to 0.1 grain and I still got bad accuracy and a large SD on velocity.
This has not been the case, accuracy is terrible. What am I missing here?
Here are some photos of groups with the loads I've made, I've done a couple groups of each, but only put up 1 pic of each. All my brass is trimmed to 1.750"
The Shoot-N-C's are 3"
Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Like I said, I took great care to make sure each powder charge was the same to 0.1 grain and I still got bad accuracy and a large SD on velocity.
5/20/2012 2:14:24 AM
What rifle? The 77 SMK load, 23.0 worked for me, never got to 24.0
5/20/2012 2:28:29 AM
Rifle is a 16" DI LMT MRP. I was using a 10x scope at 100m for all groups except the southwest ammo, it was a 6x.
5/20/2012 2:36:51 AM
You have to tune your loads to your rifle.
With your 55gr Zmax, is 24.5gr of TAC the only 55Zmax load you tried or did you try other charges like 24gr or 25gr? If no, then you need to do some more load development. If yes then maybe your rifle does not like TAC.
There are a few different methods for developing a load including one method called the ladder test and another method called OCW. You can google for both methods and read all about it. Then there is the tried and trued method of loading a bunch of different loads and seeing what shoots the best.
For example, when I try a new bullet in my AR I'll check a couple of different sources for reload data (in my case, a hornady reloading manual, Hodgens website, and one other source), pick a mid range charge, and then load up 15 rounds, then add .5gr and load 15 more and so on.
I had some ultramax ammo with nosler 55gr ballistic tips that shot really good. So I got myself some 55gr nolser ballistic tips, grabbed my favorite powder (Varget) and loaded 45 rounds, 15 at 24grs, 15 at 24.5grs and 15 at 25grs. I would then shoot 5 of each group round robin style and compare the results. In this example, 24.5 turned out to be a great load that consistently yielded sub 1 inch groups. The 24 gr load shot decent with roughly 1.5 inch groups and the 25gr load was total crap.. over 2 inches.. I didn't event bother to take a measurement. Had none of these 3 charges worked out well I would have tried a few other charges. I had an advantage in knowing the 55gr ballistic tips would shoot well in my rifle. Sometimes a bullet you pick simply does not work in your barrel.
There is also a very good 17 part series on youtube that would probably help a lot (assuming you're willing to watch the whole thing) The reloading bit starts around part 5 or 6 I think:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCD31A83F7643E23C&feature=plcp
With your 55gr Zmax, is 24.5gr of TAC the only 55Zmax load you tried or did you try other charges like 24gr or 25gr? If no, then you need to do some more load development. If yes then maybe your rifle does not like TAC.
There are a few different methods for developing a load including one method called the ladder test and another method called OCW. You can google for both methods and read all about it. Then there is the tried and trued method of loading a bunch of different loads and seeing what shoots the best.
For example, when I try a new bullet in my AR I'll check a couple of different sources for reload data (in my case, a hornady reloading manual, Hodgens website, and one other source), pick a mid range charge, and then load up 15 rounds, then add .5gr and load 15 more and so on.
I had some ultramax ammo with nosler 55gr ballistic tips that shot really good. So I got myself some 55gr nolser ballistic tips, grabbed my favorite powder (Varget) and loaded 45 rounds, 15 at 24grs, 15 at 24.5grs and 15 at 25grs. I would then shoot 5 of each group round robin style and compare the results. In this example, 24.5 turned out to be a great load that consistently yielded sub 1 inch groups. The 24 gr load shot decent with roughly 1.5 inch groups and the 25gr load was total crap.. over 2 inches.. I didn't event bother to take a measurement. Had none of these 3 charges worked out well I would have tried a few other charges. I had an advantage in knowing the 55gr ballistic tips would shoot well in my rifle. Sometimes a bullet you pick simply does not work in your barrel.
