Changing the date on Schedule A

I'm updating my Schedule A and adding my suppressor. The original date on the Schedule A is May 26th when I set up the trust. I'm adding my suppressor today so should I, 1: Use today's date on the Schedule A even though the notarized date on the trust is from May???? Or: 2 Should I just use the original date of May 26th to match the rest of the trust???

My theory is use the current date since this is the day I added/amended my Schedule A. Its a dumb question and I posted this in another section which got off topic. I just want to make sure since you never know what the ATF wants.

TAG, I've been wondering this too. Also change of address of the trust aka move- do I need to resubmit for new stamps? I think not but not sure of which legal wickett to jump through

I just called ATF and spoke with the front desk who wasn't sure so she connected me with a gentleman named Scott. He told me to continue to use the original date that the trust was setup on my Schedule A since that was the day it was created/notarized.

I hope this helps anyone else.

For what it's worth, I would disagree. It could be argued that you're effectively backdating ownership of the listed items to a time where you didn't actually own them and maybe legally couldn't.

I don't date my schedules at all. If it's simply a list of assets, it doesn't do anything, it's just a place to neatly list the assets held by the trust. It's the actual transfer documents (approved ATF forms, real estate transfer deeds, etc.) that convey those items to the trust.

What I do date is an assignment of property that I complete when each transfer is approved, with the date it was approved, or in the case of my SBR, I assigned it to the trust prior to the transfer since I personally possessed it and the transfer was legal since it hadn't technically been "manufactured" into an SBR.

IMHO I agree with you 100% that is why I asked the question but with the so much grey area in the ATF I just went with what they said.

In the future, absolutely, positively do not ask or rely on ATF for advice like this on how to manage your trust. It's not their department and they have no reliable knowledge about trust management. It's like asking the DMV about your homeowners policy.

Legally speaking, the Schedule A is used to list property in the Trust at the time of execution only. All items on the schedule A ride the notary date as evidence of trust property. Assignment of Property forms are used to add items later.

Lol, I didn't think about that at the time but your right. Thanks.

what about notarizing the assignment? or just a witness?

I think this is backwards, Schedule A is for items the trust owns, as forms get approved, they are transferred into the trust. Assignment of Property may be for items you as an individual put into the trust.

I dunno, ATF seems pretty insistent they should be on the schedule A and that is pretty much what matters.

That's just not what a Schedule A is for. Consult an attorney if you need further explanation. You fund the trust on the schedule A, funding can be as simple as $1 or the entire contents of your home. But either way, you do not add to the schedule since it is a supportive document to the notarized execution, meaning that's what the trust was born with.

A paradox is potentially created when you follow NFA Branch's request, if they request it: You add it to the Schedule A, implying it was already in the Trust before you actually submitted the application. Separately, adding the item to the Trust before approval creates another potential issue which occurs if NFA Branch denies the application for any reason. In either scenario, the Trustee will not be able to reconcile the assets due to the inaccurate documentation.

ETA: The Form 1 or Form 4 does not confirm that the specific firearm is currently trust property. It's merely a receipt that the Trust made or transferred in a firearm on that date. It would also confirm the legality of the firearm. But you'd still need to account for it from the Trust side.

not concerned about timing but ultimately were you document it. So the schedule A would never change during the lifetime of the trust?

Assignment of property calls out the grantor to "hereby assign and transfer all of my rights, title and interest in the following property", however the Grantor never technically owns the items, the trust does.

If a trust bought real estate, would they put it assignment of property and never list it in the schedule A?

Schedule A is subtitled "Property Placed in Trust", this would seem to be the current status at any given time.

Schedule "A" is not notorized.....only signed. at least my Texas trust is set up that way. schedule A changes as items are added....???????

Unless your trust is very poorly written, a Sch A is a Schedule of Assets at the time the trust is drafted, it is not intended to be a rolling list of all items in the trust. This is a very common misconception in the NFA world. I do not have my clients notarize their Sch A. Texas does not require it.

well if so, where should you note changes to the property held by the trust? Nolo / Quicken reference the schedules: Nolo Link

Adding or Deleting Property
If you acquire valuable items of property after you create your living trust, you should promptly add them to the trust. You might also want to remove some items.

There are four steps to take:

Step 1: Use Nolo's Online Legal Forms to create a revised Property Schedule A, B or C of your trust document, adding new items or deleting old ones. If you made an individual trust, you have only one schedule, Schedule A. If you made a shared trust, Schedule A lists your co-owned property, and Schedules B and C list separate property.

Step 2: Print out the new schedule, sign it and replace the old one on your signed original trust document.

