Archived Posts » 59,646,491
Is the LEO sign off really going away?
1/11/2012 9:00:59 PM
Is the LEO sign of really going away?
I have heard it is pretty much a done deal that form 1 & form 4's will soon not need a CLEO sign off, only notifications?
I also heard the NFA itself is pushing to allow 07/SOT & Class 3 dealers to do the background checks to speed everything up?
I have heard it is pretty much a done deal that form 1 & form 4's will soon not need a CLEO sign off, only notifications?
I also heard the NFA itself is pushing to allow 07/SOT & Class 3 dealers to do the background checks to speed everything up?
1/11/2012 9:50:01 PM
And how would a FFL/SOT do a background check? What would you do. Just Google their name and hope for the best? I think you are getting bad info.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
1/11/2012 11:29:53 PM
Originally Posted By bullet3:
And how would a FFL/SOT do a background check? What would you do. Just Google their name and hope for the best? I think you are getting bad info.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
And how would a FFL/SOT do a background check? What would you do. Just Google their name and hope for the best? I think you are getting bad info.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
I background check people all the time, I have them fill out a 4473 and call in.
What do you think an examiner does at the ATF?
1/12/2012 1:47:22 AM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Is the LEO sign of really going away?
I also heard the NFA itself is pushing to allow 07/SOT & Class 3 dealers to do the background checks to speed everything up?
Is the LEO sign of really going away?
I also heard the NFA itself is pushing to allow 07/SOT & Class 3 dealers to do the background checks to speed everything up?
1) Yes, I heard it was announced at the SAR show and that ATF will follow up with a release sometime in Jan or Feb. Its a change in the right direction
2) As awesome as that would be, I highly doubt they would let go of control on that program to the dealers, but if they did our Class III sales would spike in an amazing way!
1/12/2012 10:54:31 AM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
I background check people all the time, I have them fill out a 4473 and call in.
What do you think an examiner does at the ATF?
[/quote]
I thought you were talking about the in depth back ground check that they currently do. Meaning the photo, fingerprint cards and so forth. Not the 4473 style check that just checks to see if it is legal for you to own and or purchase a firearm. I don't work at the NFA branch. But I would hope that they are doing a deeper background check than just calling in the NICS and it taking 6 months to do so. But who knows that might be all they are doing.
1/12/2012 11:16:37 AM
Originally Posted By bullet3:
I background check people all the time, I have them fill out a 4473 and call in.
What do you think an examiner does at the ATF?
Originally Posted By jrzy:
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
I background check people all the time, I have them fill out a 4473 and call in.
What do you think an examiner does at the ATF?
I thought you were talking about the in depth back ground check that they currently do. Meaning the photo, fingerprint cards and so forth. Not the 4473 style check that just checks to see if it is legal for you to own and or purchase a firearm. I don't work at the NFA branch. But I would hope that they are doing a deeper background check than just calling in the NICS and it taking 6 months to do so. But who knows that might be all they are doing.
[/quote]
I was under the impression that if using a trust you do not have to send in finger prints..... If this is correct then how in depth could it be? I would think a ncic check would be it along with making sure all the paper work is in order.
1/12/2012 11:24:13 AM
We are supposed to meet with an ATF/NFA rep at SHOT. They have been looking at removing the CLEO requirement for some time now. One of the reasons is the uptick in the number of trusts that folks are submitting. That is a lot of paperowork to review. 90% of our customers prefer going the Trust route. No longer requiring a CLEO signature will lessen the load some; however, many folks still will go the trust route because of all of the other benefits.
There is still not a need to do a NICS check before paperwork is submitted, even on a trust. A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to. Regardless, there is some type of check done on both individuals and transferees who are part of an entity.
There is still not a need to do a NICS check before paperwork is submitted, even on a trust. A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to. Regardless, there is some type of check done on both individuals and transferees who are part of an entity.
1/12/2012 11:50:27 AM
Originally Posted By bullet3:
I background check people all the time, I have them fill out a 4473 and call in.
What do you think an examiner does at the ATF?
