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M14 US Gov Tooling
1/21/2012 11:04:55 PM
Is the following true?
I've seen it said on the internetz that the US Gov sold the tooling for the M14 to Taiwan, and it subsequently made it's way to PRC...and this is responsible for the supposed better receivers of the PRC made clones.
First, please don't ask me to say where I saw this posted, just take my word that I've read as much to this effect and accept it for the purposes of argument.
Second, is this true? Or plausible even? I know that ROC hates PRC, so I find it kind of hard to believe that ROC would give PRC the capacity to build USGI, or close to, weapons.
Full disclosure, I have 2 Poly Techs and have had a M1A. I kept the polys (both of which are at warbirds awaiting TRW conversions). I traded the M1A and kept the polys. (after finding TRW bolts).
ETA: by "better" receivers, I mean better then the Springfield Armory M1A ones.
I've seen it said on the internetz that the US Gov sold the tooling for the M14 to Taiwan, and it subsequently made it's way to PRC...and this is responsible for the supposed better receivers of the PRC made clones.
First, please don't ask me to say where I saw this posted, just take my word that I've read as much to this effect and accept it for the purposes of argument.
Second, is this true? Or plausible even? I know that ROC hates PRC, so I find it kind of hard to believe that ROC would give PRC the capacity to build USGI, or close to, weapons.
Full disclosure, I have 2 Poly Techs and have had a M1A. I kept the polys (both of which are at warbirds awaiting TRW conversions). I traded the M1A and kept the polys. (after finding TRW bolts).
ETA: by "better" receivers, I mean better then the Springfield Armory M1A ones.
1/21/2012 11:35:49 PM
You had it right about the ROC and the PRC not liking each other. The ROC doesn't sell weapons tech to the PRC and vise versa.
What it is, is that the PRC has a long history of reverse engineering other peoples guns.
Some years ago there was a trade show in China just when they were first starting to open up.
Attendees were horrified to see PRC prototype copies of just about every military and commercial firearm made, including those that were still covered by international patents.
Truth is, the M14 is 1930's level technology and they have no trouble copying it.
What it is, is that the PRC has a long history of reverse engineering other peoples guns.
Some years ago there was a trade show in China just when they were first starting to open up.
Attendees were horrified to see PRC prototype copies of just about every military and commercial firearm made, including those that were still covered by international patents.
Truth is, the M14 is 1930's level technology and they have no trouble copying it.
1/22/2012 12:20:16 AM
Explain exactly, other then being cast, what is it that is so "wrong" about SA's receivers? I have three, 2 earlier 4 digits and a 48K one, so far, they haven't broken, melted, fallen apart, grenaded, ect. From what I gather, they are good for around 250,000 rounds or so. Quite honestly, I'll never shoot that much 7.62x51 in my lifetime.
1/22/2012 8:50:04 AM
If it matters, Winchester or Harrington Richardson were the manufactirers who sold or transferred the tooling to Taiwan.
1/22/2012 8:52:31 AM
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Explain exactly, other then being cast, what is it that is so "wrong" about SA's receivers? I have three, 2 earlier 4 digits and a 48K one, so far, they haven't broken, melted, fallen apart, grenaded, ect. From what I gather, they are good for around 250,000 rounds or so. Quite honestly, I'll never shoot that much 7.62x51 in my lifetime.
Explain exactly, other then being cast, what is it that is so "wrong" about SA's receivers? I have three, 2 earlier 4 digits and a 48K one, so far, they haven't broken, melted, fallen apart, grenaded, ect. From what I gather, they are good for around 250,000 rounds or so. Quite honestly, I'll never shoot that much 7.62x51 in my lifetime.
I have three rifles built on Springfield inc receivers and all three have had thousands of rounds fired through them with zero problems.
It isn't the receivers that cause problems with Spring inc. rifles, it is the low grade investment casting of other component parts that causes the problems.
1/22/2012 9:00:59 AM
Originally Posted By Milo5:
I have three rifles built on Springfield inc receivers and all three have had thousands of rounds fired through them with zero problems.
It isn't the receivers that cause problems with Spring inc. rifles, it is the low grade investment casting of other component parts that causes the problems.
