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Changing locks on safe AAR UPDATE
2/18/2012 7:31:31 PM
How difficult is it to change out an electronic lock to a combo lock? Anyone know what a locksmith might charge?
AAR Update added below.
AAR Update added below.
2/18/2012 7:48:57 PM
Depends on what model safe, why are you changing, believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials... I priced doing a conversion on a sentry and it was only a little more to buy a new safe... Now if you have a high end safe {which most of them have dual entry mechs} than it may be worth it..
2/18/2012 8:31:34 PM
It is more difficult to go from an electronic to a mechanical than a mechanical to an electronic. You didn't state what type of safe you are dealing with, so I will assume that whatever it is has a UL rated lock on it.
You're looking at a new lock, dial, and dial ring ($120 to $200), a service call ($40-$100), and labor ($75-$150).
You're looking at a new lock, dial, and dial ring ($120 to $200), a service call ($40-$100), and labor ($75-$150).
2/18/2012 8:32:40 PM
Fairly easy. Did mine last night. Group 2 locks have the same footprint. Remove old lock and keypad, install new lock and dial. www.kaba-mas.com has all kinds of instructions you can download.
2/19/2012 3:32:44 AM
The biggest thing to watch out for is spindle alignment and seating the packs when you set the combination. If you do it right, the lock will run pretty trouble free.
2/20/2012 1:34:20 PM
cost me $150 for the lock and $100 for the install
2/21/2012 11:51:44 AM
I swapped a mechanical Rosengrens RKL-10 lock and an electronic Lagard 6040 between two safes, I paid the locksmith for an hour of work.
2/21/2012 11:34:32 PM
This is a reminder to myself to get up off my ass and order a Group 2 S&G mechanical dial lock to replace the S&G electronic lock. My electro lock is needing to have the code entered twice to open more and more often than I'm comfortable with.
2/21/2012 11:45:41 PM
Originally Posted By turb06le240:
believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials...
believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials...
What planet do you live on???
2/22/2012 3:07:32 AM
Originally Posted By AnthonyL:
What planet do you live on???
Originally Posted By turb06le240:
believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials...
believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials...
What planet do you live on???
Yeah, I am a safe tech, and I do not agree with that statement at all. In the last 2 weeks, I have been on 3 service calls to replace faulty electronic lock units.
2/22/2012 2:36:09 PM
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Yeah, I am a safe tech, and I do not agree with that statement at all. In the last 2 weeks, I have been on 3 service calls to replace faulty electronic lock units.
Originally Posted By AnthonyL:
What planet do you live on???
Originally Posted By turb06le240:
believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials...
believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials...
What planet do you live on???
Yeah, I am a safe tech, and I do not agree with that statement at all. In the last 2 weeks, I have been on 3 service calls to replace faulty electronic lock units.
This statement was quickly dismissed. My combo lock is en route. I'm doing the work myself. Reconned my safe and I'm confident I can handle it. I'll provide an aar when done.
2/22/2012 4:28:53 PM
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
This statement was quickly dismissed. My combo lock is en route. I'm doing the work myself. Reconned my safe and I'm confident I can handle it. I'll provide an aar when done.
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Yeah, I am a safe tech, and I do not agree with that statement at all. In the last 2 weeks, I have been on 3 service calls to replace faulty electronic lock units.
Originally Posted By AnthonyL:
What planet do you live on???
Originally Posted By turb06le240:
believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials...
believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials...
What planet do you live on???
Yeah, I am a safe tech, and I do not agree with that statement at all. In the last 2 weeks, I have been on 3 service calls to replace faulty electronic lock units.
This statement was quickly dismissed. My combo lock is en route. I'm doing the work myself. Reconned my safe and I'm confident I can handle it. I'll provide an aar when done.
I've thought about this myself. My digital lock shit the bed a couple of months after I got my Canon Patriot.
