AR15.Com Archives
 North Cove Outfitters In Old Saybrook To Close After Nearly 24 Years
sbhaven  [Member]
2/21/2012 7:49:17 PM
Another local business closes it's doors...
North Cove Outfitters In Old Saybrook To Close After Nearly 24 Years
http://www.courant.com/business/hc-north-cove-closes-20120221,0,3722972.story
Sharpshooterz98  [Member]
2/21/2012 10:08:12 PM
wow, kind of sad especially since its one of the few I can think of along the shoreline. I've used the deer check station there a few times
cmw  [Member]
2/21/2012 10:10:46 PM

Bought one of my first adult guns there. Good people back then.

Too bad so many of the small to moderate sized shops can't seem to make it these days.
DanTSX  [Team Member]
2/22/2012 8:14:16 AM
I love that store.

Perfect location.

Great selection on QUALITY sporting goods that you cannot buy at Dicks or that goofy hippy store in WH center, and the best service in the state.

I bought my Marlin 39A there. They always had a lot of interesting guns come though there in their small, but well maintained firearms section.

Taboot  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 3:37:12 PM
I stopped by there today to say goodbye to Carl and the guys. I'm bummed about this one. I've bought a lot of camping gear, outdoors clothes and many of the guns I have from that store. They always had quality stuff and I never got anything but a square deal at the gun counter there.

It was sad to see the place nearly stripped bare.
Timmee  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 6:00:37 PM
I was there today as well, but all I bought were a couple of Coghlan's Squeeze Tubes. Not much else in my budget was interesting to me, and the firearms and shooting accessories weren't on clearance.
Kg3  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 9:16:45 PM
Not surprised I used to frequent the store a lot they got spoiled by the good economy a few years back and thought they could charge 30% more Than everyone.
Went to buy my first handgun there and was the only person in the gun dept and all three guys behind the counter couldn't be bothered to even say hello. I walked and went to hoffmans and received good service considering the volume of traffic. Bought five firearms since and every time I went to them first and couldn't get anyone to give me the time of day. My last attempt was just two months ago when I was looking for a gen4 glock 26 and the assclown that finally helped helped me said they didn't have any and they don't shoot good anyway. Then I said do you carry any 7.62 ARs ever and he said no we wouldn't do well with those we only sell real guns. I just laughed and walked out. North cove used to be a great store early on but somewhere along the way they decided to test the waters with grossly inflated prices and an arrogant staff .the writings been on the wall to all the longtime customers for a while. I overpaid for stuff there for years because i use to love those small independent shops but when you start being a dick to the locals because you think your the only game in town I'm glad to see you go down in flames good riddance . Note to north cove you didn't fail because of the warm weather you failed to provide any sort of friendly service to the locals who came to you first.
cavgunner  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 9:40:08 PM
Its Old Saybrook, yuppy and big house heaven. They catered to the neighborhood, but no one shops there from the hood except to buy Kayaks and over priced fleece and duck boots. They paved their own road to closure. I never bought any fishing tackle there, i always went to Rivers End down the street, where i got great service, advice on the fishing, and deals on the flies i liked to chuck at stripers. Too bad tho, I cant stand Dicks etc, I buy on line now, no sales tax etc.

LL Beans gets most of my technical gear money.
DanTSX  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 9:40:16 PM
Originally Posted By Kg3:
Not surprised I used to frequent the store a lot they got spoiled by the good economy a few years back and thought they could charge 30% more Than everyone.
Went to buy my first handgun there and was the only person in the gun dept and all three guys behind the counter couldn't be bothered to even say hello. I walked and went to hoffmans and received good service considering the volume of traffic. Bought five firearms since and every time I went to them first and couldn't get anyone to give me the time of day. My last attempt was just two months ago when I was looking for a gen4 glock 26 and the assclown that finally helped helped me said they didn't have any and they don't shoot good anyway. Then I said do you carry any 7.62 ARs ever and he said no we wouldn't do well with those we only sell real guns. I just laughed and walked out. North cove used to be a great store early on but somewhere along the way they decided to test the waters with grossly inflated prices and an arrogant staff .the writings been on the wall to all the longtime customers for a while. I overpaid for stuff there for years because i use to love those small independent shops but when you start being a dick to the locals because you think your the only game in town I'm glad to see you go down in flames good riddance . Note to north cove you didn't fail because of the warm weather you failed to provide any sort of friendly service to the locals who came to you first.