There is also a very good 17 part series on youtube that would probably help a lot (assuming you're willing to watch the whole thing) The reloading bit starts around part 5 or 6 I think:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCD31A83F7643E23C&feature=plcp
5/20/2012 3:05:06 AM
Originally Posted By BlackLabelM4:
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Tip #1 Use Reloader-15
Tip #2 Load 10 each at .4 grain increments and see which shoot the best. It's generally not the fastest or slowest but often a half grain or so below max.
5/20/2012 4:58:22 AM
try more or less jump to the lands and see if that helps at all
How are you measuring your loads? top the tip or the ogive?
How are you measuring your loads? top the tip or the ogive?
5/20/2012 5:50:25 AM
The key to accurate handloads, is firing them from an accurate rifle.
GG
GG
5/20/2012 8:30:11 AM
are you sorting your brass?
5/20/2012 9:12:55 AM
What am I missing? What is wrong with the last group pictured? Fairly tight if you ask me.
5/20/2012 9:34:09 AM
There are lots of misconceptions about the magic of reloading. Making superior ammunition is easy, but there's more to the accuracy solution than just the ammunition.
A good bullet in a good barrel is mandatory. A good barrel is one with a chamber that is circular and concentric to the bore, a throat that is circular and concentric, a bore that is circular and is constant diameter, and especially does not flare at the muzzle, has lands and grooves that are symmetric and have uniform dimensions the length of the barrel, has no egregious machine tool marks, and has a crown that is square to the bore and burr free.
An AR without an floated barrrel will never meet it's potential even with a good load and barrel. A gritty factory trigger has to be corrected, too.
After that's sorted out, then the shooter and his technique come next, as the rifle is probably good enough to discriminate the differences in loads and the shooter's ability and methods. A bad scope can ruin everything, and sometimes there's nothing left to try. They go bad, and the really cheap ones start bad.
Don't be afraid to let someone else watch you shoot and shoot your rifle if they are experienced.
Load tuning contains a big trap, and if you think you've found a load that won't shoot well with charge weights 0.1 or 0.2 grains either side of the "tuned" charge, then it is not a tuned charge and I will guarantee that accuracy will degrade when the weather changes. A robust load will tune across a 0.5 grain range of charge weights, or thereabouts.
Don't screw around with jump to the lands with magazine length cartridges. Most likely you won't be able to get in the same galaxy as the origin of the rifling with a 69 to 77 grain bullet (maybe not even with the 75 grain AMAX) in a stock rifle, and if you could, the cartridges will be too long to fit in the magazine. Load to 2.25 or 2.26 inches COAL depending on your own assessment of the risk of feed problems in the magazine, and then press on.
There's lots of information about shooting and accuracy on the internet. A fair bit of it is fantasy, and some is really good. But the only thing that matters is discerning what is required and what works for the firearm in your hands. Methods that produce marginal improvements in really good custom bolt action rifles can't be incorporated into AR's at all or if they can, mean compromise on reliability. The point is that we have to analyze and experiment with what we actually have, that's the only way to know. Knowing is everything, guessing is nothing.
The three shot groups at the top of the thread don't really tell us much. I see signs of wind in one, and vertical in another. More shots are required to understand the actual size and shape of the group. The last one is a compact, round group, and that is what we are looking for.
I recommend a couple of loads using Reloder 15 to get a good assement of the potential of your rifle. The 52 grain MK load I use is especially good.
A good bullet in a good barrel is mandatory. A good barrel is one with a chamber that is circular and concentric to the bore, a throat that is circular and concentric, a bore that is circular and is constant diameter, and especially does not flare at the muzzle, has lands and grooves that are symmetric and have uniform dimensions the length of the barrel, has no egregious machine tool marks, and has a crown that is square to the bore and burr free.
An AR without an floated barrrel will never meet it's potential even with a good load and barrel. A gritty factory trigger has to be corrected, too.
After that's sorted out, then the shooter and his technique come next, as the rifle is probably good enough to discriminate the differences in loads and the shooter's ability and methods. A bad scope can ruin everything, and sometimes there's nothing left to try. They go bad, and the really cheap ones start bad.