Step 3: If you added property, transfer ownership of the property to yourself as trustee. You'll need to change the property's title document or, if the item doesn't have a title document, use the Assignment of Property form, showing that you are holding the item in trust. (See Transferring Property to the Trust.) If you removed an item, transfer it out of the trust, either by changing its title document (a deed, for example) or using an Assignment of Property that transfers it from you as trustee to you as individual.

Step 4: If you need to name a beneficiary for property you've added, create an amended trust document (as discussed below). You won't need to amend your trust document if you left all your trust property to one person or if you want the new property to go to the residuary beneficiary.

EXAMPLE: Rose and her husband Michael created a trust several years ago. Now they're buying a house and take title as "Rose Morris and Michael Morris, Trustees of the Rose Morris and Michael Morris Revocable Living Trust dated January 13, 20xx." They then prepare a revised Schedule A (which lists co-owned property) of their trust document, print it out, sign it and replace the old Schedule A.

Because their trust document leaves all their property to each other, they do not need to amend their trust document

you wrote mine.....so you tell me.....LOL

How do I add items to be held by the trust???

The Nolo/Quicken notes make sense to me. I've not added property to a trust using their software but it seems like new items should be added to Schedule A (number them to be consistent with the software's format) followed by new Grantor and Trustee signature lines and dates. Schedule A becomes a log-like record containing a list of property in the trust and the dates the items were added.

An "Assignment of Property" document is only used when the change of ownership of the property cannot be documented using some other legal document (title, deed, etc.) I'm not a lawyer but, based on the Nolo/Quicken information, I'd say items should be added to the Schedule A, with new (additional) signatures and dates added to document to reflect the dates on which property is added to the trust. An "Assignment of Property" form should also be completed to document the transfer of ownership of "NFA-type" items. Other actions may fly too, but I'm comfortable with actions that are consistent with both the Nolo/Quicken instructions AND what the BATFE says!

-Cal

Just keep a simple list. Something like this:

Inventory of Trust Assets

1. Colt M16 machine gun serial number 123456
2. AAC Ranger 2 silencer serial number 56789

And just add and delete items from it.

hmmmmm.....ok, thanks for the clarification!

I'm no lawyer, But a Schedule A is a list of Property held in the trust No???? That is always subject to change...

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6002585_definition-revocable-trust-schedule.html

Amending Schedule A

• One benefit to having a Schedule A listing your assets, as opposed to listing them in the trust document, is the ease in amending Schedule A when your assets change. Simply prepare a new schedule, detach the old one from the trust document, and attach the amended schedule.
  

  
  

Can be setup different ways.

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2011/06/schedule-a-or-assignment-sheet.html

Yep. I set mine up so that the Sch A is only a list of items in the trust at the time it is formed only. It is not a rolling list of items owned by the trust.

As an aside, I not sure ehow.com is the best place to get legal advice.

how does the "Inventory of Trust Assets " become part of or owned by the trust if the Inventory is not referred to in the trust itself?

Why have a separate inventory list vs. a schedule A?

I am not a lawyer nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn, however from everything I can gather, Schedule A is property placed in trust and is meant to be updated as property is added or removed.

Legally from the trust perspective, all you have to do is identify the item as to belonging to the trust. If you wanted to, you could say all NFA items located at my residence and then write the address.

However, ATF is pretty clear they want to see the NFA items broken out in detail including serial number.

But for title I firearms, I doubt they care, you could say all guns in this safe located here. Done.

However, if your beneficiaries for whatever reason doubt the honesty of the successor trustee, they will have little ability to question whether all the property of the trust was properly given to the beneficiaries.

Assignment of Property, basically this is transfer ownership from the grantor to the trust of any item, account, real estate, etc that does not have an explicit document detailing who owns the item. For NFA items, I believe the Form 1 & 4 can serve as a title document showing the trust owns the item so it does not need to be detailed here.

A title I firearm however has no such title document so you could put them here. And if you wanted, you could just say all these guns at this location.

However, if you share a residence with other people, if you dont detail the items with a serial number, they could claim its theirs and not part of the trust.

Where did you get this? I have never heard this. I have sent in dozens of Form 4's and not included info on other NFA items owned by the trust....not one kick back.

How do you keep track of what the trust owns in your state? Do you have 1 Sch A that never gets updated from the time it was established and then have many assignment of property documents together with the trust?

When I remove a item from my Assignment of property sheet, That Item is automatically removed from our Schedule A. Our Schedule A has no place for signatures or dates.