Interesting.

No doubt that they charged a premium I always felt that they were expensive but far from obscene, but they certainly had a selection and knowledge that simply could not be had anywheres else. I.e. full lines from Filson, Patagonia, and other brands that you cannot get elsewhere.

They were never a "black gun" store, but I always recall them having 1 or 2 mid-grade AR carbines around like a S&W M&P.

They did seem to favor the M&P over the Glock, but never saw them give two bad words to Glock considering they are also move a lot of kel-tec stuff their reference to junk wouldn't hold with me.

The guy that runs the counter is also on the board of the Hartford Gun Club. Very knowledgable and friendly in my experiences. Invited me to join etc, etc.

They seemed to really have a sweet spot selling post-war Colt and S&W revolvers and autos as well as higher end small bores from Winchester, Marlin, and Anschutz for fair prices. Of course they also had their high-end shotgun and rifle case that would cater to the polo/pony set.

I think you are right about the economy doing them in though. It is too easy to get the knowledge that you need online and there was very little need for most to consult their staff these days. I was planning on taking a kayaking course there in the spring, but I suppose I'll have to defer to somewhere else now.

I'll miss them. Spent a lot of time there the past few summers. The joy of walking down Main St. in monied Old Saybrook in the full swing of vacation season with my new Marlin 39A slung over my shoulder was a beautiful moment.

Besides, if you really want to get offended with service and prices, just head over to Ron's Guns on Rt. 1 in Flanders.
Kg3  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 9:55:14 PM
Ha I hear you Dan Ron doesn't sell guns it's a place for his buddies to hang out, Ron's much like the gun dept of north cove if they know you it's the greatest service you can find if they don't they don't give you the time of day. I know people just like me that laugh at north cove going under and just as many ( that always know the guys names behind the counter) that are shocked and saddened. They have quality guns for sure it's the arrogant remarks I didn't like , I know the difference between a quality firearm and an ar but they dont have to talk down to people that just ask a question. I don't save any money going to hoffmans For the guns I bought but north cove lost close to 5 k in gun sales last year because they couldn't say hello to a stranger.
DanTSX  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 10:05:23 PM
Originally Posted By Kg3:
Ha I hear you Dan Ron doesn't sell guns it's a place for his buddies to hang out, Ron's much like the gun dept of north cove if they know you it's the greatest service you can find if they don't they don't give you the time of day. I know people just like me that laugh at north cove going under and just as many ( that always know the guys names behind the counter) that are shocked and saddened. They have quality guns for sure it's the arrogant remarks I didn't like , I know the difference between a quality firearm and an ar but they dont have to talk down to people that just ask a question. I don't save any money going to hoffmans For the guns I bought but north cove lost close to 5 k in gun sales last year because they couldn't say hello to a stranger.


I agree man. I agree.

I can tell you know your stuff too.

It's a new age and some local shops ARE thriving because they can adapt to the consumer.

Has to be tough though. Especially in that area of the state that is typically more immune to a tough economy.
Timmee  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 10:20:06 PM
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By Kg3:
Not surprised I used to frequent the store a lot they got spoiled by the good economy a few years back and thought they could charge 30% more Than everyone.
Went to buy my first handgun there and was the only person in the gun dept and all three guys behind the counter couldn't be bothered to even say hello. I walked and went to hoffmans and received good service considering the volume of traffic. Bought five firearms since and every time I went to them first and couldn't get anyone to give me the time of day. My last attempt was just two months ago when I was looking for a gen4 glock 26 and the assclown that finally helped helped me said they didn't have any and they don't shoot good anyway. Then I said do you carry any 7.62 ARs ever and he said no we wouldn't do well with those we only sell real guns. I just laughed and walked out. North cove used to be a great store early on but somewhere along the way they decided to test the waters with grossly inflated prices and an arrogant staff .the writings been on the wall to all the longtime customers for a while. I overpaid for stuff there for years because i use to love those small independent shops but when you start being a dick to the locals because you think your the only game in town I'm glad to see you go down in flames good riddance . Note to north cove you didn't fail because of the warm weather you failed to provide any sort of friendly service to the locals who came to you first.


