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Does a Gunsmith need to be an FFL
2/18/2012 2:47:38 PM
if i were to ship a firearm to a Gunsmith, would they have to be FFL?
2/18/2012 2:49:04 PM
Yup. Unless you've got a genuine antique there, ie, built before 1899.
Gig 'em,
backbencher
Gig 'em,
backbencher
2/18/2012 2:58:11 PM
According to Big Brother, if you hire some one to wrap camo tape around your gun, they have to have an FFL.
This might be waived if your customer is a drug lord, however.
This might be waived if your customer is a drug lord, however.
2/18/2012 7:21:39 PM
Yes.
If you are collecting cash for working on guns,you must have a license.
If you are collecting cash for working on guns,you must have a license.
2/20/2012 10:42:07 PM
Originally Posted By remixer69:
if i were to ship a firearm to a Gunsmith, would they have to be FFL?
if i were to ship a firearm to a Gunsmith, would they have to be FFL?
Can't help on NJ law, but no if gunsmith is in-state. Now, gunsmith may have his own problems with ATF if he is in business without FFL.
2/23/2012 3:36:13 PM
Seems I've read recently that if a smith keeps a weapon overnight a 4473 must be filled out when the firearm is picked up.
I can think of several occasions when I didn't have to do this, so I don't know if it's correct. But if it is an FFL would be required.
I can think of several occasions when I didn't have to do this, so I don't know if it's correct. But if it is an FFL would be required.
2/23/2012 4:33:00 PM
I refer you to ATF Rule 73-13
I can't cut and past it from this computer but you don't have to do a 4473.
I can't cut and past it from this computer but you don't have to do a 4473.
2/23/2012 5:16:53 PM
If it spends the night somewhere has to have a 4473 or be na FFL.
2/23/2012 5:21:16 PM
nope...just has to be logged into the A&D book.....this is per my ATF agent and the book. I wish I could copy and past with this computer.
2/23/2012 9:27:30 PM
As long as the person who shipped or dropped the firearm of for work or repair is the one to receive the firearm back, no 4473 is required. Kind of like when you ship a gun to get engraved at Orion or Ident, it gets sent directly back to you without any 4473 being completed. Only time 4473 is necessary is if it is a different person it is being returned to. Such as a wife picking up hubbys gun. HTH
2/24/2012 6:19:18 AM
Originally Posted By PR361:
Yes.
If you are collecting cash for working on guns,you must have a license.
Yes.
If you are collecting cash for working on guns,you must have a license.
Is this true regardless of volume?
I mean if I charge friends and relatives 20 bucks to mount a scope a couple times a year, so technically -speaking, I need a license?
Does it vary by State?
2/24/2012 6:30:02 AM
Originally Posted By jforbush:
I refer you to ATF Rule 73-13
I can't cut and past it from this computer but you don't have to do a 4473.
I refer you to ATF Rule 73-13
I can't cut and past it from this computer but you don't have to do a 4473.
ATF Rul. 73-13
Because of the nature of operations conducted by a gunsmith, any
applicant for a license who intends to
engage solely in this type of business
and so specifies on his application will
not be required to maintain regular
business hours. Further, if the business is conducted from a private
dwelling, a separate portion should be
designated as the business premises,
which need not be open to all segments of the public but only accessible to the clientele that the business is
set up to serve. However, the licensed premises of the gunsmith are
subject to the inspection requirements
of 18 U.S.C. 923(g) and 27 CFR
178.23, and the gunsmith must maintain the required records as specified
in 27 CFR 178.121 et seq.
Further, since a gunsmith is a licensed firearms dealer, if he engages
in the business of buying and selling
firearms, he must record his transactions on Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record) for each sale, and
maintain the firearms acquisition and
disposition records required of all
licensed dealers. However, if a gunsmith engages in the business of
buying and selling firearms during the
term of his current license, he may be
required to submit a new Form 7
(Firearms) at the time of renewal in
accordance with 27 CFR 178.45 and
meet the requirements of an applicant
engaging in the business of buying
and selling firearms, such as having
business premises open to the general public and having regular business hours.
Because of the nature of operations conducted by a gunsmith, any
applicant for a license who intends to
engage solely in this type of business
and so specifies on his application will
not be required to maintain regular
business hours. Further, if the business is conducted from a private
dwelling, a separate portion should be
designated as the business premises,
which need not be open to all segments of the public but only accessible to the clientele that the business is
set up to serve. However, the licensed premises of the gunsmith are
subject to the inspection requirements
of 18 U.S.C. 923(g) and 27 CFR
178.23, and the gunsmith must maintain the required records as specified
in 27 CFR 178.121 et seq.
Further, since a gunsmith is a licensed firearms dealer, if he engages
in the business of buying and selling
firearms, he must record his transactions on Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record) for each sale, and
maintain the firearms acquisition and
disposition records required of all
licensed dealers. However, if a gunsmith engages in the business of
buying and selling firearms during the
term of his current license, he may be
required to submit a new Form 7
(Firearms) at the time of renewal in
accordance with 27 CFR 178.45 and
meet the requirements of an applicant
engaging in the business of buying
and selling firearms, such as having
business premises open to the general public and having regular business hours.