Don't be afraid to let someone else watch you shoot and shoot your rifle if they are experienced.
Load tuning contains a big trap, and if you think you've found a load that won't shoot well with charge weights 0.1 or 0.2 grains either side of the "tuned" charge, then it is not a tuned charge and I will guarantee that accuracy will degrade when the weather changes. A robust load will tune across a 0.5 grain range of charge weights, or thereabouts.
Don't screw around with jump to the lands with magazine length cartridges. Most likely you won't be able to get in the same galaxy as the origin of the rifling with a 69 to 77 grain bullet (maybe not even with the 75 grain AMAX) in a stock rifle, and if you could, the cartridges will be too long to fit in the magazine. Load to 2.25 or 2.26 inches COAL depending on your own assessment of the risk of feed problems in the magazine, and then press on.
There's lots of information about shooting and accuracy on the internet. A fair bit of it is fantasy, and some is really good. But the only thing that matters is discerning what is required and what works for the firearm in your hands. Methods that produce marginal improvements in really good custom bolt action rifles can't be incorporated into AR's at all or if they can, mean compromise on reliability. The point is that we have to analyze and experiment with what we actually have, that's the only way to know. Knowing is everything, guessing is nothing.
The three shot groups at the top of the thread don't really tell us much. I see signs of wind in one, and vertical in another. More shots are required to understand the actual size and shape of the group. The last one is a compact, round group, and that is what we are looking for.
I recommend a couple of loads using Reloder 15 to get a good assement of the potential of your rifle. The 52 grain MK load I use is especially good.
5/20/2012 10:13:23 AM
Originally Posted By Junky:
What am I missing? What is wrong with the last group pictured? Fairly tight if you ask me.
What am I missing? What is wrong with the last group pictured? Fairly tight if you ask me.
Last group was Factory ammo, if I read it right.
OP, I would definitely say you need to try different powder weights with each particular bullet. Your post doesn't show us you did that, so we aren't sure.
It is normal to find nodes that group well, and nodes that don't. You can't just pick a powder weight and expect sub-moa groups.
Also, when you say High SD's, give me an example. >20? > 100? What?
5/20/2012 11:33:12 AM
The 55 gr TTSX target shows promise. 2 shots touching, a third close by, and two out of the group. Wind?
26.6 grs Tac is hotter than I load any 55 gr bullet. I stop at 26.0. Maybe you rifle will allow hotter loads than my AR.
How did you work up these loads? Or just pick one load and shoot a group?
The suggestion by AeroE to try Re-15 and 52 gr bullets is a good one.
In my AR it's a .5 moa 100 yd, 5 shot group load on a bad day. On a good day less. Here is the load;
Win case trimmed to 1.750, PP uniformed, 52 gr Sierra MK, 27.0 grs Re-15, Rem 7 1/2, OAL 2.250. NO crimp.
Pic of a good day.
5/20/2012 12:47:21 PM
Barnes bullets can usually take higher powder charges than traditional lead cores because they don't seal the bore as well, so use published data.
As far as finding an accurate load, SW 77gr shot well, start with that bullet, we'll call it a known performer. So SMK 77gr, combine with same headstamp brass, this ain't benchrest forget weight sorting, uniforming pirmer pockets, flashholes, or neck turning the factory didn't do any of that. Clean, lube, size, remove lube, trim, chamfer, deburr, decrimp pocket, all if needed, sort by headstamp, brass prep done. Pick a primer, one type for this load development, prime. Pick a powder for a heavy bullet, RL15, Varget, Tac, CFE 223, AR Comp, BL-C (2), whatever, make sure its a slower powder suggested for .223Rem (if time is more important than sheer accuracy consider a ball powder, they meter more consistent). Find some data, I usually start midway between min and max but you can go full scale if you want, charge 5-10 cases in .5gr incriments from min to max. Seat 77SMK at 2.25 overall length, (SMK meplat varies considerably, so I wouldn't set my die at 2.26 and don't sweat some variation you will have some) as mentioned, mag fed AR the bullets jumping a long ways don't worry about it. Mark your brass to identify the different charge weights, I like coloring the primer with a sharpie.