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Explain exactly, other then being cast, what is it that is so "wrong" about SA's receivers? I have three, 2 earlier 4 digits and a 48K one, so far, they haven't broken, melted, fallen apart, grenaded, ect. From what I gather, they are good for around 250,000 rounds or so. Quite honestly, I'll never shoot that much 7.62x51 in my lifetime.
Explain exactly, other then being cast, what is it that is so "wrong" about SA's receivers? I have three, 2 earlier 4 digits and a 48K one, so far, they haven't broken, melted, fallen apart, grenaded, ect. From what I gather, they are good for around 250,000 rounds or so. Quite honestly, I'll never shoot that much 7.62x51 in my lifetime.
I have three rifles built on Springfield inc receivers and all three have had thousands of rounds fired through them with zero problems.
It isn't the receivers that cause problems with Spring inc. rifles, it is the low grade investment casting of other component parts that causes the problems.
Exactly, they do have some issues with some of the small bits, [extractors are one of them] at least there are still quality replacement parts out there. I hopefully have enough stashed away to last me a long time. The barrels [USGI] were the hardest to find at a reasonable price but one of the [gasp] gunshow dealers who has now sadly retired ended up selling his stash of them off for $100 apiece, got a Winchester and a SA, both in excellent shape. Garand parts can be used in the trigger assys so that makes life easier.
1/22/2012 9:31:26 AM
I had heard that these days with USGI surplus parts essentially non existent that the majority of small parts in SA inc M1A's are made in taiwan for them. not saying it is true but makes sense since nearly everything assembled /sold /marketed by SA inc. is imported anyway. I do wonder with the .mil moving to the m110 and away from the m14 as a designated marksman/supplemental sniper rifle if the CMP will eventually have complete m14 parts kits again? we can hope can't we!
1/22/2012 12:12:03 PM
Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Is the following true?
I've seen it said on the internetz that the US Gov sold the tooling for the M14 to Taiwan, and it subsequently made it's way to PRC...and this is responsible for the supposed better receivers of the PRC made clones.
Is the following true?
I've seen it said on the internetz that the US Gov sold the tooling for the M14 to Taiwan, and it subsequently made it's way to PRC...and this is responsible for the supposed better receivers of the PRC made clones.
This is not true. The mainland Chinese used its own equipment at State Arsenal 356 (Kunming, Yunnan) to make M14 rifles by 1965. The U. S. government sold the technical data package, inspection gages and SOME machine tools to the Taiwan government in 1968. By November 1968, the Taiwanese had accepted only nineteen of 150 machine tools offered by the U. S. government from the M14 project. State Arsenal 356 started making semi-automatic M14 receivers in 1987.
1/22/2012 1:12:24 PM
Originally Posted By Different:
This is not true. The mainland Chinese used its own equipment at State Arsenal 356 (Kunming, Yunnan) to make M14 rifles by 1965. The U. S. government sold the technical data package, inspection gages and SOME machine tools to the Taiwan government in 1968. By November 1968, the Taiwanese had accepted only nineteen of 150 machine tools offered by the U. S. government from the M14 project. State Arsenal 356 started making semi-automatic M14 receivers in 1987.
Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Is the following true?
I've seen it said on the internetz that the US Gov sold the tooling for the M14 to Taiwan, and it subsequently made it's way to PRC...and this is responsible for the supposed better receivers of the PRC made clones.
Is the following true?
I've seen it said on the internetz that the US Gov sold the tooling for the M14 to Taiwan, and it subsequently made it's way to PRC...and this is responsible for the supposed better receivers of the PRC made clones.
This is not true. The mainland Chinese used its own equipment at State Arsenal 356 (Kunming, Yunnan) to make M14 rifles by 1965. The U. S. government sold the technical data package, inspection gages and SOME machine tools to the Taiwan government in 1968. By November 1968, the Taiwanese had accepted only nineteen of 150 machine tools offered by the U. S. government from the M14 project. State Arsenal 356 started making semi-automatic M14 receivers in 1987.
I know we have disagreed on exactly when the Chinese started making M14 rifles but we can both agree they had no help from the Taiwanese or the Americans.
The Chinese are notorious for their ability to reverse engineer almost any item and produce it while completely ignoring any patent rights on the item.
1/22/2012 1:31:14 PM
Originally Posted By Milo5:
I know we have disagreed on exactly when the Chinese started making M14 rifles but we can both agree they had no help from the Taiwanese or the Americans.