2/24/2012 8:22:34 AM
There it is...thanks!! :)
2/24/2012 9:49:51 AM
Originally Posted By KRONIIK:
Is this true regardless of volume?
I mean if I charge friends and relatives 20 bucks to mount a scope a couple times a year, so technically -speaking, I need a license?
Does it vary by State?
Originally Posted By PR361:
Yes.
If you are collecting cash for working on guns,you must have a license.
Yes.
If you are collecting cash for working on guns,you must have a license.
Is this true regardless of volume?
I mean if I charge friends and relatives 20 bucks to mount a scope a couple times a year, so technically -speaking, I need a license?
Does it vary by State?
It's a gray area.
(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?
Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.
[27 CFR 478.11]
The way I read it, you can make repairs on a friends gun and charge him a few bucks without a license, but if you make it a regular practice to supplement your income as a business, you need a license.
But I have no legal expertise.
I certainly wouldn't advertise, even by word of mouth, or make a regular practice of charging people for gun work without a license. Too much to lose with the ATF.
You guys could try reading the tacked tread at the top of the page with ATF frequently asked questions and links to the laws.....
2/24/2012 10:36:43 AM
Originally Posted By KRONIIK:
Is this true regardless of volume?
I mean if I charge friends and relatives 20 bucks to mount a scope a couple times a year, so technically -speaking, I need a license?
Does it vary by State?
Originally Posted By PR361:
Yes.
If you are collecting cash for working on guns,you must have a license.
Yes.
If you are collecting cash for working on guns,you must have a license.
Is this true regardless of volume?
I mean if I charge friends and relatives 20 bucks to mount a scope a couple times a year, so technically -speaking, I need a license?
Does it vary by State?
Doubtful that is gunsmithing, but you know the ATF. My issue is I would do it for free and get more "business" than I could handle.
2/27/2012 5:04:22 AM
Here's my interpretation. It's arguable without doubt but has been my practice.
I stored weapons for my son and members of his unit. The guns had no place to go and needed to be looked after. Also a few of the guns needed work which I was all too glad to do, for free if parts, materials, shipping and related expenses were paid for. Bigger jobs I collected parts money from up front, smaller jobs were reimbursed after guns were shipped back after unit was stateside. Again, I didn't charge labor or storage. All done as favors for the unit.
Relatives, friends come to me or I go to them. These jobs have been local. I don't want anything in house overnight except what's mine or being stored for safe keeping for my son's friends deployed over seas.
At present I have one left in house not mine. That gun is cursed, should have left 2 months ago but it's cursed. It smoked a new (Chinese cheap) 1/2" ball end mill last week while making the last pass on muzzle, just above dust cover. New end mill gets here next week. When that cut is made it gets moved to finish bench, then shipped. It will be beauutiful and a blessing when gone.
I'd rather work at a friends house than mine just because. If a gun isn't removed from owners property then I've never taken possession of gun. Afterwards I might get a few bucks in return for the favor of fixing a friends gun.
Have sold some custom guns that were built by me, for me and shot a bunch by me making them used personal guns. As such, legal without FFL. My goal was to do 2 or 3 a year. shoot the piss out of each one, enjoy it until something else met my fancy then sell off to fund next project.
Fixing guns on a bench top at local range should be ok too. What I avoid is taking a gun in overnight with intent of fixing for money. That's a grey area even though my source of income comes outside of anything ATF and my actual smithing income falls below 2k yearly. I gave away, way more time than charged for.
However demand is exceeding my comfort level to continue without FFL.
To answer your question, no you don't need an FFL to do a job here and there. When you start doing it with regularity within your network of friends and relatives is when you should consider an FFL. Most certainly if doing anything for someone you don't know. I'll hold off on general public work for as long as I possibly can with an FFL.
Something else to consider, not long after the need for FFL, insurance should follow afterwards PDQ, Pronto. Last I priced insurance was going to run $150.00 a month. If doing ground up projects then ITAR registration is the next goblin to visit.
I stored weapons for my son and members of his unit. The guns had no place to go and needed to be looked after. Also a few of the guns needed work which I was all too glad to do, for free if parts, materials, shipping and related expenses were paid for. Bigger jobs I collected parts money from up front, smaller jobs were reimbursed after guns were shipped back after unit was stateside. Again, I didn't charge labor or storage. All done as favors for the unit.
Relatives, friends come to me or I go to them. These jobs have been local. I don't want anything in house overnight except what's mine or being stored for safe keeping for my son's friends deployed over seas.
At present I have one left in house not mine. That gun is cursed, should have left 2 months ago but it's cursed. It smoked a new (Chinese cheap) 1/2" ball end mill last week while making the last pass on muzzle, just above dust cover. New end mill gets here next week. When that cut is made it gets moved to finish bench, then shipped. It will be beauutiful and a blessing when gone.
I'd rather work at a friends house than mine just because. If a gun isn't removed from owners property then I've never taken possession of gun. Afterwards I might get a few bucks in return for the favor of fixing a friends gun.