Go shoot them at 100yds, (further if the facility and your skill level allow for fair comparison), shoot a group of your proven factory load first to make sure all's well with the rifle, wait for your barrel to cool between groups, WATCH for pressure signs on your brass. If its real windy or major gusts don't bother. If your plan is to shoot in excess of 300-400yds you don't just want tight groups you want tight with minimal vertical dispertion. Ideally several consecutive charge weights will group well, this is a node, to simplify loading you'd pick the middle one and tune from there. If not hopefully the best group is aceptable, try .2gr either side of it for improvement, and best is your load. If this does not find you an acceptable load, try a different powder, the 77SMK is proven in this rifle. Once you have an accurate load with this bullet, experiment with others.
If later you change brass or primers you may see significant changes, or not, always test.
You may not surpass the SW load's accuracy by much, but you should be able to meet it, and do so more economically, not counting time or equipment costs.
Good luck.
As far as finding an accurate load, SW 77gr shot well, start with that bullet, we'll call it a known performer. So SMK 77gr, combine with same headstamp brass, this ain't benchrest forget weight sorting, uniforming pirmer pockets, flashholes, or neck turning the factory didn't do any of that. Clean, lube, size, remove lube, trim, chamfer, deburr, decrimp pocket, all if needed, sort by headstamp, brass prep done. Pick a primer, one type for this load development, prime. Pick a powder for a heavy bullet, RL15, Varget, Tac, CFE 223, AR Comp, BL-C (2), whatever, make sure its a slower powder suggested for .223Rem (if time is more important than sheer accuracy consider a ball powder, they meter more consistent). Find some data, I usually start midway between min and max but you can go full scale if you want, charge 5-10 cases in .5gr incriments from min to max. Seat 77SMK at 2.25 overall length, (SMK meplat varies considerably, so I wouldn't set my die at 2.26 and don't sweat some variation you will have some) as mentioned, mag fed AR the bullets jumping a long ways don't worry about it. Mark your brass to identify the different charge weights, I like coloring the primer with a sharpie.
Go shoot them at 100yds, (further if the facility and your skill level allow for fair comparison), shoot a group of your proven factory load first to make sure all's well with the rifle, wait for your barrel to cool between groups, WATCH for pressure signs on your brass. If its real windy or major gusts don't bother. If your plan is to shoot in excess of 300-400yds you don't just want tight groups you want tight with minimal vertical dispertion. Ideally several consecutive charge weights will group well, this is a node, to simplify loading you'd pick the middle one and tune from there. If not hopefully the best group is aceptable, try .2gr either side of it for improvement, and best is your load. If this does not find you an acceptable load, try a different powder, the 77SMK is proven in this rifle. Once you have an accurate load with this bullet, experiment with others.
If later you change brass or primers you may see significant changes, or not, always test.
You may not surpass the SW load's accuracy by much, but you should be able to meet it, and do so more economically, not counting time or equipment costs.
Good luck.
5/20/2012 1:07:27 PM
Wow, thanks for all the replies and advice!
I did work up those loads, I just have pictures of the last ones I have tried. TAC is the only powder I have tried so far though. No pressure signs on any of the brass. My loads are between .223 and 5.56 velocity.
The bottom pic is my "control" group using Southwest Ammunition's 77 SMK Run n Gun at 5.56 velocity, so I know my rifle is capable of tight groups. It's no bench rest rifle so I'd be happy with consistent sub 2" groups, but of course the smaller the better. I also shot a box of old Hornady TAP I had that used the V-max bullets and got all 20 rounds in about a 2" group without trying too hard, about 1 shot a second.
I did not sort my brass on my first couple work ups, I did on these last few and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. All my brass is either LC, PRVI, IMI, or PMC X-tac.