2/24/2012 9:13:41 AM
Lock change AAR:
I received my new Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 lock yesterday. I removed my digital lock with ease. I began the installation of the new combo lock. Instructions are pretty clear. I had to tap two holes in the front of the safe for the 8-32 machine screws that hold the dial ring on. The holes were already drilled and just needed to be tapped. All in all the install was easy. Setting the combination, however, was a little more challenging. The instructions indicate a factory setting of 50 for the combo. Turn the dial 4 times left to 50 then right to 95 and it should unlock per the instructions. Uh, no-go there. Alternatively, left to 41 then right to 86 or 87 did not work either. No other 3 number combo was included. If it were to work as described you would then insert a provided key in the back of the lock to set a new combo. I took the back off and studied the lock. To use the key the three wheels need to have an alignment that allows the key to be inserted all the way. I manually lined them up and rotated them to align with the keyhole that is on the back cover of the lock. I put the cover back on and followed the instructions on how to set a new combo. It worked and I set my new combo with no problem. I tested it about 25 times before closing the safe. If the lock had the factory settings or a 3 number combo was provided it would have been a much faster install. I’d not hesitate to do it again. A challenge like I was presented is somewhat enjoyable on occasion.
I received my new Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 lock yesterday. I removed my digital lock with ease. I began the installation of the new combo lock. Instructions are pretty clear. I had to tap two holes in the front of the safe for the 8-32 machine screws that hold the dial ring on. The holes were already drilled and just needed to be tapped. All in all the install was easy. Setting the combination, however, was a little more challenging. The instructions indicate a factory setting of 50 for the combo. Turn the dial 4 times left to 50 then right to 95 and it should unlock per the instructions. Uh, no-go there. Alternatively, left to 41 then right to 86 or 87 did not work either. No other 3 number combo was included. If it were to work as described you would then insert a provided key in the back of the lock to set a new combo. I took the back off and studied the lock. To use the key the three wheels need to have an alignment that allows the key to be inserted all the way. I manually lined them up and rotated them to align with the keyhole that is on the back cover of the lock. I put the cover back on and followed the instructions on how to set a new combo. It worked and I set my new combo with no problem. I tested it about 25 times before closing the safe. If the lock had the factory settings or a 3 number combo was provided it would have been a much faster install. I’d not hesitate to do it again. A challenge like I was presented is somewhat enjoyable on occasion.
2/24/2012 10:41:25 AM
Did you seat the wheel packs after setting the combo?
You have to initially spin the dial hard left to right and shock it 5-6 times to set the packs. This is the only time you ever operate a lock in this manner.
When you operate dial locks, you dont flick them or spin them with a flick of the rest. You should turn the lock easily and re-position your hand on it for each turn to the desired number.
You have to initially spin the dial hard left to right and shock it 5-6 times to set the packs. This is the only time you ever operate a lock in this manner.
When you operate dial locks, you dont flick them or spin them with a flick of the rest. You should turn the lock easily and re-position your hand on it for each turn to the desired number.
2/24/2012 11:08:55 AM
TAG
2/24/2012 11:17:11 AM
Originally Posted By turb06le240:
Depends on what model safe, why are you changing, believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials... I priced doing a conversion on a sentry and it was only a little more to buy a new safe... Now if you have a high end safe {which most of them have dual entry mechs} than it may be worth it..
Depends on what model safe, why are you changing, believe it or not the digital mechs are more reliable than the dials... I priced doing a conversion on a sentry and it was only a little more to buy a new safe... Now if you have a high end safe {which most of them have dual entry mechs} than it may be worth it..
This isn't correct.
2/24/2012 11:40:31 AM
If you don't mind me asking, where did you source the S&G Lock?
2/24/2012 1:52:02 PM
Got it here. I actually found directions for the procedure I followed to set the combination online.
http://www.amazon.com/Sargent-Greenleaf-6730-100-Safe-Lock/dp/B002EDF466
http://www.amazon.com/Sargent-Greenleaf-6730-100-Safe-Lock/dp/B002EDF466
2/25/2012 3:14:18 AM
Oh man that is steep. I sell them for less than that, and it will be a top reader for a gun safe, not a front reader for a commercial safe.
Pm me if you need one.
Pm me if you need one.
2/25/2012 1:39:05 PM
Did you seat the wheel packs after setting the combo?
You have to initially spin the dial hard left to right and shock it 5-6 times to set the packs.
You have to initially spin the dial hard left to right and shock it 5-6 times to set the packs.
I have never heard of this. If the change key turns far enough to be removed from the lock, then the wheels are locked properly.
2/25/2012 2:14:11 PM
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Oh man that is steep. I sell them for less than that, and it will be a top reader for a gun safe, not a front reader for a commercial safe.
Pm me if you need one.
Oh man that is steep. I sell them for less than that, and it will be a top reader for a gun safe, not a front reader for a commercial safe.
Pm me if you need one.
The same Sargent and Greenleaf 6730?
2/25/2012 6:26:05 PM
6700 series locks, I have the black box 6730, or the gray box models as well. I also have front read or top read dials. Most gun safes use a top reader dial.