Have sold some custom guns that were built by me, for me and shot a bunch by me making them used personal guns. As such, legal without FFL. My goal was to do 2 or 3 a year. shoot the piss out of each one, enjoy it until something else met my fancy then sell off to fund next project.
Fixing guns on a bench top at local range should be ok too. What I avoid is taking a gun in overnight with intent of fixing for money. That's a grey area even though my source of income comes outside of anything ATF and my actual smithing income falls below 2k yearly. I gave away, way more time than charged for.
However demand is exceeding my comfort level to continue without FFL.
To answer your question, no you don't need an FFL to do a job here and there. When you start doing it with regularity within your network of friends and relatives is when you should consider an FFL. Most certainly if doing anything for someone you don't know. I'll hold off on general public work for as long as I possibly can with an FFL.
Something else to consider, not long after the need for FFL, insurance should follow afterwards PDQ, Pronto. Last I priced insurance was going to run $150.00 a month. If doing ground up projects then ITAR registration is the next goblin to visit.
2/28/2012 2:22:00 PM
When I do stuff for friends they bring it to the shop, we work on it, he takes it home.
Nothing is ever left overnight, I never charge
Nothing is ever left overnight, I never charge
2/29/2012 4:13:40 AM
Ok - this is rather long-winded, but bear with me...
For owners - The beauty of the AR15 as a smithable weapon is that virtually every part that may need to be smithed can be easily removed - through at it's worst - the use of simple, common hand tools - from the one part that is regulated by law as the "firearm" (the serial numbered lower receiver), & that once so removed, everything except the lower receiver itself CAN (not withstanding the shipping of banned parts to ban states) be shipped virtually anywhere in the continental US to be worked on by nearly anyone possessing of the proper tools, time, & skill-set, ...regardless of license.
Now, that being said... Just because you "can" do something, does not necessarily make it a good idea to "do" it...
It is the responsibility of both the owner & the gunsmith respectively to know (& abide by) the applicable laws as they pertain to the use, possession, transport, storage, shipping, maintenance &/or repair of the weapon or weapon-part in question.
For non-licensed gunsmiths - Know that there are a number of things that have both the potential & probability to get you into some seriously hot water (ie: fines, jail-time/prison, loss of civil-rights, ect.) be it either federally or - as applicable - through various state or local laws/ordinances. Some general guidelines for non-licensed gunsmiths to follow that would do well for them to avoid such troubles would be:
1. Do not perform any action which may be successfully construed in a court of law as either "constructive-possession of", "intent / attempt to manufacture", or "manufacturing of" an NFA-regulated weapon or device (or depending on the particular state - an "assault-weapon", "semi-automatic assault-weapon", or "high-capacity ammunition feeding device") without a license or permit.
2. Do not perform any action which may be successfully construed in a court of law as "manufacturing a firearm" for sale/transfer without a license/permit.
&
3. Do not perform any action which may be successfully construed in a court of law as "gun-smithing" when as a SOLE, PRIMARY, or REGULAR means of trade, business, profit, or livelihood - without a license/permit... The key-word being "regular", as "occasional" activities of such nature have been deemed to be permissible - at least by the ATFE, though YMMV, as there may still be state or local laws or ordinances which apply in this regards...
Hope this helps,
FlDiveCop71
For owners - The beauty of the AR15 as a smithable weapon is that virtually every part that may need to be smithed can be easily removed - through at it's worst - the use of simple, common hand tools - from the one part that is regulated by law as the "firearm" (the serial numbered lower receiver), & that once so removed, everything except the lower receiver itself CAN (not withstanding the shipping of banned parts to ban states) be shipped virtually anywhere in the continental US to be worked on by nearly anyone possessing of the proper tools, time, & skill-set, ...regardless of license.
Now, that being said... Just because you "can" do something, does not necessarily make it a good idea to "do" it...
It is the responsibility of both the owner & the gunsmith respectively to know (& abide by) the applicable laws as they pertain to the use, possession, transport, storage, shipping, maintenance &/or repair of the weapon or weapon-part in question.
For non-licensed gunsmiths - Know that there are a number of things that have both the potential & probability to get you into some seriously hot water (ie: fines, jail-time/prison, loss of civil-rights, ect.) be it either federally or - as applicable - through various state or local laws/ordinances. Some general guidelines for non-licensed gunsmiths to follow that would do well for them to avoid such troubles would be:
1. Do not perform any action which may be successfully construed in a court of law as either "constructive-possession of", "intent / attempt to manufacture", or "manufacturing of" an NFA-regulated weapon or device (or depending on the particular state - an "assault-weapon", "semi-automatic assault-weapon", or "high-capacity ammunition feeding device") without a license or permit.
2. Do not perform any action which may be successfully construed in a court of law as "manufacturing a firearm" for sale/transfer without a license/permit.
&
3. Do not perform any action which may be successfully construed in a court of law as "gun-smithing" when as a SOLE, PRIMARY, or REGULAR means of trade, business, profit, or livelihood - without a license/permit... The key-word being "regular", as "occasional" activities of such nature have been deemed to be permissible - at least by the ATFE, though YMMV, as there may still be state or local laws or ordinances which apply in this regards...
Hope this helps,
FlDiveCop71