I'll try some more work-ups and a few different powders. I was looking into the CFE-223, I'll also try that RL-15. I'd like to stick with ball powder since it works much better with my L-N-L powder drop.
Thanks for all the help, I'll update with my results, probably won't be for a week or so though.
I did work up those loads, I just have pictures of the last ones I have tried. TAC is the only powder I have tried so far though. No pressure signs on any of the brass. My loads are between .223 and 5.56 velocity.
The bottom pic is my "control" group using Southwest Ammunition's 77 SMK Run n Gun at 5.56 velocity, so I know my rifle is capable of tight groups. It's no bench rest rifle so I'd be happy with consistent sub 2" groups, but of course the smaller the better. I also shot a box of old Hornady TAP I had that used the V-max bullets and got all 20 rounds in about a 2" group without trying too hard, about 1 shot a second.
I did not sort my brass on my first couple work ups, I did on these last few and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. All my brass is either LC, PRVI, IMI, or PMC X-tac.
I'll try some more work-ups and a few different powders. I was looking into the CFE-223, I'll also try that RL-15. I'd like to stick with ball powder since it works much better with my L-N-L powder drop.
Thanks for all the help, I'll update with my results, probably won't be for a week or so though.
5/20/2012 2:38:38 PM
The bottom pic is my "control" group using Southwest Ammunition's 77 SMK Run n Gun at 5.56 velocity, so I know my rifle is capable of tight groups.
When I said: "The key to accurate handloads, is firing them from an accurate rifle. ", the point I was trying to make is you need to establish that the rifle is capable of accuracy that meets your criteria. Your control groups demonstrates this but it needs to be control GROUPS. I handloaded for a long time before I realized that a single group is no indication of the accuracy capabilities of a rifle.
What I also learned is that in most cases a rifle capable of shooting small groups will do so with almost any load. Yes, tweaking powder charges, changing bullets, piddling with seating depth, etc., might help accuracy somewhat, but over all the rifle shoot s just about anything. I found that my first and only AR, a home-built DelTon would group PPU ammo into less than 2" at 100 yds. so I figured it'd do well with handloads. Sure enough, it does. Likewise, I've owned a rifle or two that should've, but wouldn't, group well with anything.
Point is, make absolutely certain your rifle is capable of the accuracy you're seeking. If you find yourself trying a dizzying array of loads, bullets, seating depths, etc trying to find reasonable accuracy, the problem is likely the rifle, not the loads.
GG
5/20/2012 5:11:33 PM
Originally Posted By BlackLabelM4:
Wow, thanks for all the replies and advice!
I did work up those loads, I just have pictures of the last ones I have tried. TAC is the only powder I have tried so far though. No pressure signs on any of the brass. My loads are between .223 and 5.56 velocity.
The bottom pic is my "control" group using Southwest Ammunition's 77 SMK Run n Gun at 5.56 velocity, so I know my rifle is capable of tight groups. It's no bench rest rifle so I'd be happy with consistent sub 2" groups, but of course the smaller the better. I also shot a box of old Hornady TAP I had that used the V-max bullets and got all 20 rounds in about a 2" group without trying too hard, about 1 shot a second.
I did not sort my brass on my first couple work ups, I did on these last few and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. All my brass is either LC, PRVI, IMI, or PMC X-tac.
I'll try some more work-ups and a few different powders. I was looking into the CFE-223, I'll also try that RL-15. I'd like to stick with ball powder since it works much better with my L-N-L powder drop.
Thanks for all the help, I'll update with my results, probably won't be for a week or so though.
Wow, thanks for all the replies and advice!
I did work up those loads, I just have pictures of the last ones I have tried. TAC is the only powder I have tried so far though. No pressure signs on any of the brass. My loads are between .223 and 5.56 velocity.
The bottom pic is my "control" group using Southwest Ammunition's 77 SMK Run n Gun at 5.56 velocity, so I know my rifle is capable of tight groups. It's no bench rest rifle so I'd be happy with consistent sub 2" groups, but of course the smaller the better. I also shot a box of old Hornady TAP I had that used the V-max bullets and got all 20 rounds in about a 2" group without trying too hard, about 1 shot a second.