The Chinese are notorious for their ability to reverse engineer almost any item and produce it while completely ignoring any patent rights on the item.
Originally Posted By Different:
This is not true. The mainland Chinese used its own equipment at State Arsenal 356 (Kunming, Yunnan) to make M14 rifles by 1965. The U. S. government sold the technical data package, inspection gages and SOME machine tools to the Taiwan government in 1968. By November 1968, the Taiwanese had accepted only nineteen of 150 machine tools offered by the U. S. government from the M14 project. State Arsenal 356 started making semi-automatic M14 receivers in 1987.
Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Is the following true?
I've seen it said on the internetz that the US Gov sold the tooling for the M14 to Taiwan, and it subsequently made it's way to PRC...and this is responsible for the supposed better receivers of the PRC made clones.
Is the following true?
I've seen it said on the internetz that the US Gov sold the tooling for the M14 to Taiwan, and it subsequently made it's way to PRC...and this is responsible for the supposed better receivers of the PRC made clones.
This is not true. The mainland Chinese used its own equipment at State Arsenal 356 (Kunming, Yunnan) to make M14 rifles by 1965. The U. S. government sold the technical data package, inspection gages and SOME machine tools to the Taiwan government in 1968. By November 1968, the Taiwanese had accepted only nineteen of 150 machine tools offered by the U. S. government from the M14 project. State Arsenal 356 started making semi-automatic M14 receivers in 1987.
I know we have disagreed on exactly when the Chinese started making M14 rifles but we can both agree they had no help from the Taiwanese or the Americans.
The Chinese are notorious for their ability to reverse engineer almost any item and produce it while completely ignoring any patent rights on the item.
The list is endless. The Nationalist Chinese government made several thousand Model 1921 Thompson submachine guns in 1927 at its Tai Yuan Soldier factory in Shansi Province. The Communist government produced M1 Carbines from 1949 to 1952.
1/22/2012 4:57:50 PM
Originally Posted By Different:
The list is endless. The Nationalist Chinese government made several thousand Model 1921 Thompson submachine guns in 1927 at its Tai Yuan Soldier factory in Shansi Province. The Communist government produced M1 Carbines from 1949 to 1952.
The list is endless. The Nationalist Chinese government made several thousand Model 1921 Thompson submachine guns in 1927 at its Tai Yuan Soldier factory in Shansi Province. The Communist government produced M1 Carbines from 1949 to 1952.
Is there any example in captivity or picturers? I would love to see one...
1/22/2012 5:23:44 PM
Originally Posted By spankybear:
Is there any example in captivity or picturers? I would love to see one...
Originally Posted By Different:
The list is endless. The Nationalist Chinese government made several thousand Model 1921 Thompson submachine guns in 1927 at its Tai Yuan Soldier factory in Shansi Province. The Communist government produced M1 Carbines from 1949 to 1952.
The list is endless. The Nationalist Chinese government made several thousand Model 1921 Thompson submachine guns in 1927 at its Tai Yuan Soldier factory in Shansi Province. The Communist government produced M1 Carbines from 1949 to 1952.
Is there any example in captivity or picturers? I would love to see one...
Contact Jim Mock. He is the go to researcher for M1 Carbines. His web site is www.m1carbinesinc.com.
1/23/2012 1:12:24 AM
Originally Posted By spankybear:
Is there any example in captivity or picturers? I would love to see one...
Originally Posted By Different:
The list is endless. The Nationalist Chinese government made several thousand Model 1921 Thompson submachine guns in 1927 at its Tai Yuan Soldier factory in Shansi Province. The Communist government produced M1 Carbines from 1949 to 1952.
The list is endless. The Nationalist Chinese government made several thousand Model 1921 Thompson submachine guns in 1927 at its Tai Yuan Soldier factory in Shansi Province. The Communist government produced M1 Carbines from 1949 to 1952.
Is there any example in captivity or picturers? I would love to see one...
I came across a Chinese copy of an M1 a couple of years ago housed in the Imperial War Museum in London. I highly suggest stopping by if you're within 1000 miles.... I'm ashamed to admit that I've visited this museum twice as much as I've visited the Smithsonian......
here's another favorite of mine
1/23/2012 10:07:42 AM
Inspection guages and some fixtures were in Wilkes-barre PA, then moved to SA inc, now maybe only Different knows.