2/25/2012 6:27:16 PM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I have never heard of this. If the change key turns far enough to be removed from the lock, then the wheels are locked properly.
Did you seat the wheel packs after setting the combo?
You have to initially spin the dial hard left to right and shock it 5-6 times to set the packs.
You have to initially spin the dial hard left to right and shock it 5-6 times to set the packs.
I have never heard of this. If the change key turns far enough to be removed from the lock, then the wheels are locked properly.
The info came from Evan at Liberty. Then it was followed up by Keith the foreman at Graffunder as well.
2/25/2012 9:29:36 PM
The info came from Evan at Liberty. Then it was followed up by Keith the foreman at Graffunder as well.
I tend to not take technical advice from employees of safe manufacturers. It may surprise some to know that many of the people employed by these companies have little to no experience in the industry.
What does the lock manufacturer have to say about it? I would assume they would know more about their locks that the safe manufacturer that is installing them.
2/26/2012 4:04:26 AM
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Did you seat the wheel packs after setting the combo?
You have to initially spin the dial hard left to right and shock it 5-6 times to set the packs. This is the only time you ever operate a lock in this manner.
When you operate dial locks, you dont flick them or spin them with a flick of the rest. You should turn the lock easily and re-position your hand on it for each turn to the desired number.
Did you seat the wheel packs after setting the combo?
You have to initially spin the dial hard left to right and shock it 5-6 times to set the packs. This is the only time you ever operate a lock in this manner.
When you operate dial locks, you dont flick them or spin them with a flick of the rest. You should turn the lock easily and re-position your hand on it for each turn to the desired number.
I have never heard this before. Good to know as my new dial lock safe is on the way! Always assumed most of these dial locks were pretty heavy duty and could take a beating. The way you explain it, it almost sounds as if they are fragile/temperamental. Can you damage a lock by being quick ( ie - "flicking or spinning" them) and less deliberate with it?
2/26/2012 8:05:46 AM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I tend to not take technical advice from employees of safe manufacturers. It may surprise some to know that many of the people employed by these companies have little to no experience in the industry.
What does the lock manufacturer have to say about it? I would assume they would know more about their locks that the safe manufacturer that is installing them.
The info came from Evan at Liberty. Then it was followed up by Keith the foreman at Graffunder as well.
I tend to not take technical advice from employees of safe manufacturers. It may surprise some to know that many of the people employed by these companies have little to no experience in the industry.
What does the lock manufacturer have to say about it? I would assume they would know more about their locks that the safe manufacturer that is installing them.
The instructions for the S&G never mention anything like that. This lock design is older than any tech alive today, I'm quite sure.
2/26/2012 9:57:55 AM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I tend to not take technical advice from employees of safe manufacturers. It may surprise some to know that many of the people employed by these companies have little to no experience in the industry.
What does the lock manufacturer have to say about it? I would assume they would know more about their locks that the safe manufacturer that is installing them.
The info came from Evan at Liberty. Then it was followed up by Keith the foreman at Graffunder as well.
I tend to not take technical advice from employees of safe manufacturers. It may surprise some to know that many of the people employed by these companies have little to no experience in the industry.
What does the lock manufacturer have to say about it? I would assume they would know more about their locks that the safe manufacturer that is installing them.
You are funny. Evan is the Technical Service Head at Liberty. Keith is the Shop Foreman at Graffunder. The amount of locks they work with would make both you and I look like "just employees". Funny guy you.
2/26/2012 10:58:26 AM
ou are funny. Evan is the Technical Service Head at Liberty. Keith is the Shop Foreman at Graffunder. The amount of locks they work with would make both you and I look like "just employees". Funny guy you.
I suppose I'm going to get really hilarious here then. If that is what they told you, they are dead wrong. You reapeating it is also wrong. It makes all three of you look as if you have no idea what you're doing, which may not really be that far from the truth (assuming that they really did tell you that).
You mention that a gun safe manufacturer knows so much about safes, that it makes me look like an employee. I've already given you my credentials. You always avoid telling us yours. I guess an employee at a manufacturer may know more about installing locks than I do, since that's what they do all day long. I doubt they do nearly as much trouble shooting, or drilling as I do. Liberty sells safes, locked shut at their own factory, to another tech I know. He has a whole collection of Dewalt tools that he has found inside of them. If they know so much, why are they locking themselves out of them?
