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Exactly what's in your electronic lock? Public service announcement.....
2/16/2012 10:12:00 AM
When my La Gard electronic lock failed 6 months into owning the safe, I was not happy. I was lucky that it failed in the "open" position than the closed. Winchester service was nice enough - just fax a copy of my purchase receipt, and they'd send me a new lock. Word of advice here - make a real paper zerox copy of your receipt - thermal paper does not last more than a few months till it fades so much you can't read it.
Since the original lock was toast, I figured I'd take the warranty "seal" off and see what made it tick. Needless to say, I'm getting a mechanical lock to replace it.
Das Lock: Typical swing bolt. That is, bolt swings back rather than moves up and down. See that little notch on the side. When you push against the bolt, it moves to the rear a little, pushing that notch against the side of the lock body - "locking" the bolt. You'll see why this is necessary in a bit.
The guts. I laugh when I read people that think they can sore a new key pad and use it if their lock breaks or they forget the combination. The brains of the lock are in the lock, not the keypad.
Ok, so you got a rotating cam, a pin that stops the cam from rotating, and a smaller pin that locks the cam pin. The tiny little pin is in some sort of magnet that pushes it in and out. This is what I'm assuming failed on mine, as it wouldn't "lock".
There you have it. This is the pin that actually keeps your safe locked (with my finger for reference). Yea, my mechanical lock should be here any day now.
Since the original lock was toast, I figured I'd take the warranty "seal" off and see what made it tick. Needless to say, I'm getting a mechanical lock to replace it.
Das Lock: Typical swing bolt. That is, bolt swings back rather than moves up and down. See that little notch on the side. When you push against the bolt, it moves to the rear a little, pushing that notch against the side of the lock body - "locking" the bolt. You'll see why this is necessary in a bit.
The guts. I laugh when I read people that think they can sore a new key pad and use it if their lock breaks or they forget the combination. The brains of the lock are in the lock, not the keypad.
Ok, so you got a rotating cam, a pin that stops the cam from rotating, and a smaller pin that locks the cam pin. The tiny little pin is in some sort of magnet that pushes it in and out. This is what I'm assuming failed on mine, as it wouldn't "lock".
There you have it. This is the pin that actually keeps your safe locked (with my finger for reference). Yea, my mechanical lock should be here any day now.
2/16/2012 10:27:21 AM
Your post gives a good example of the complexity of a UL rated electronic lock, which is why there is a higher failure rate with electronics. All it takes is one of those many many parts to malfunction, and the lock can be dead in the water.
However, all UL rated locks need to undergo testing in order to get that label, and part of that testing includes brute force. That little pin may not look like much, but it will keep your safe locked just as well as any other UL rated lock you'll put on it. This is one of the reasons that reputable safe manufacturers design their handes to slip or break, or the boltwork to slide or twist, when an attempt is made to place pressure against the lock itself.
In fact, it's a piece not at all much bigger than that piece, that ultimately will keep your mechanical lock locked as well.
However, all UL rated locks need to undergo testing in order to get that label, and part of that testing includes brute force. That little pin may not look like much, but it will keep your safe locked just as well as any other UL rated lock you'll put on it. This is one of the reasons that reputable safe manufacturers design their handes to slip or break, or the boltwork to slide or twist, when an attempt is made to place pressure against the lock itself.
In fact, it's a piece not at all much bigger than that piece, that ultimately will keep your mechanical lock locked as well.
2/16/2012 10:49:30 AM
Yes, but I'm figuring that gravity will help with a simple vertical bolt that has to be manually retracted.
I like the electronic lock. It's fast, simple, can change combinations, etc. What I'm not happy about is that it quit after 6 months. I had a cheap Sentry safe with a mechanical lock for 10 years and never had a problem. What I really scratch my head is that the lock didn't "break" where I can chock it up to simple broken bad luck piece. Some chip fried somewhere and turned the lock into a paperweight. I can get a 10 year lock warranty for $75 where they'll come out and open my safe if the lock fails, but I'm not exactly fond of the idea of having the safe drilled to replace a bum lock - warranty or not.
Everything I've read says it's not a matter of "if" but "when" the electronic lock is going to quit. Others are saying it's a 20-1 ratio of drilling electronic locks versus mechanical. Like I said, I like the e-lock, just don't have a whole lot of faith in it.
I like the electronic lock. It's fast, simple, can change combinations, etc. What I'm not happy about is that it quit after 6 months. I had a cheap Sentry safe with a mechanical lock for 10 years and never had a problem. What I really scratch my head is that the lock didn't "break" where I can chock it up to simple broken bad luck piece. Some chip fried somewhere and turned the lock into a paperweight. I can get a 10 year lock warranty for $75 where they'll come out and open my safe if the lock fails, but I'm not exactly fond of the idea of having the safe drilled to replace a bum lock - warranty or not.