Originally Posted By jrzy:
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
I background check people all the time, I have them fill out a 4473 and call in.
What do you think an examiner does at the ATF?
I thought you were talking about the in depth back ground check that they currently do. Meaning the photo, fingerprint cards and so forth. Not the 4473 style check that just checks to see if it is legal for you to own and or purchase a firearm. I don't work at the NFA branch. But I would hope that they are doing a deeper background check than just calling in the NICS and it taking 6 months to do so. But who knows that might be all they are doing.
[/quote]
I know a few examiners and when they do the backgroiund part of the check with the FBI it is the same check as a 4473, it goes through NCIC
That will show any arrests or even anytime your were put into the system.
1/12/2012 12:12:56 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
I know a few examiners and when they do the backgroiund part of the check with the FBI it is the same check as a 4473, it goes through NCIC
That will show any arrests or even anytime your were put into the system.
I know a few examiners and when they do the backgroiund part of the check with the FBI it is the same check as a 4473, it goes through NCIC
That will show any arrests or even anytime your were put into the system.
Ok, I understand that part and agree with you. But what else are they doing? Why the need for the fingerprint cards and photo then? There has to be more to it than just a phone call.
On a side note are we getting 2 different types of checks confused here? A PA dealer calls in the PICS Pa instant check system. 38 or so other State dealers call into the NICS or National instant check system. You stated NCIC. That is the National Crime Information Center and that is not what a dealer calls a check into. I thought that was for LEO/GOV only? The PICS / NICS will say YES or NO only to the purchase or transfer of a gun. The NCIC will show criminal history of a individual. To my understanding a civi or non-LEO/GOV does not have access to NCIC.
Just want to make sure I am getting this right.
1/12/2012 1:45:26 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
I background check people all the time, I have them fill out a 4473 and call in.
What do you think an examiner does at the ATF?
Originally Posted By bullet3:
And how would a FFL/SOT do a background check? What would you do. Just Google their name and hope for the best? I think you are getting bad info.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
And how would a FFL/SOT do a background check? What would you do. Just Google their name and hope for the best? I think you are getting bad info.
As far as the LEO signoff. I thought the ATF was going to review this in the near future. Not make it go away as of yet.
I background check people all the time, I have them fill out a 4473 and call in.
What do you think an examiner does at the ATF?
They dial one digit a month when calling for the background check, while taking lots of coffee breaks.
The stupidity of the approval process is mind boggling. After approving your first device, why do they need to approve any others with the same process? You still have the first device, so what are they going to do, just turn you down and forget it?
1/12/2012 1:58:12 PM
Originally Posted By bullet3:
Ok, I understand that part and agree with you. But what else are they doing? Why the need for the fingerprint cards and photo then? There has to be more to it than just a phone call.
On a side note are we getting 2 different types of checks confused here? A PA dealer calls in the PICS Pa instant check system. 38 or so other State dealers call into the NICS or National instant check system. You stated NCIC. That is the National Crime Information Center and that is not what a dealer calls a check into. I thought that was for LEO/GOV only? The PICS / NICS will say YES or NO only to the purchase or transfer of a gun. The NCIC will show criminal history of a individual. To my understanding a civi or non-LEO/GOV does not have access to NCIC.
Just want to make sure I am getting this right.
I call PICS, true, the PICS operator calls into the NCIC crime data base or logs in onlineOriginally Posted By jrzy:
I know a few examiners and when they do the backgroiund part of the check with the FBI it is the same check as a 4473, it goes through NCIC
That will show any arrests or even anytime your were put into the system.
I know a few examiners and when they do the backgroiund part of the check with the FBI it is the same check as a 4473, it goes through NCIC
That will show any arrests or even anytime your were put into the system.
Ok, I understand that part and agree with you. But what else are they doing? Why the need for the fingerprint cards and photo then? There has to be more to it than just a phone call.