It's funny that you mention Liberty specifically as a source of technical data. Once upon a time I had a question regarding how they had their ball bearing plate mounted in their Presidential line. I had to drill one open, and knowing that the plates were all mass produced, wanted to know if I could adjust my drill point to hit the intersection of four balls instead of one dead on. They said they would fax over the information I needed. When it arrived, it was a page ouf of a book written by a guy that hangs out on another forum with me. In other words, they were essentially saying that a safe tech who wrote a book knew more about their safes that they did.
So far you have mentioned aligning the dial ring (true), and "setting the wheel pack" (false), as being important steps. In my opinion, there are three important steps, and you're missing the other two that are true. Care to take a stab at it, or if you would rather, we can wait until Monday when Liberty's customer service is open (not that they would know).
I'd be happy to mention it here, but I would rather you respond first. That way, everytime you repeat it here on the forum in order to sound like an expert, I can point back to this thread as the source of your expanded knowledge base. If we are going to be giving out advice to people here on the forum, and holding ourselves out as experts, we should really be giving expert advice. Let's be careful not to spread rumors. It's one thing not to know, or another to be incorrect. It's totally different to spread falsehoods when the truth is easy enough to find out on your own.
2/27/2012 12:54:05 PM
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I suppose I'm going to get really hilarious here then. If that is what they told you, they are dead wrong. You reapeating it is also wrong. It makes all three of you look as if you have no idea what you're doing, which may not really be that far from the truth (assuming that they really did tell you that).
You mention that a gun safe manufacturer knows so much about safes, that it makes me look like an employee. I've already given you my credentials. You always avoid telling us yours. I guess an employee at a manufacturer may know more about installing locks than I do, since that's what they do all day long. I doubt they do nearly as much trouble shooting, or drilling as I do. Liberty sells safes, locked shut at their own factory, to another tech I know. He has a whole collection of Dewalt tools that he has found inside of them. If they know so much, why are they locking themselves out of them?
It's funny that you mention Liberty specifically as a source of technical data. Once upon a time I had a question regarding how they had their ball bearing plate mounted in their Presidential line. I had to drill one open, and knowing that the plates were all mass produced, wanted to know if I could adjust my drill point to hit the intersection of four balls instead of one dead on. They said they would fax over the information I needed. When it arrived, it was a page ouf of a book written by a guy that hangs out on another forum with me. In other words, they were essentially saying that a safe tech who wrote a book knew more about their safes that they did.
So far you have mentioned aligning the dial ring (true), and "setting the wheel pack" (false), as being important steps. In my opinion, there are three important steps, and you're missing the other two that are true. Care to take a stab at it, or if you would rather, we can wait until Monday when Liberty's customer service is open (not that they would know).
I'd be happy to mention it here, but I would rather you respond first. That way, everytime you repeat it here on the forum in order to sound like an expert, I can point back to this thread as the source of your expanded knowledge base. If we are going to be giving out advice to people here on the forum, and holding ourselves out as experts, we should really be giving expert advice. Let's be careful not to spread rumors. It's one thing not to know, or another to be incorrect. It's totally different to spread falsehoods when the truth is easy enough to find out on your own. I am not playing games with you.
ou are funny. Evan is the Technical Service Head at Liberty. Keith is the Shop Foreman at Graffunder. The amount of locks they work with would make both you and I look like "just employees". Funny guy you.
I suppose I'm going to get really hilarious here then. If that is what they told you, they are dead wrong. You reapeating it is also wrong. It makes all three of you look as if you have no idea what you're doing, which may not really be that far from the truth (assuming that they really did tell you that).
You mention that a gun safe manufacturer knows so much about safes, that it makes me look like an employee. I've already given you my credentials. You always avoid telling us yours. I guess an employee at a manufacturer may know more about installing locks than I do, since that's what they do all day long. I doubt they do nearly as much trouble shooting, or drilling as I do. Liberty sells safes, locked shut at their own factory, to another tech I know. He has a whole collection of Dewalt tools that he has found inside of them. If they know so much, why are they locking themselves out of them?
It's funny that you mention Liberty specifically as a source of technical data. Once upon a time I had a question regarding how they had their ball bearing plate mounted in their Presidential line. I had to drill one open, and knowing that the plates were all mass produced, wanted to know if I could adjust my drill point to hit the intersection of four balls instead of one dead on. They said they would fax over the information I needed. When it arrived, it was a page ouf of a book written by a guy that hangs out on another forum with me. In other words, they were essentially saying that a safe tech who wrote a book knew more about their safes that they did.