Interesting.

No doubt that they charged a premium I always felt that they were expensive but far from obscene, but they certainly had a selection and knowledge that simply could not be had anywheres else. I.e. full lines from Filson, Patagonia, and other brands that you cannot get elsewhere.

They were never a "black gun" store, but I always recall them having 1 or 2 mid-grade AR carbines around like a S&W M&P.

They did seem to favor the M&P over the Glock, but never saw them give two bad words to Glock considering they are also move a lot of kel-tec stuff their reference to junk wouldn't hold with me.

The guy that runs the counter is also on the board of the Hartford Gun Club. Very knowledgable and friendly in my experiences. Invited me to join etc, etc.

They seemed to really have a sweet spot selling post-war Colt and S&W revolvers and autos as well as higher end small bores from Winchester, Marlin, and Anschutz for fair prices. Of course they also had their high-end shotgun and rifle case that would cater to the polo/pony set.

I think you are right about the economy doing them in though. It is too easy to get the knowledge that you need online and there was very little need for most to consult their staff these days. I was planning on taking a kayaking course there in the spring, but I suppose I'll have to defer to somewhere else now.

I'll miss them. Spent a lot of time there the past few summers. The joy of walking down Main St. in monied Old Saybrook in the full swing of vacation season with my new Marlin 39A slung over my shoulder was a beautiful moment.

Besides, if you really want to get offended with service and prices, just head over to Ron's Guns on Rt. 1 in Flanders.


I went to Ron's today as well (after I left North Cove Outfitters), and I had trouble moving around the place. There were a total of 7 of us in there with those really narrow aisles, and the dozens of long boxes on that center table by the door didn't help. One of the guys there seemed pretty decent (approached me, asked me if I needed anything, and showed me a few rifles), but I'm probably not going to be making Ron's a frequent stop.
Kg3  [Team Member]
2/23/2012 11:08:50 PM
The days of the small shops are falling by the wayside it's a shame overall but as my brother- in law said its all about service now If I come to your store give me a. Reason to feel good about paying a little more and I will gladly do so every time. Based on the traffic I see at hoffmans pretty much all the time there's no reason for gun shops to be going under.
DanTSX  [Team Member]
2/24/2012 12:09:02 AM
Originally Posted By Kg3:
The days of the small shops are falling by the wayside it's a shame overall but as my brother- in law said its all about service now If I come to your store give me a. Reason to feel good about paying a little more and I will gladly do so every time. Based on the traffic I see at hoffmans pretty much all the time there's no reason for gun shops to be going under.


Yup.

Thats why unless I'm looking for C&R shit, I drive 40 miles 1 way to that little bitty shop in Southington.
Taboot  [Team Member]
2/24/2012 7:27:10 AM

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By Kg3:
Not surprised I used to frequent the store a lot they got spoiled by the good economy a few years back and thought they could charge 30% more Than everyone.
Went to buy my first handgun there and was the only person in the gun dept and all three guys behind the counter couldn't be bothered to even say hello. I walked and went to hoffmans and received good service considering the volume of traffic. Bought five firearms since and every time I went to them first and couldn't get anyone to give me the time of day. My last attempt was just two months ago when I was looking for a gen4 glock 26 and the assclown that finally helped helped me said they didn't have any and they don't shoot good anyway. Then I said do you carry any 7.62 ARs ever and he said no we wouldn't do well with those we only sell real guns. I just laughed and walked out. North cove used to be a great store early on but somewhere along the way they decided to test the waters with grossly inflated prices and an arrogant staff .the writings been on the wall to all the longtime customers for a while. I overpaid for stuff there for years because i use to love those small independent shops but when you start being a dick to the locals because you think your the only game in town I'm glad to see you go down in flames good riddance . Note to north cove you didn't fail because of the warm weather you failed to provide any sort of friendly service to the locals who came to you first.


Interesting.

No doubt that they charged a premium I always felt that they were expensive but far from obscene, but they certainly had a selection and knowledge that simply could not be had anywheres else. I.e. full lines from Filson, Patagonia, and other brands that you cannot get elsewhere.

They were never a "black gun" store, but I always recall them having 1 or 2 mid-grade AR carbines around like a S&W M&P.

