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Protocol for straw purchases ?
2/18/2011 8:36:59 PM
Just wondered how you folks handle your straw buyers....
I get them occasionally... and most of the time, they are so obvious we just throw them out of the shop. Other straw buyers are more persistent and actually take some time and questioning to get them to "crack".
Case in point...
A few days ago I had an older gentleman (70's) and a younger couple (30's) come into my shop to do a handgun transfer. The older fella and the younger guy apparently "work together" but they wanted to paper the gun in the wife's name. I questioned the reasoning behind that, as the gun in question was not a typical "purse gun". It was an old collectible Colt Woodsman .22lr target pistol in mint condition. I mentioned that the transfer appeared to be suspicious and wondered why the husband wasn't doing the transfer. He then assured me... "Oh, it's definitely for my wife... she wants to carry it and use it for target shooting."
I said... "OK... we'll have a go at it..."
Paperwork ensued... She completed and signed the PA ROS (record of sale form) and then the federal 4473. The whole time I was tactfully mentioning the illegal nature of straw purchases and possible consequences. She fumbled a bit and was visibly rattled by my questioning.
After she signed and dated all the paperwork, I took it back into my office to contemplate my next move.
Not completely convinced the transfer was legit... I walked back out to the counter and explained... "I'm sorry... and don't take this personally, but I'm not entirely comfortable completing this transaction. How about if we have the husband complete the paperwork and put the gun in his name instead. ?"
The husband responds... "Ugh, ummmm, ummm, I don't think so... not right now." So... I asked why exactly is THAT ?"
He said... "Well... I had a few DUI's and some other issues... and probably won't pass the background check..."
I explained that I could not proceed with a transfer... and that they would need to leave the store. The husband then asks... "Well how about if just I leave the store ? Will you transfer it to my wife THEN ? "
I said "Sorry dude, your bridge is burned here... you will need to try elsewhere. Your $25 transfer is not worth me losing my FFL over."
Since this was near the end of the day... I waited until the next morning to follow-up on it. I called and left a message on the local BATF/PSP voicemail, advising of what transpired.
This was the 3rd straw-buy/transfer in the last few months. The first was reported and followed-up on. We had a PSP trooper from the BATF office come to the store and take info on the individuals involved.
The 2nd attempted straw buy was also reported... but never followed-up on or questioned. Never got a visit from any LE.
Same thing happened with this latest attempt. Never even got a phonecall back from LE.
I guess my question is...
Should I even bother reporting these straw-buy attempts anymore ? If BATF or PSP isn't going to follow-up on them... it's really not worth wasting my time on.
Am I required by law to report them ? It was my assumption that it was.
Thanks in advance.
I get them occasionally... and most of the time, they are so obvious we just throw them out of the shop. Other straw buyers are more persistent and actually take some time and questioning to get them to "crack".
Case in point...
A few days ago I had an older gentleman (70's) and a younger couple (30's) come into my shop to do a handgun transfer. The older fella and the younger guy apparently "work together" but they wanted to paper the gun in the wife's name. I questioned the reasoning behind that, as the gun in question was not a typical "purse gun". It was an old collectible Colt Woodsman .22lr target pistol in mint condition. I mentioned that the transfer appeared to be suspicious and wondered why the husband wasn't doing the transfer. He then assured me... "Oh, it's definitely for my wife... she wants to carry it and use it for target shooting."
I said... "OK... we'll have a go at it..."
Paperwork ensued... She completed and signed the PA ROS (record of sale form) and then the federal 4473. The whole time I was tactfully mentioning the illegal nature of straw purchases and possible consequences. She fumbled a bit and was visibly rattled by my questioning.
After she signed and dated all the paperwork, I took it back into my office to contemplate my next move.
Not completely convinced the transfer was legit... I walked back out to the counter and explained... "I'm sorry... and don't take this personally, but I'm not entirely comfortable completing this transaction. How about if we have the husband complete the paperwork and put the gun in his name instead. ?"
The husband responds... "Ugh, ummmm, ummm, I don't think so... not right now." So... I asked why exactly is THAT ?"
He said... "Well... I had a few DUI's and some other issues... and probably won't pass the background check..."
I explained that I could not proceed with a transfer... and that they would need to leave the store. The husband then asks... "Well how about if just I leave the store ? Will you transfer it to my wife THEN ? "
I said "Sorry dude, your bridge is burned here... you will need to try elsewhere. Your $25 transfer is not worth me losing my FFL over."