So far you have mentioned aligning the dial ring (true), and "setting the wheel pack" (false), as being important steps. In my opinion, there are three important steps, and you're missing the other two that are true. Care to take a stab at it, or if you would rather, we can wait until Monday when Liberty's customer service is open (not that they would know).
I'd be happy to mention it here, but I would rather you respond first. That way, everytime you repeat it here on the forum in order to sound like an expert, I can point back to this thread as the source of your expanded knowledge base. If we are going to be giving out advice to people here on the forum, and holding ourselves out as experts, we should really be giving expert advice. Let's be careful not to spread rumors. It's one thing not to know, or another to be incorrect. It's totally different to spread falsehoods when the truth is easy enough to find out on your own. I am not playing games with you.
As I told you in several PM's I am not even going to give you the time of day and address this because it is not worth it. You more interested in your own opinion, confrontation, and what you think than anything else. That is why I have been missing from this forum. It is not even worth my time to argue with you about this, becasue absolutely nothing at all will come of it. I am not playing games with you , like you try to play with everyone else.
2/27/2012 1:24:42 PM
As I told you in several PM's I am not even going to give you the time of day and address this because it is not worth it.
I'm not confronting you for the sake of confrontation. I'm confronting you because you are holding yourself out as an expert, and I have some serious doubts. This may cause people reading your advice to suffer a loss.
This seems to be par for the course for you though. You know just enough technical jargon for the average person to believe what you say. However, when somebody who works in the field calls you out on your BS, you run off using the excuse that "I'm above the fray".
I say put up or shut up. Either prove you're the pro you say you are, or refrain from holding yourself out as something you're not. I'll have no problem watching everything you say like a hawk from now on, and calling you out when you slip, just like in this very thread.
I'll state it again: Your advice in this thread is flat wrong, and the fact that you consult with a gun safe manufacturer for your lock knowledge, probably says that you're not the tech you claim you are.
2/27/2012 2:39:50 PM
Gentlemen? Call-out threads are against the CoC. Let's keep this factual and professional.
Don't make me take off my belt.
Don't make me take off my belt.
2/27/2012 3:54:17 PM
I guess you will never know who I am then.
All I have to say is this. There are plenty of company's that put out a product, that other companies, and end users figure out a way to improve on it, make it work better, or fix issues with it.
Carol Shelby made the mustang better. He also made the ford engine make more power, and run more efficiently.
Several aftermarket companies made the AR15 better.
The 1911 has been improved upon, even though on it's debut it was a work of art already.
I am not concerned about the abilities of the Tech guys at Liberty, I am not concerned with the abilities of the Foreman at Graffunder. I am not concerned with my abilities either. I have had 1 hour sitdowns with factory S&G field technicians at the shot show (got to ask them anything I wanted, and I took full advantage of the gentlemens time and expertise). I know Mr. Francine as well. He is the perfect example of someone who can take one thing, and figure out a way to defeat it, use it better, or use it differently than what the manufacturer ever called for or could have imagined.
After all, what do those guys at Liberty know, they only make 320 safes a day in that factory. Those Graffunder guys must be sketchy as well, cause they only make one of the finest and most secure gun safes on the market. Your gonna pick some things up along the way working with safes that much. I am open to anyones ideas, not just the manufacturer of a product.
I am fine not having your approval, life will go on and all will still be the same.
All I have to say is this. There are plenty of company's that put out a product, that other companies, and end users figure out a way to improve on it, make it work better, or fix issues with it.
Carol Shelby made the mustang better. He also made the ford engine make more power, and run more efficiently.
Several aftermarket companies made the AR15 better.
The 1911 has been improved upon, even though on it's debut it was a work of art already.
I am not concerned about the abilities of the Tech guys at Liberty, I am not concerned with the abilities of the Foreman at Graffunder. I am not concerned with my abilities either. I have had 1 hour sitdowns with factory S&G field technicians at the shot show (got to ask them anything I wanted, and I took full advantage of the gentlemens time and expertise). I know Mr. Francine as well. He is the perfect example of someone who can take one thing, and figure out a way to defeat it, use it better, or use it differently than what the manufacturer ever called for or could have imagined.
After all, what do those guys at Liberty know, they only make 320 safes a day in that factory. Those Graffunder guys must be sketchy as well, cause they only make one of the finest and most secure gun safes on the market. Your gonna pick some things up along the way working with safes that much. I am open to anyones ideas, not just the manufacturer of a product.
I am fine not having your approval, life will go on and all will still be the same.