Everything I've read says it's not a matter of "if" but "when" the electronic lock is going to quit. Others are saying it's a 20-1 ratio of drilling electronic locks versus mechanical. Like I said, I like the e-lock, just don't have a whole lot of faith in it.
2/16/2012 2:20:45 PM
Thanks for the informal post, somewhat frightening as I have a similar lock (LaGard 6040 with deadbolt). I have two safes, one with a LaGard 3330 mechanical lock and one with a 6040 electronic lock with 3125 keypad. As the latter safe with the electronic lock would be a nightmare to get open in case the lock fails, I've been thinking about swapping the locks between the safes, pros/cons? At least the 3125 keypad has a power connector so you can connect a 9volt battery in case the battery is flat... The 3125 Auditguard keypad is waaay overkill for my needs by the way.
2/16/2012 4:43:11 PM
Originally Posted By k80clay:
There you have it. This is the pin that actually keeps your safe locked (with my finger for reference). Yea, my mechanical lock should be here any day now.
There you have it. This is the pin that actually keeps your safe locked (with my finger for reference). Yea, my mechanical lock should be here any day now.
There is more to this lock than what initially meets the eye. The small rod is one part of it.
When pressure is applied to the lock bolt, the following happens:
1. The pivot spring (hard to see) is compressed and the bolt itself moves to the left.
2-3. The notch in the bolt (2) latches onto the protrusion in the lock case (3). The reinforced edge of the case then takes the force.
In addition, there's a 1/4" mounting bolt right next to that whole area (goes in hole in "3") that helps to hold the reinforced case area in place.
You'd be surprised how much force that bolt can take and when you're talking about forcing a lock bolt to the open position, there's really no difference between mechanical and electronic locks .But there's no safe lock that's designed to withstand a severe attack by itself. It's the job of the safe to keep the lock protected from attack and ensure that the safe remains locked. Good safes will incorporate many different features to do this.
2/17/2012 12:53:07 AM
Direct force applied to the end of one of the opening door side lock bolts wont even force that Lagard lock open. However, direct force applied to the locking bolts on a Winchester with an LP lock will force the lock open. I know this from experience testing the two of them. That Lagard lock may not look like much, but it will withstand a lot of punishment to the swingbolt and connected mechanism parts. If the actual lock case is blown out, then the relocker in the safe door can be triggered which in turn will lock the safe mechanism in the closed position.
2/17/2012 11:07:56 AM
However, direct force applied to the locking bolts on a Winchester with an LP lock will force the lock open.
Direct force to any lock can open it if the force is great enough. This is why safe manufacturers design their safes to prevent force from reaching the lock bolt. The design of the LP isn't much different than the LaGard. Instead of a "hook" on the swingbolt, it uses a "geared" pattern on the lock case and swingbolt. When pressure is applied, the "gears" mesh which resists rotation.
2/17/2012 11:19:48 AM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
Direct force to any lock can open it if the force is great enough. This is why safe manufacturers design their safes to prevent force from reaching the lock bolt. The design of the LP isn't much different than the LaGard. Instead of a "hook" on the swingbolt, it uses a "geared" pattern on the lock case and swingbolt. When pressure is applied, the "gears" mesh which resists rotation.
However, direct force applied to the locking bolts on a Winchester with an LP lock will force the lock open.
Direct force to any lock can open it if the force is great enough. This is why safe manufacturers design their safes to prevent force from reaching the lock bolt. The design of the LP isn't much different than the LaGard. Instead of a "hook" on the swingbolt, it uses a "geared" pattern on the lock case and swingbolt. When pressure is applied, the "gears" mesh which resists rotation.
Yes, and if you pound on the bolts of a winchester with a punch, and it has an LP lock, it will open.
When we did it to a Lagard, it still would not open. The Lagard will take a lot more "Force".
2/17/2012 1:08:10 PM
When we did it to a Lagard, it still would not open. The Lagard will take a lot more "Force".
I haven't noticed a major difference. There's a particular commercial safe where punching the bolts is one of the better opening methods. I've opened these safes with just about every type of lock being used on them, and they've all opened with about the same amount of effort.
2/17/2012 8:06:19 PM
Any idea how to get the La Gard keypad off? I figured it was just on 2 screws - tap it up, pull off the screws - but it ain't happening. I can get it to move up and down, but can't pull it off.
Nevermind - figured it out.
Nevermind - figured it out.