On a side note are we getting 2 different types of checks confused here? A PA dealer calls in the PICS Pa instant check system. 38 or so other State dealers call into the NICS or National instant check system. You stated NCIC. That is the National Crime Information Center and that is not what a dealer calls a check into. I thought that was for LEO/GOV only? The PICS / NICS will say YES or NO only to the purchase or transfer of a gun. The NCIC will show criminal history of a individual. To my understanding a civi or non-LEO/GOV does not have access to NCIC.
Just want to make sure I am getting this right.
NICS calls into the NCIC data base too.
1/12/2012 6:04:29 PM
Scuttlebutt is that the CLEO part is supposed to go away completely - they even want to do away with notification.
1/12/2012 6:14:39 PM
Originally Posted By amatac:
We are supposed to meet with an ATF/NFA rep at SHOT. They have been looking at removing the CLEO requirement for some time now. One of the reasons is the uptick in the number of trusts that folks are submitting. That is a lot of paperowork to review. 90% of our customers prefer going the Trust route. No longer requiring a CLEO signature will lessen the load some; however, many folks still will go the trust route because of all of the other benefits.
There is still not a need to do a NICS check before paperwork is submitted, even on a trust. A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to. Regardless, there is some type of check done on both individuals and transferees who are part of an entity.
There is still not a need to do a NICS check before paperwork is submitted, even on a trust. A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to. Regardless, there is some type of check done on both individuals and transferees who are part of an entity.
So, as trustee, when I go to pick up my cans for my trust, a 4473 will be completed on me, right?
If I had gone the direct route - no trust - the ATF would have run a check on me instead of the trust....
Would my dealer still have to fill out a 4473 and call it in, even though I sent in fingerprints, photo, etc.? If so, that seems weird.
But not surprising.
1/12/2012 6:15:30 PM
I really wish I knew a timetable on this going through and the new forms and process being available. I've gotten together about five NFA projects, and a few hundred bucks saved up, and am ready to take the plunge. I have a DD, three guns I want to SBR, and a Suppressor I want to get rolling on.
If it's going to take a year, then the benefits of a trust and $300 give or take to my lawyer is still worth it. If it happens by this spring, I'll just sit tight and that $300 or so will pay for one more NFA tax-stamp and a stock for one of the SBR projects.
If it's going to take a year, then the benefits of a trust and $300 give or take to my lawyer is still worth it. If it happens by this spring, I'll just sit tight and that $300 or so will pay for one more NFA tax-stamp and a stock for one of the SBR projects.
1/13/2012 10:54:17 AM
Originally Posted By criley:
So, as trustee, when I go to pick up my cans for my trust, a 4473 will be completed on me, right?
If I had gone the direct route - no trust - the ATF would have run a check on me instead of the trust....
Would my dealer still have to fill out a 4473 and call it in, even though I sent in fingerprints, photo, etc.? If so, that seems weird.
But not surprising.
So, as trustee, when I go to pick up my cans for my trust, a 4473 will be completed on me, right?
If I had gone the direct route - no trust - the ATF would have run a check on me instead of the trust....
Would my dealer still have to fill out a 4473 and call it in, even though I sent in fingerprints, photo, etc.? If so, that seems weird.
But not surprising.
Those of us that have been in the business longer probably remember an older 4473 that has a box you could check to exempt this transaction from a instant check if it was a NFA transfer.
Somebody probably has a scan of that old form on the web somewhere....
TR
1/13/2012 12:49:58 PM
Originally Posted By The_Rock:
Those of us that have been in the business longer probably remember an older 4473 that has a box you could check to exempt this transaction from a instant check if it was a NFA transfer.
Somebody probably has a scan of that old form on the web somewhere....
TR
Originally Posted By criley:
So, as trustee, when I go to pick up my cans for my trust, a 4473 will be completed on me, right?
If I had gone the direct route - no trust - the ATF would have run a check on me instead of the trust....
Would my dealer still have to fill out a 4473 and call it in, even though I sent in fingerprints, photo, etc.? If so, that seems weird.
But not surprising.
So, as trustee, when I go to pick up my cans for my trust, a 4473 will be completed on me, right?
If I had gone the direct route - no trust - the ATF would have run a check on me instead of the trust....