They did seem to favor the M&P over the Glock, but never saw them give two bad words to Glock considering they are also move a lot of kel-tec stuff their reference to junk wouldn't hold with me.

The guy that runs the counter is also on the board of the Hartford Gun Club. Very knowledgable and friendly in my experiences. Invited me to join etc, etc.

They seemed to really have a sweet spot selling post-war Colt and S&W revolvers and autos as well as higher end small bores from Winchester, Marlin, and Anschutz for fair prices. Of course they also had their high-end shotgun and rifle case that would cater to the polo/pony set.

I think you are right about the economy doing them in though. It is too easy to get the knowledge that you need online and there was very little need for most to consult their staff these days. I was planning on taking a kayaking course there in the spring, but I suppose I'll have to defer to somewhere else now.

I'll miss them. Spent a lot of time there the past few summers. The joy of walking down Main St. in monied Old Saybrook in the full swing of vacation season with my new Marlin 39A slung over my shoulder was a beautiful moment.

Besides, if you really want to get offended with service and prices, just head over to Ron's Guns on Rt. 1 in Flanders.
He really is a grumpy old bastard.

Taboot  [Team Member]
2/24/2012 7:28:11 AM

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By Kg3:
The days of the small shops are falling by the wayside it's a shame overall but as my brother- in law said its all about service now If I come to your store give me a. Reason to feel good about paying a little more and I will gladly do so every time. Based on the traffic I see at hoffmans pretty much all the time there's no reason for gun shops to be going under.


Yup.

Thats why unless I'm looking for C&R shit, I drive 40 miles 1 way to that little bitty shop in Southington.

What shop is that?
j98c  [Member]
2/24/2012 8:37:30 AM
jojos
Taboot  [Team Member]
2/24/2012 10:02:35 AM

Originally Posted By j98c:
jojos

Thanks. I'll have to check it out sometime.
MntGoat  [Member]
2/25/2012 1:36:09 PM
This is really bad news, where am i going to buy fly's now?
zegermanznew  [Member]
2/25/2012 1:46:07 PM
Originally Posted By MntGoat:
This is really bad news, where am i going to buy fly's now?


Follow any of the main routes that parallel any of our main rivers. Dozens and dozens of mom and pop fly shops in CT.
MntGoat  [Member]
2/25/2012 2:15:48 PM
Originally Posted By zegermanznew:
Originally Posted By MntGoat:
This is really bad news, where am i going to buy fly's now?


Follow any of the main routes that parallel any of our main rivers. Dozens and dozens of mom and pop fly shops in CT.


no way. name any mom and pop fly shop between latimer brook and the salmon river. I don't know of any east of the Farmington.
zegermanznew  [Member]
2/25/2012 2:42:46 PM
Originally Posted By MntGoat:
Originally Posted By zegermanznew:
Originally Posted By MntGoat:
This is really bad news, where am i going to buy fly's now?


Follow any of the main routes that parallel any of our main rivers. Dozens and dozens of mom and pop fly shops in CT.


no way. name any mom and pop fly shop between latimer brook and the salmon river. I don't know of any east of the Farmington.


Im not well versed on the south end of the state as I live in the north, I mostly fish Central, North Central, and Northeast. (and mostly lake and pond as of late)

One of my favorite spots is a Trophy Trout area on the Farmington, a few miles south of Winsted. If you travel route 44 along the Farmington, you'll pass at least 6 shops between Avon and Winsted. I don't know their names, but small fly shops are not exactly rare. (Out this way at least.)

The only name that comes to mind is JT's, and thats practically in RI. The only reason I remember is I spent a lot of time out on Black Pond, the Mashapaug, and Mansfield Hollow this year. I must have passed it 50 times.


Heres a list of 21 in CT (20 because North Cove is one of them) Two of them are even in Old Saybrook. Granted not all of them are mom & pop shops, but at the same time not all the mom & pop shops are known well enough to make it to this particular list. (Note JT's is not on the list, but it does exist, I believe in Union CT.)