I did not sort my brass on my first couple work ups, I did on these last few and it didn't seem to make much of a difference. All my brass is either LC, PRVI, IMI, or PMC X-tac.
I'll try some more work-ups and a few different powders. I was looking into the CFE-223, I'll also try that RL-15. I'd like to stick with ball powder since it works much better with my L-N-L powder drop.
Thanks for all the help, I'll update with my results, probably won't be for a week or so though.
With ball powders you may get better results with a magnum primer, closer to max loads, and/or a light crimp. Its often found that spherical powder ignition is inconsistent and these three things can help with that, a chronograph would be useful in determining if such was the culprit. Tac is not a bad powder I have worked up a couple loads with it that grouped MOA or better.
5/20/2012 5:27:47 PM
Originally Posted By ggibbs:
When I said: "The key to accurate handloads, is firing them from an accurate rifle. ", the point I was trying to make is you need to establish that the rifle is capable of accuracy that meets your criteria. Your control groups demonstrates this but it needs to be control GROUPS. I handloaded for a long time before I realized that a single group is no indication of the accuracy capabilities of a rifle.
What I also learned is that in most cases a rifle capable of shooting small groups will do so with almost any load. Yes, tweaking powder charges, changing bullets, piddling with seating depth, etc., might help accuracy somewhat, but over all the rifle shoot s just about anything. I found that my first and only AR, a home-built DelTon would group PPU ammo into less than 2" at 100 yds. so I figured it'd do well with handloads. Sure enough, it does. Likewise, I've owned a rifle or two that should've, but wouldn't, group well with anything.
Point is, make absolutely certain your rifle is capable of the accuracy you're seeking. If you find yourself trying a dizzying array of loads, bullets, seating depths, etc trying to find reasonable accuracy, the problem is likely the rifle, not the loads.
GG
The bottom pic is my "control" group using Southwest Ammunition's 77 SMK Run n Gun at 5.56 velocity, so I know my rifle is capable of tight groups.
When I said: "The key to accurate handloads, is firing them from an accurate rifle. ", the point I was trying to make is you need to establish that the rifle is capable of accuracy that meets your criteria. Your control groups demonstrates this but it needs to be control GROUPS. I handloaded for a long time before I realized that a single group is no indication of the accuracy capabilities of a rifle.
What I also learned is that in most cases a rifle capable of shooting small groups will do so with almost any load. Yes, tweaking powder charges, changing bullets, piddling with seating depth, etc., might help accuracy somewhat, but over all the rifle shoot s just about anything. I found that my first and only AR, a home-built DelTon would group PPU ammo into less than 2" at 100 yds. so I figured it'd do well with handloads. Sure enough, it does. Likewise, I've owned a rifle or two that should've, but wouldn't, group well with anything.
Point is, make absolutely certain your rifle is capable of the accuracy you're seeking. If you find yourself trying a dizzying array of loads, bullets, seating depths, etc trying to find reasonable accuracy, the problem is likely the rifle, not the loads.
GG
Or the shooter.
5/20/2012 7:25:26 PM
What do you have for twist rate?
5/20/2012 7:50:56 PM
The rifle is a 16" DI MRP 1/7 CL, Giesselle SSA, 4x-16x Millet scope (I know not the best, but good enough at 100) shot from a sled.
I have done 3/4"-1.5" groups several times with the southwest 77gr, blacks hills 77gr, mk318, and TAP 55gr V-max
I have done 3/4"-1.5" groups several times with the southwest 77gr, blacks hills 77gr, mk318, and TAP 55gr V-max
5/20/2012 8:14:09 PM
Originally Posted By AeroE:
There are lots of misconceptions about the magic of reloading. Making superior ammunition is easy, but there's more to the accuracy solution than just the ammunition.