On the Assignment of property sheet
I have the problem with the dates, the top date was when the Trust was formed. Is the bottom date when changes of items occurred.

You just have a separate document called an inventory of trust assets (or some such) where you add and delete items. No need to send this doc to the ATF.

the light just turned on!!!!...........we lay people are making this way to hard.....

this "list" is backed up by the Form 1's and 4's which name the trust as owner and have the STAMP! The list is simply that......a list or inventory.....

thanks Chris!

So when you send in your trust, do you send in a New Schedule A with each item. So, in theory you may have 7 Schedules A's. Each one having only the 1 item on each that you were seeking approval on at that time? Or do you even send in a schedule A when you do it?

Not criticizing, I'm actually trying to learn how I want to do mine when I set it up.

No, your Sch A never changes. And that is what you send in. You just have a separate inventory sheet where you need a list of items. You don't send that in.

If you take property out of the trust, you will also need to make some changes to your trust document:



Modify the property schedule of your trust document to reflect the change. If you don't, the schedule will still show that the property is owned by the trust, and the discrepancy could be confusing to the people who carry out your wishes after your death.

If the property doesn't have a title document, create and print out an Assignment of Property form, showing that you've transferred the item back to you as an individual.

If you named a specific beneficiary to receive the item, delete that trust provision, using a trust amendment.


Amending Your Trust Document, below, shows how to make these changes using Quicken WillMaker Plus.



EXAMPLE: Wendy and Brian made a basic living trust several years ago. Wendy transferred a valuable antique dresser, which she inherited from her father before she was married, to the living trust. It's listed on Schedule B of the trust document as her separate property. The trust document provides that the dresser will go to her son at her death. But she's changed her mind and wants her daughter to have the dresser right now.

After Wendy gives the dresser to her daughter, she uses Quicken WillMaker Plus to prepare and print out three documents. First, she prepares a new Schedule B, deleting the dresser from the list of property, and replaces the old Schedule B attached to the trust document. Second, she prepares an Assignment of Property, showing that she's transferred the dresser from herself as trustee to herself.

Third, she prepares an amended trust document, omitting the paragraph that left the dresser to her son. After she signs the amendment in front of a notary public, her trust document reflects her wishes.

well here in Phoenix, AZ, I have dealt with 3 dealers. 2 of which have been doing it forever. 3rd is relatively new but high volume.

All of them say an inventory list needs to be sent to the ATF. One says the item to be approved should always be on it, one says he has seen them kicked back because it wasn't on there and the third says add it after its approved. The first one will go so far as to write in the model/number information using a pen.

Your dealer is wrong.

I have been sending trusts in with the initial sched a and not once as the ATF asked for the inventory list.

Just the schedule a.

IIRC the item your applying for should never be added to Schedula A and sent because it has not been approved yet and is not the property of the trust until approval.

This is my understanding as well and seems to be backed by individuals who have first hand knowledge of the trust creation/submission process.

I was always under the impression that you updated the schedule A as you add property to the trust. Apparently, this is not the case; hence, an inventory of trust assets (a separate document) is kept with the rest of the trust documentation.

I think it all depends on how the wording of your trust is set up. Mine, I think I will have update the schedule A as all the property "placed in trust". I'm not really certain??

the trust document is simply an instrument to set up a legal entity and set forth how it is to operate within the limits of the law.

Take a corporation or LLC for example. You file your "papers" with the state to set up the corporation or LLC and from that point forward there is a legal entity which exists for a particular purpose. When the corporation or LLC buys property it is not placed into the original "Filing documents". The property is purchased in the name of the entity and your accountant places it into "inventory".....or simply stated: a list which exists to keep track of assets.

So when you die how does anyone know where the inventory list is or that one even exists?

how do they know where the trust is or even if there is one?

you have some responsibility to make your heirs aware of what's what.....as far as the inventory......maybe paper clip it to the trust.....for simplicity and all.....

Because the Form 4's (or Form 1's) will be in the trust's name.

and the originals should be with the original trust....or that's how i am doing it....

posted from Holiday Inn Express

I just had a Trust written up. My lawyer said that no one needs to see the Schedule A not even the Feds as its my personal property.

This makes since too me for NFA as well since I technically can't add the assets to the Trust until after the paperwork is approved by the BATF and I take ownership over the items. I just submitted my first Class 3 purchase so my Schedule A was included in the Trust paperwork but it is blank for all practical purposes Since I don't "own" anything yet.

Ugh, I believe in order for the trust to be valid, you must "fund" it. That may mean something as simple as a dollar bill, or an 870, but something has to be on the schedule A.

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