ETA: This apprears to be a pretty comprehensive list. Although, I don't think all of them are fly shops in particular, I think this is just fishing/bait stores in general.
nhsport  [Team Member]
2/25/2012 4:04:29 PM
Originally Posted By Taboot:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By Kg3:
Not surprised I used to frequent the store a lot they got spoiled by the good economy a few years back and thought they could charge 30% more Than everyone.
Went to buy my first handgun there and was the only person in the gun dept and all three guys behind the counter couldn't be bothered to even say hello. I walked and went to hoffmans and received good service considering the volume of traffic. Bought five firearms since and every time I went to them first and couldn't get anyone to give me the time of day. My last attempt was just two months ago when I was looking for a gen4 glock 26 and the assclown that finally helped helped me said they didn't have any and they don't shoot good anyway. Then I said do you carry any 7.62 ARs ever and he said no we wouldn't do well with those we only sell real guns. I just laughed and walked out. North cove used to be a great store early on but somewhere along the way they decided to test the waters with grossly inflated prices and an arrogant staff .the writings been on the wall to all the longtime customers for a while. I overpaid for stuff there for years because i use to love those small independent shops but when you start being a dick to the locals because you think your the only game in town I'm glad to see you go down in flames good riddance . Note to north cove you didn't fail because of the warm weather you failed to provide any sort of friendly service to the locals who came to you first.


Interesting.

No doubt that they charged a premium I always felt that they were expensive but far from obscene, but they certainly had a selection and knowledge that simply could not be had anywheres else. I.e. full lines from Filson, Patagonia, and other brands that you cannot get elsewhere.

They were never a "black gun" store, but I always recall them having 1 or 2 mid-grade AR carbines around like a S&W M&P.

They did seem to favor the M&P over the Glock, but never saw them give two bad words to Glock considering they are also move a lot of kel-tec stuff their reference to junk wouldn't hold with me.

The guy that runs the counter is also on the board of the Hartford Gun Club. Very knowledgable and friendly in my experiences. Invited me to join etc, etc.

They seemed to really have a sweet spot selling post-war Colt and S&W revolvers and autos as well as higher end small bores from Winchester, Marlin, and Anschutz for fair prices. Of course they also had their high-end shotgun and rifle case that would cater to the polo/pony set.

I think you are right about the economy doing them in though. It is too easy to get the knowledge that you need online and there was very little need for most to consult their staff these days. I was planning on taking a kayaking course there in the spring, but I suppose I'll have to defer to somewhere else now.

I'll miss them. Spent a lot of time there the past few summers. The joy of walking down Main St. in monied Old Saybrook in the full swing of vacation season with my new Marlin 39A slung over my shoulder was a beautiful moment.

Besides, if you really want to get offended with service and prices, just head over to Ron's Guns on Rt. 1 in Flanders.
He really is a grumpy old bastard.


You know , I see what you are saying about Ron's but I kind of like the place.
I have never bought anything there but have stopped a couple of times and he seems to know his stuff and has gone out of his way to fairly describe the history and condition of the stuff he has in there.
Yes you do have to work him a bit to get him to open up, maybe it is because myself and my friends are polite and are pretty gray and crusty ourselfs.
I do get the feeling that Ron and his buddies are just waiting for me to leave so they can get back to talking.

nhsport  [Team Member]
2/25/2012 4:10:58 PM
It is easy to sit back and come up with ideas on what went wrong with North Cove.We are of course all experts

My guess is that pretty much anything that was sold there was nothing but gear for folks hobbies and when the economy sucks your biusness
is going to go down the tubes.

I hear he didn't own the location which has got to be dificult when times are tight.

I spend some time in the area and would go in from time to time but then again I never spent much there.

Hope the guy gets some cash out of the closeing, perhaps he will open a small gun store somewhere?
DanTSX  [Team Member]
2/25/2012 5:09:26 PM
Originally Posted By nhsport:
It is easy to sit back and come up with ideas on what went wrong with North Cove.We are of course all experts

My guess is that pretty much anything that was sold there was nothing but gear for folks hobbies and when the economy sucks your biusness
is going to go down the tubes.

I hear he didn't own the location which has got to be dificult when times are tight.

I spend some time in the area and would go in from time to time but then again I never spent much there.

Hope the guy gets some cash out of the closeing, perhaps he will open a small gun store somewhere?



I actually am an expert in financing retail operations

Any of my comments would still be speculation, but "it's the economy stupid" sums it up nicely.