Since this was near the end of the day... I waited until the next morning to follow-up on it. I called and left a message on the local BATF/PSP voicemail, advising of what transpired.
This was the 3rd straw-buy/transfer in the last few months. The first was reported and followed-up on. We had a PSP trooper from the BATF office come to the store and take info on the individuals involved.
The 2nd attempted straw buy was also reported... but never followed-up on or questioned. Never got a visit from any LE.
Same thing happened with this latest attempt. Never even got a phonecall back from LE.
I guess my question is...
Should I even bother reporting these straw-buy attempts anymore ? If BATF or PSP isn't going to follow-up on them... it's really not worth wasting my time on.
Am I required by law to report them ? It was my assumption that it was.
Thanks in advance.
2/18/2011 9:20:33 PM
I'd suggest finding out what your legal obligations as an FFL are in reporting alleged attempted straw purchases.
If it's not mandatory reporting, I'd then suggest you ask yourself what you think the ethical thing is. A good case can be made that the whole NICS/4473 system is bullshit, and as long as you have no evidence that it's straw, make the sale! Another good case can be made that you have a duty to uphold the law, and that by not reporting you're violating that duty.
Only you can decide.
If it's not mandatory reporting, I'd then suggest you ask yourself what you think the ethical thing is. A good case can be made that the whole NICS/4473 system is bullshit, and as long as you have no evidence that it's straw, make the sale! Another good case can be made that you have a duty to uphold the law, and that by not reporting you're violating that duty.
Only you can decide.
2/18/2011 9:26:14 PM
You can't have enough CYA in this biz. Continue to report them and keep a log of the date, time, LE agency contacted, and who you spoke with.
2/18/2011 10:08:14 PM
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
You can't have enough CYA in this biz. Continue to report them and keep a log of the date, time, LE agency contacted, and who you spoke with.
You can't have enough CYA in this biz. Continue to report them and keep a log of the date, time, LE agency contacted, and who you spoke with.
This is how we've been handling them sofar... but the lack of concern/response by BATF/PSP is what frustrates me.
The other thing that crosses my mind is... possible probing by PSP or BATF... I have no doubt we've been "tested" previously... as some of the prior incidents were almost comical and conducted by very bad actors / undercovers.
I grew up in a LE family... so I can spot cops a mile away.
I guess I'll just keep doing what we've been doing... We are strictly "by the book" and will have it no other way.
2/19/2011 10:11:12 PM
As the ATF says, trust your gut on the sale. The law is the law, I don't care if you think it is BS it can/will land YOU in the pokey. I have had a couple potential sales where that the light was going off. I simply turned on the a$$hole mode and the questionables left on their own free will. Dragracer I would have thown them out on their A$$e$ as well.
The ATF does not really care about the small potatoes, and a straw purchase is just that to them. Case in point (names and dates changed, gun models actual): About 3 years ago I had the ATF call me with a trace on an "AA Arms AP9 with S/N OU812 shipped from XYZ Guns on Feb 19, 2011" Well I had a shipment arrive from XYZ a day later and it contained a Styer M9 with S/N OU812. I called the ATF back informed them that this was not the gun they were looking for, on top of that I remember the sale to George Bush (ok so it was anothe famous politician's name), he was way excited to find on on the shelf, I had some additional business with him along with him being an officer in the US Army (just saying he was on the up and up). ATF's respomse, "I don't care just give me the information." About 2 months later I get a call from a detective in ND (?) asking about the same gun, I go thru the same thing again, again it falls on deaf ears. At this point I am thinking, we have all seen the show '48 hours' that after 48 hours it gets harder to solve the crime. Another 2 months go by and I get a call from the ATF in ND and go thru the same thing again. This time I got somewhere, he wanted copies of my original invoice from XYZ, 4473, my sales invoice to Geo Bush. I even found pics of the 2 different guns involved and called the guy back. Turns out XYZ must have put the S/N in wrong (0U812?) and that led to me. So when this could have been figured out and corrected immediately they wasted 4 months. What a JOKE!
I have had traces done for guns that I have sold to regulars, have seen the regulars later and asked about it, 'they never contacted me about it, I traded it at BIG CHAIN store about a year ago.'