Would my dealer still have to fill out a 4473 and call it in, even though I sent in fingerprints, photo, etc.? If so, that seems weird.
But not surprising.
Those of us that have been in the business longer probably remember an older 4473 that has a box you could check to exempt this transaction from a instant check if it was a NFA transfer.
Somebody probably has a scan of that old form on the web somewhere....
TR
The currrent forms still have that box.............
1/13/2012 4:59:08 PM
If it is all in your name we would still fill out a 4473 but would not need to call in for a NICs check.
If in a trust or LLCs name and you are picking it up, we do a 4473 AND run the NICs check.
If in a trust or LLCs name and you are picking it up, we do a 4473 AND run the NICs check.
1/13/2012 6:41:02 PM
Originally Posted By docpadds:
If it is all in your name we would still fill out a 4473 but would not need to call in for a NICs check.
If in a trust or LLCs name and you are picking it up, we do a 4473 AND run the NICs check.
If it is all in your name we would still fill out a 4473 but would not need to call in for a NICs check.
If in a trust or LLCs name and you are picking it up, we do a 4473 AND run the NICs check.
Makes sense to me.
Thanks.
1/18/2012 2:23:11 AM
If you have a CLEO signature you don't need to do a 4473.
If you have a trust or corporation, you (or whomever is picking it up as a trustee or authorized officer of the corporation) will need to do a 4473. This is the same as picking up any firearm in the name of a trust or corporation.
For a few small reasons I like the trust route, even if the signature wasn't needed. Unless there was a way to have multiple people listed as owners of the NFA item. If I leave the house and I leave a suppressor in the safe, it's technically an unlawful transfer since my wife has the combo.
If you have a trust or corporation, you (or whomever is picking it up as a trustee or authorized officer of the corporation) will need to do a 4473. This is the same as picking up any firearm in the name of a trust or corporation.
For a few small reasons I like the trust route, even if the signature wasn't needed. Unless there was a way to have multiple people listed as owners of the NFA item. If I leave the house and I leave a suppressor in the safe, it's technically an unlawful transfer since my wife has the combo.
1/18/2012 12:56:13 PM
Originally Posted By amatac:
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
1/18/2012 2:12:19 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
Originally Posted By amatac:
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
+1 - ATF has asked FFLs to run checks on the trustee/corp officer, but cannot REQUIRE them to do so.
At my last compliance inspection, my ATF inspector specifically asked me why I don't run NICS checks on trustee transfers, and I said because it wasn't required.
He affirmed this, but reiterated ATF would really like for me to do so anyway. I told him I'd do what the law required.
1/18/2012 2:50:57 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
Federally, yesOriginally Posted By amatac:
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
My state Pa requires us to BG check the people picking up any NFA waepon
4473 filed out and all
1/18/2012 3:53:10 PM
Originally Posted By Circuits:
+1 - ATF has asked FFLs to run checks on the trustee/corp officer, but cannot REQUIRE them to do so.
At my last compliance inspection, my ATF inspector specifically asked me why I don't run NICS checks on trustee transfers, and I said because it wasn't required.
He affirmed this, but reiterated ATF would really like for me to do so anyway. I told him I'd do what the law required.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
Originally Posted By amatac:
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
+1 - ATF has asked FFLs to run checks on the trustee/corp officer, but cannot REQUIRE them to do so.
At my last compliance inspection, my ATF inspector specifically asked me why I don't run NICS checks on trustee transfers, and I said because it wasn't required.
He affirmed this, but reiterated ATF would really like for me to do so anyway. I told him I'd do what the law required.
Interesting.
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
1/18/2012 4:57:31 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
I read it in the FFL newsletter. Just did a quick web search and it was on page five of the November, 2008 newsletter. Later reversed themselves.
1/18/2012 5:44:53 PM
Originally Posted By Circuits:
I read it in the FFL newsletter. Just did a quick web search and it was on page five of the November, 2008 newsletter. Later reversed themselves.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
I read it in the FFL newsletter. Just did a quick web search and it was on page five of the November, 2008 newsletter. Later reversed themselves.