A good bullet in a good barrel is mandatory. A good barrel is one with a chamber that is circular and concentric to the bore, a throat that is circular and concentric, a bore that is circular and is constant diameter, and especially does not flare at the muzzle, has lands and grooves that are symmetric and have uniform dimensions the length of the barrel, has no egregious machine tool marks, and has a crown that is square to the bore and burr free.
An AR without an floated barrrel will never meet it's potential even with a good load and barrel. A gritty factory trigger has to be corrected, too.
After that's sorted out, then the shooter and his technique come next, as the rifle is probably good enough to discriminate the differences in loads and the shooter's ability and methods. A bad scope can ruin everything, and sometimes there's nothing left to try. They go bad, and the really cheap ones start bad.
Don't be afraid to let someone else watch you shoot and shoot your rifle if they are experienced.
Load tuning contains a big trap, and if you think you've found a load that won't shoot well with charge weights 0.1 or 0.2 grains either side of the "tuned" charge, then it is not a tuned charge and I will guarantee that accuracy will degrade when the weather changes. A robust load will tune across a 0.5 grain range of charge weights, or thereabouts.
Don't screw around with jump to the lands with magazine length cartridges. Most likely you won't be able to get in the same galaxy as the origin of the rifling with a 69 to 77 grain bullet (maybe not even with the 75 grain AMAX) in a stock rifle, and if you could, the cartridges will be too long to fit in the magazine. Load to 2.25 or 2.26 inches COAL depending on your own assessment of the risk of feed problems in the magazine, and then press on.
There's lots of information about shooting and accuracy on the internet. A fair bit of it is fantasy, and some is really good. But the only thing that matters is discerning what is required and what works for the firearm in your hands. Methods that produce marginal improvements in really good custom bolt action rifles can't be incorporated into AR's at all or if they can, mean compromise on reliability. The point is that we have to analyze and experiment with what we actually have, that's the only way to know. Knowing is everything, guessing is nothing.
The three shot groups at the top of the thread don't really tell us much. I see signs of wind in one, and vertical in another. More shots are required to understand the actual size and shape of the group. The last one is a compact, round group, and that is what we are looking for.
I recommend a couple of loads using Reloder 15 to get a good assement of the potential of your rifle. The 52 grain MK load I use is especially good.
There are lots of misconceptions about the magic of reloading. Making superior ammunition is easy, but there's more to the accuracy solution than just the ammunition.
A good bullet in a good barrel is mandatory. A good barrel is one with a chamber that is circular and concentric to the bore, a throat that is circular and concentric, a bore that is circular and is constant diameter, and especially does not flare at the muzzle, has lands and grooves that are symmetric and have uniform dimensions the length of the barrel, has no egregious machine tool marks, and has a crown that is square to the bore and burr free.
An AR without an floated barrrel will never meet it's potential even with a good load and barrel. A gritty factory trigger has to be corrected, too.
After that's sorted out, then the shooter and his technique come next, as the rifle is probably good enough to discriminate the differences in loads and the shooter's ability and methods. A bad scope can ruin everything, and sometimes there's nothing left to try. They go bad, and the really cheap ones start bad.
Don't be afraid to let someone else watch you shoot and shoot your rifle if they are experienced.
Load tuning contains a big trap, and if you think you've found a load that won't shoot well with charge weights 0.1 or 0.2 grains either side of the "tuned" charge, then it is not a tuned charge and I will guarantee that accuracy will degrade when the weather changes. A robust load will tune across a 0.5 grain range of charge weights, or thereabouts.
Don't screw around with jump to the lands with magazine length cartridges. Most likely you won't be able to get in the same galaxy as the origin of the rifling with a 69 to 77 grain bullet (maybe not even with the 75 grain AMAX) in a stock rifle, and if you could, the cartridges will be too long to fit in the magazine. Load to 2.25 or 2.26 inches COAL depending on your own assessment of the risk of feed problems in the magazine, and then press on.