Chad
The ATF does not really care about the small potatoes, and a straw purchase is just that to them. Case in point (names and dates changed, gun models actual): About 3 years ago I had the ATF call me with a trace on an "AA Arms AP9 with S/N OU812 shipped from XYZ Guns on Feb 19, 2011" Well I had a shipment arrive from XYZ a day later and it contained a Styer M9 with S/N OU812. I called the ATF back informed them that this was not the gun they were looking for, on top of that I remember the sale to George Bush (ok so it was anothe famous politician's name), he was way excited to find on on the shelf, I had some additional business with him along with him being an officer in the US Army (just saying he was on the up and up). ATF's respomse, "I don't care just give me the information." About 2 months later I get a call from a detective in ND (?) asking about the same gun, I go thru the same thing again, again it falls on deaf ears. At this point I am thinking, we have all seen the show '48 hours' that after 48 hours it gets harder to solve the crime. Another 2 months go by and I get a call from the ATF in ND and go thru the same thing again. This time I got somewhere, he wanted copies of my original invoice from XYZ, 4473, my sales invoice to Geo Bush. I even found pics of the 2 different guns involved and called the guy back. Turns out XYZ must have put the S/N in wrong (0U812?) and that led to me. So when this could have been figured out and corrected immediately they wasted 4 months. What a JOKE!
I have had traces done for guns that I have sold to regulars, have seen the regulars later and asked about it, 'they never contacted me about it, I traded it at BIG CHAIN store about a year ago.'
Chad
2/20/2011 10:21:52 AM
Yes, report them to ATF. It shows that you do take having an FFL seriously, and you intend to do the right thing. If they don't follow up with your tip then you did your part and not much else you can do.
2/20/2011 8:32:15 PM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
Yes, report them to ATF. It shows that you do take having an FFL seriously, and you intend to do the right thing. If they don't follow up with your tip then you did your part and not much else you can do.
Yes, report them to ATF. It shows that you do take having an FFL seriously, and you intend to do the right thing. If they don't follow up with your tip then you did your part and not much else you can do.
That's pretty much the position I've had since the beginning... but it's nice to see I'm not alone in that opinion.
All I can figure is, BATF has much bigger fish to fry... and a simple straw purchase is just small potatoes compared to what they are normally up against.
I'll just keep doing what we've been doing... and continue our "by the book" operation.
2/28/2011 9:29:42 PM
Your business is your business, but since you posted-
I can see not doing it if you think it is a straw purchase, but to try and bring the man into the guys life over it?
Fuck that. Just tell them to GTFO and go on about your business.
I can see not doing it if you think it is a straw purchase, but to try and bring the man into the guys life over it?
Fuck that. Just tell them to GTFO and go on about your business.
3/1/2011 7:22:46 AM
Originally Posted By jmt1271:
Your business is your business, but since you posted-
I can see not doing it if you think it is a straw purchase, but to try and bring the man into the guys life over it?
Fuck that. Just tell them to GTFO and go on about your business.
Your business is your business, but since you posted-
I can see not doing it if you think it is a straw purchase, but to try and bring the man into the guys life over it?
Fuck that. Just tell them to GTFO and go on about your business.
But at the same time, this customer knowingly couldn't have a firearm yet he is willing to ruin the OP's business and livelihood.
3/1/2011 7:59:59 AM
Originally Posted By jmt1271:
Your business is your business, but since you posted-
I can see not doing it if you think it is a straw purchase, but to try and bring the man into the guys life over it?
Fuck that. Just tell them to GTFO and go on about your business.
Your business is your business, but since you posted-
I can see not doing it if you think it is a straw purchase, but to try and bring the man into the guys life over it?
Fuck that. Just tell them to GTFO and go on about your business.
I'm pretty sure that the application for an FFL is a gigantic invitation to invite the man into your life. He's already there - may as well try to make him comfortable.
3/1/2011 11:22:42 AM
Originally Posted By jmt1271:
Your business is your business, but since you posted-
I can see not doing it if you think it is a straw purchase, but to try and bring the man into the guys life over it?
Fuck that. Just tell them to GTFO and go on about your business.
Your business is your business, but since you posted-
I can see not doing it if you think it is a straw purchase, but to try and bring the man into the guys life over it?
Fuck that. Just tell them to GTFO and go on about your business.
Are you an FFL?
Do you view the reporting of other crimes in a similiar fashion?
Sorry, I don't take kindly to liars, straw purchasers or Mayor Bloombergs pretend straw purchasers. Straw purchases are illegal period.
Anyone that seeks to involve me and my business in a Federal crime brings the man into his life all by himself.
3/1/2011 12:54:49 PM
All is well.
I spoke with an "Official" this morning and presented the question to him.
In a nutshell... YES, they DO have bigger fish to fry... and can't always investigate smaller incidents like straw purchases... but he did appreciate the phone call and advised continuing to do so in the future. It helps with intelligence gathering and detecting patterns in illegal behavior.