That is where they say it is exempt from NICS background check:
1/19/2012 5:35:48 PM
My friend has a letter that is in direct opposition to that.
http://www.kwikrnu.com/BATFE%20opinion%20letters/batfe%20atf%20letters%20and%20response%20several%20letters%20one%20response%20%20trust%20nfa%20background%20check%208-12-2011.pdf
http://www.kwikrnu.com/BATFE%20opinion%20letters/batfe%20atf%20letters%20and%20response%20several%20letters%20one%20response%20%20trust%20nfa%20background%20check%208-12-2011.pdf
1/19/2012 7:06:39 PM
Originally Posted By browningfan91:
My friend has a letter that is in direct opposition to that.
http://www.kwikrnu.com/BATFE%20opinion%20letters/batfe%20atf%20letters%20and%20response%20several%20letters%20one%20response%20%20trust%20nfa%20background%20check%208-12-2011.pdf
My friend has a letter that is in direct opposition to that.
http://www.kwikrnu.com/BATFE%20opinion%20letters/batfe%20atf%20letters%20and%20response%20several%20letters%20one%20response%20%20trust%20nfa%20background%20check%208-12-2011.pdf
So much incorrect info in that exchange it is truly sad.
Why people feel the need to write letters when they should just read forms & follow the instructions is beyond me. Question 22 on the 4473 is quite simple. Just check the box and move on.
1/19/2012 8:14:27 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Interesting.
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
Originally Posted By Circuits:
+1 - ATF has asked FFLs to run checks on the trustee/corp officer, but cannot REQUIRE them to do so.
At my last compliance inspection, my ATF inspector specifically asked me why I don't run NICS checks on trustee transfers, and I said because it wasn't required.
He affirmed this, but reiterated ATF would really like for me to do so anyway. I told him I'd do what the law required.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
Originally Posted By amatac:
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
+1 - ATF has asked FFLs to run checks on the trustee/corp officer, but cannot REQUIRE them to do so.
At my last compliance inspection, my ATF inspector specifically asked me why I don't run NICS checks on trustee transfers, and I said because it wasn't required.
He affirmed this, but reiterated ATF would really like for me to do so anyway. I told him I'd do what the law required.
Interesting.
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
Our IOI's have stated it's a requirement, but they also wanted a letter from the trust or corporation granting whomever is picking up the item permission to do so.
1/19/2012 10:15:00 PM
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
Our IOI's have stated it's a requirement, but they also wanted a letter from the trust or corporation granting whomever is picking up the item permission to do so.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Interesting.
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
Originally Posted By Circuits:
+1 - ATF has asked FFLs to run checks on the trustee/corp officer, but cannot REQUIRE them to do so.
At my last compliance inspection, my ATF inspector specifically asked me why I don't run NICS checks on trustee transfers, and I said because it wasn't required.
He affirmed this, but reiterated ATF would really like for me to do so anyway. I told him I'd do what the law required.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
Originally Posted By amatac:
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
A 4473 must be completed and a NICS check MUST be completed on the Trustee who the item is being transferred to.
This is completely INCORRECT and for whatever reason it will not die.
Federal Law specifically states NO NICS check is required fro NFA xfers. It would take an ACT of CONGRESS and Presidential signature to change this. Not going to happen anytime soon.
+1 - ATF has asked FFLs to run checks on the trustee/corp officer, but cannot REQUIRE them to do so.
At my last compliance inspection, my ATF inspector specifically asked me why I don't run NICS checks on trustee transfers, and I said because it wasn't required.
He affirmed this, but reiterated ATF would really like for me to do so anyway. I told him I'd do what the law required.
Interesting.
I have never been asked, nor have I seen any "Open Letter to FFLs" asking.
Our IOI's have stated it's a requirement, but they also wanted a letter from the trust or corporation granting whomever is picking up the item permission to do so.
I see a pattern here. Still wrong on both counts. Only Corps & other business entities have to provide the letter, trust is not a business but a legal entity.
Section A, Question 1, on the 4473 Instructions/Notices.