There's lots of information about shooting and accuracy on the internet. A fair bit of it is fantasy, and some is really good. But the only thing that matters is discerning what is required and what works for the firearm in your hands. Methods that produce marginal improvements in really good custom bolt action rifles can't be incorporated into AR's at all or if they can, mean compromise on reliability. The point is that we have to analyze and experiment with what we actually have, that's the only way to know. Knowing is everything, guessing is nothing.
The three shot groups at the top of the thread don't really tell us much. I see signs of wind in one, and vertical in another. More shots are required to understand the actual size and shape of the group. The last one is a compact, round group, and that is what we are looking for.
I recommend a couple of loads using Reloder 15 to get a good assement of the potential of your rifle. The 52 grain MK load I use is especially good.
Very well said, I have been trying to work out a load for a M1A Scout and it's been a chore but am getting close and believe it or not the velocity was very close to what Nosler recommended in there manual but the difference was they had 39.0g vs. my 42.0g of the same powder the big difference was I was pushing it from a 18" barrel vs. there 24" barrel.
There is no Voodoo in reloading you just have to be patient and try a few different things but you will usually always get better accuracy from a tuned load vs. mass produced over the counter ammo but the rifle and shooter have to be capable.
5/21/2012 3:17:35 AM
I can't add much to what has been said. ***AERO well put..
If I was in your position I would fall back and re-group and start a new load.
If your running a factory trigger replace it. Try a JARD.
Switch to W-748 powder (my all time favorite .223 powder.)
For a heavier bullet I'd move down to the 69 grain Sierra Match King.
Winchester small Rifle Primers would be my initial choice
I'd prep my brass to be clones
I segregate my brass to maker, and weight consistency (digital scale rules)
Ream primer pocket for uniformity
Ream inside the flash hole of brass tailings
In load development I always use my single stage, and I hand throw every powder charge from scale to brass. No powder throws
Make sure your dies are properly cleaned and adjusted Buy yourself (or have one specifically made )a small base die,always use a case guage on your brass
If I crimp I do it as a seperate action with a Lee crimp die
My target for load development is a 3x5 card that I draw a black one inch square on (MOA) I do this because if forces me to be more focused(consistent) to my point of aim during this time I make no sight adjustments
If this is a rifle you plan to run and gun with then as long as your gettingg MOA or a bit larger at 100 yards with 55 grainers I wouldn't worry about it.
MY ar varminter will put 5 in a dime at 100yards and as long as I follow my DOPE I can keep them in 6 inches at 600. But it all starts with the proper barrel and mine say Krieger.
Think about getting yourself a chrono also. Knowing velocity that your rifle starts to like makes thing move along well in development
Best of luck...
Edited due to poor spelling etc. late night
If I was in your position I would fall back and re-group and start a new load.
If your running a factory trigger replace it. Try a JARD.
Switch to W-748 powder (my all time favorite .223 powder.)
For a heavier bullet I'd move down to the 69 grain Sierra Match King.
Winchester small Rifle Primers would be my initial choice
I'd prep my brass to be clones
I segregate my brass to maker, and weight consistency (digital scale rules)
Ream primer pocket for uniformity
Ream inside the flash hole of brass tailings
In load development I always use my single stage, and I hand throw every powder charge from scale to brass. No powder throws
Make sure your dies are properly cleaned and adjusted Buy yourself (or have one specifically made )a small base die,always use a case guage on your brass
If I crimp I do it as a seperate action with a Lee crimp die
My target for load development is a 3x5 card that I draw a black one inch square on (MOA) I do this because if forces me to be more focused(consistent) to my point of aim during this time I make no sight adjustments
If this is a rifle you plan to run and gun with then as long as your gettingg MOA or a bit larger at 100 yards with 55 grainers I wouldn't worry about it.
MY ar varminter will put 5 in a dime at 100yards and as long as I follow my DOPE I can keep them in 6 inches at 600. But it all starts with the proper barrel and mine say Krieger.
Think about getting yourself a chrono also. Knowing velocity that your rifle starts to like makes thing move along well in development
Best of luck...
Edited due to poor spelling etc. late night