In the future, I will continue doing as we have... that is... make the phone call and leave a brief message about the incident. If it warrants investigation, it will be followed-up on.
Those folks who choose to ignore illegal behavior and think it's an invitation for "The Man" to come into your life... You are only helping to enable illegal activity.
We choose to do the right thing and report illegal activity to Law Enforcement.
I spoke with an "Official" this morning and presented the question to him.
In a nutshell... YES, they DO have bigger fish to fry... and can't always investigate smaller incidents like straw purchases... but he did appreciate the phone call and advised continuing to do so in the future. It helps with intelligence gathering and detecting patterns in illegal behavior.
In the future, I will continue doing as we have... that is... make the phone call and leave a brief message about the incident. If it warrants investigation, it will be followed-up on.
Those folks who choose to ignore illegal behavior and think it's an invitation for "The Man" to come into your life... You are only helping to enable illegal activity.
We choose to do the right thing and report illegal activity to Law Enforcement.
3/1/2011 1:34:22 PM
Just threw two guys out a day ago, for a similar situation. We never got to paperwork on these guys though.
Two guys walk in... one has a 1911 he wants us to have a look at. The other is drooling on the gun counter. We make small talk with both... and got some suspicious replies from one of them. (drooling guy).
He was a little rough around the edges... so when he asked to look at a gun, I asked if he had a LTCF. He said "No, but my GF is soon getting hers." Right away the lightbulb in my head goes off... I politely refused to remove the gun from the case... and started questioning WHY the GF is getting a permit and he isn't. He dodged the question and changed the subject.
He is making me more suspicious the more he opens his mouth.
He then tells me about his "sword collection" and how nice it would be to have a gun... but they won't let him have one until the year 20XX.
I asked "Why is THAT?"
His reply ?
"I was convicted of a FELONY in 20XX and can't own a gun..."
Next thing out of my mouth was... "YOU need to leave the store NOW... No farting around, no browsing... just leave NOW."
His buddy got tossed out too, just for bringing a felon into my store. I first asked him... "Are you two guys buddies?" After his "YES" reply, I told him, "Nothing personal... but since you knowingly brought a felon into my shop, you are not welcome here. YOU also need to leave right now."
I'm actually thinking about buying an ID scanner to keep on the counter just to prove these dirtbags were in the store so I can put their stupid asses in jail.
Two guys walk in... one has a 1911 he wants us to have a look at. The other is drooling on the gun counter. We make small talk with both... and got some suspicious replies from one of them. (drooling guy).
He was a little rough around the edges... so when he asked to look at a gun, I asked if he had a LTCF. He said "No, but my GF is soon getting hers." Right away the lightbulb in my head goes off... I politely refused to remove the gun from the case... and started questioning WHY the GF is getting a permit and he isn't. He dodged the question and changed the subject.
He is making me more suspicious the more he opens his mouth.
He then tells me about his "sword collection" and how nice it would be to have a gun... but they won't let him have one until the year 20XX.
I asked "Why is THAT?"
His reply ?
"I was convicted of a FELONY in 20XX and can't own a gun..."
Next thing out of my mouth was... "YOU need to leave the store NOW... No farting around, no browsing... just leave NOW."
His buddy got tossed out too, just for bringing a felon into my store. I first asked him... "Are you two guys buddies?" After his "YES" reply, I told him, "Nothing personal... but since you knowingly brought a felon into my shop, you are not welcome here. YOU also need to leave right now."
I'm actually thinking about buying an ID scanner to keep on the counter just to prove these dirtbags were in the store so I can put their stupid asses in jail.
3/2/2011 10:10:30 AM
Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art:
All is well.
I spoke with an "Official" this morning and presented the question to him.
In a nutshell... YES, they DO have bigger fish to fry... and can't always investigate smaller incidents like straw purchases...
All is well.
I spoke with an "Official" this morning and presented the question to him.
In a nutshell... YES, they DO have bigger fish to fry... and can't always investigate smaller incidents like straw purchases...
Sometimes "smaller incidents like straw purchases" are actually major cases with international significance.
http://www.statesman.com/news/local/indictment-son-mom-sold-guns-to-cartels-1291367.html
The guns Jose Lira wanted, that he would give to his mother to sell in Mexico, were "exclusively assault style 'AR 15' and 'AK 47' style firearms" the weapons preferred by the Mexican drug cartels, according to a federal affidavit.