As far as owning versus leasing the storefront, that can be a drag or a blessing during a boom or a bust depending on the situation.
echo_5  [Member]
2/26/2012 4:09:52 PM

Originally Posted By nhsport:
Originally Posted By Taboot:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Besides, if you really want to get offended with service and prices, just head over to Ron's Guns on Rt. 1 in Flanders.
He really is a grumpy old bastard.


You know , I see what you are saying about Ron's but I kind of like the place.
I have never bought anything there but have stopped a couple of times and he seems to know his stuff and has gone out of his way to fairly describe the history and condition of the stuff he has in there.
Yes you do have to work him a bit to get him to open up, maybe it is because myself and my friends are polite and are pretty gray and crusty ourselfs.
I do get the feeling that Ron and his buddies are just waiting for me to leave so they can get back to talking.


I've bought guns from a lot of gun stores in Connecticut and the only place I've paid sticker price was Hoffman's.

- I'm just sayin'
Kg3  [Team Member]
2/26/2012 5:43:30 PM
Originally Posted By nhsport:
Originally Posted By Taboot:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By Kg3:
Not surprised I used to frequent the store a lot they got spoiled by the good economy a few years back and thought they could charge 30% more Than everyone.
Went to buy my first handgun there and was the only person in the gun dept and all three guys behind the counter couldn't be bothered to even say hello. I walked and went to hoffmans and received good service considering the volume of traffic. Bought five firearms since and every time I went to them first and couldn't get anyone to give me the time of day. My last attempt was just two months ago when I was looking for a gen4 glock 26 and the assclown that finally helped helped me said they didn't have any and they don't shoot good anyway. Then I said do you carry any 7.62 ARs ever and he said no we wouldn't do well with those we only sell real guns. I just laughed and walked out. North cove used to be a great store early on but somewhere along the way they decided to test the waters with grossly inflated prices and an arrogant staff .the writings been on the wall to all the longtime customers for a while. I overpaid for stuff there for years because i use to love those small independent shops but when you start being a dick to the locals because you think your the only game in town I'm glad to see you go down in flames good riddance . Note to north cove you didn't fail because of the warm weather you failed to provide any sort of friendly service to the locals who came to you first.


Interesting.

No doubt that they charged a premium I always felt that they were expensive but far from obscene, but they certainly had a selection and knowledge that simply could not be had anywheres else. I.e. full lines from Filson, Patagonia, and other brands that you cannot get elsewhere.

They were never a "black gun" store, but I always recall them having 1 or 2 mid-grade AR carbines around like a S&W M&P.

They did seem to favor the M&P over the Glock, but never saw them give two bad words to Glock considering they are also move a lot of kel-tec stuff their reference to junk wouldn't hold with me.

The guy that runs the counter is also on the board of the Hartford Gun Club. Very knowledgable and friendly in my experiences. Invited me to join etc, etc.

They seemed to really have a sweet spot selling post-war Colt and S&W revolvers and autos as well as higher end small bores from Winchester, Marlin, and Anschutz for fair prices. Of course they also had their high-end shotgun and rifle case that would cater to the polo/pony set.

I think you are right about the economy doing them in though. It is too easy to get the knowledge that you need online and there was very little need for most to consult their staff these days. I was planning on taking a kayaking course there in the spring, but I suppose I'll have to defer to somewhere else now.

I'll miss them. Spent a lot of time there the past few summers. The joy of walking down Main St. in monied Old Saybrook in the full swing of vacation season with my new Marlin 39A slung over my shoulder was a beautiful moment.

Besides, if you really want to get offended with service and prices, just head over to Ron's Guns on Rt. 1 in Flanders.
He really is a grumpy old bastard.


You know , I see what you are saying about Ron's but I kind of like the place.
I have never bought anything there but have stopped a couple of times and he seems to know his stuff and has gone out of his way to fairly describe the history and condition of the stuff he has in there.
Yes you do have to work him a bit to get him to open up, maybe it is because myself and my friends are polite and are pretty gray and crusty ourselfs.
I do get the feeling that Ron and his buddies are just waiting for me to leave so they can get back to talking.



Ron's a good guy he's just doesn't give a crap anymore, well all get there someday. I just Cruz through once a year because it reminds me of being a kid again. Been going there since he first opened down the street if you know we're that is you might as well be a local.