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Plumbing help - pipe leak from foundation - crosspost
12/26/2011 2:15:11 PM
Ok guys, here's the situation. Went out in the garage this AM and saw some puddles of water by the water heater. Started checking it out, and found a copper pipe behind the wall coming from the slab foundation. It had a blue sheathing around it that went into the concrete. There is water coming up from within the sheathing. I pulled the sheathing away from the pipe (maybe a bad move) to see better and the water was coming from within the concrete. Pics are attached.
What am I dealling with?? Scared to know what's going on...
What am I dealling with?? Scared to know what's going on...
12/26/2011 2:41:34 PM
Get a jack hammer and start hammering. 
12/26/2011 8:49:48 PM
yep
12/26/2011 11:40:31 PM
I would not do anything drastic (like using a jackhammer) that might damage your foundation, at least before knowing a lot more information. If there is a significant amount of water, use some grout and sheet metal or something similar to make a raised channel to direct the water to a bucket or spot of the floor where you can shop vac it up periodically.
The question I have based on your photo is what is that pipe? Was that how you found it, a cut off pipe behind the wall? That would mean that it was abandoned for its original purpose, which I would guess, being copper, was either a natural gas line from your natural gas meter, or, more likely, a water supply line from your municipal water main. Either way, if it was cut off like in the picture, it was abandoned and not sealed up properly, leaving an opening through the foundation. I would research procedures and products used to seal holes in your foundation. Having an object embedded in it will no doubt make it more difficult to patch. Perhaps then you will need a jackhammer (Harbor Freight Tools sells a cheap rotary hammer that might work in this application). But I would not do that without a lot of research and possibly a visit from a foundation repair guy to make sure you know what you are dealing with and exactly how you are going to repair it.
The question I have based on your photo is what is that pipe? Was that how you found it, a cut off pipe behind the wall? That would mean that it was abandoned for its original purpose, which I would guess, being copper, was either a natural gas line from your natural gas meter, or, more likely, a water supply line from your municipal water main. Either way, if it was cut off like in the picture, it was abandoned and not sealed up properly, leaving an opening through the foundation. I would research procedures and products used to seal holes in your foundation. Having an object embedded in it will no doubt make it more difficult to patch. Perhaps then you will need a jackhammer (Harbor Freight Tools sells a cheap rotary hammer that might work in this application). But I would not do that without a lot of research and possibly a visit from a foundation repair guy to make sure you know what you are dealing with and exactly how you are going to repair it.
12/27/2011 12:41:05 AM
don't think the pipe is cut. the drywall is torn making the pipe look cut.
12/27/2011 11:01:05 AM
I would call a plumber
12/27/2011 2:23:06 PM
Originally Posted By popsmrf:
don't think the pipe is cut. the drywall is torn making the pipe look cut.
don't think the pipe is cut. the drywall is torn making the pipe look cut.
I can't really tell looking at it. The pipe also looks cracked open to me where it comes out of the concrete. If it is an intact pipe, it is probably a water supply pipe that runs underground from somewhere outside the house (city water or well?). Looking on the internet, it appears that copper pipes that run underground are coated like the one you have. I'm not sure if natural gas pipes are the same. The sheathing probably is cracked or deteriorated outside the house next to the foundation, letting groundwater flow in between the sheathing and the copper. Of course, another option would be that the copper water supply pipe is damaged and leaking water, some of which if running up along the sheathing and inside. If you are on city water, shut off the water supply inside the house at the master valve (or at all the faucets, showers, etc.), then check your water meter to see if it is still running. If so, get plumber on it quick. You are financially responsible for any leaks after the meter. Also, the water would not be sanitary.
12/27/2011 2:34:26 PM
Originally Posted By ElmerFudd:
I can't really tell looking at it. The pipe also looks cracked open to me where it comes out of the concrete. If it is an intact pipe, it is probably a water supply pipe that runs underground from somewhere outside the house (city water or well?). Looking on the internet, it appears that copper pipes that run underground are coated like the one you have. I'm not sure if natural gas pipes are the same. The sheathing probably is cracked or deteriorated outside the house next to the foundation, letting groundwater flow in between the sheathing and the copper. Of course, another option would be that the copper water supply pipe is damaged and leaking water, some of which if running up along the sheathing and inside. If you are on city water, shut off the water supply inside the house at the master valve (or at all the faucets, showers, etc.), then check your water meter to see if it is still running. If so, get plumber on it quick. You are financially responsible for any leaks after the meter. Also, the water would not be sanitary.
Originally Posted By popsmrf:
don't think the pipe is cut. the drywall is torn making the pipe look cut.
don't think the pipe is cut. the drywall is torn making the pipe look cut.
I can't really tell looking at it. The pipe also looks cracked open to me where it comes out of the concrete. If it is an intact pipe, it is probably a water supply pipe that runs underground from somewhere outside the house (city water or well?). Looking on the internet, it appears that copper pipes that run underground are coated like the one you have. I'm not sure if natural gas pipes are the same. The sheathing probably is cracked or deteriorated outside the house next to the foundation, letting groundwater flow in between the sheathing and the copper. Of course, another option would be that the copper water supply pipe is damaged and leaking water, some of which if running up along the sheathing and inside. If you are on city water, shut off the water supply inside the house at the master valve (or at all the faucets, showers, etc.), then check your water meter to see if it is still running. If so, get plumber on it quick. You are financially responsible for any leaks after the meter. Also, the water would not be sanitary.
This. it does look like a supply line.
12/27/2011 2:41:18 PM
Cold water supply line. Feeds half bath toilet (right on other side of wall) and sink and water heater. Prob feeds more, but that's all I can tell for now. I'm not doing a thing til the plumber gets here, but I've managed to channel the water away for now out of the garage.
Just sucks...
ETA: I know it looks cracked on the pic, but that's actually just the water coming up. Thanks for the input guys...
Just sucks...
ETA: I know it looks cracked on the pic, but that's actually just the water coming up. Thanks for the input guys...
12/27/2011 4:02:46 PM
no advice but good luck, hope it's nothing major
12/27/2011 6:46:55 PM
Originally Posted By jjoinson:
no advice but good luck, hope it's nothing major
no advice but good luck, hope it's nothing major
This.....
12/27/2011 7:45:52 PM
The cold water copper pipe is run in the dirt before the slab is poured, or is supposed to be. The sheathing around the pipe is to protect the copper pipe from the concrete. The vibrations from water hammer over time can eventually cause the concrete to wear a hole into the copper. The pipe under the house should all be one piece of soft roll copper. There should be no joints under the house. If all this is done the way it should have been done, then very likely the hole in the pipe is near that stub up and not too terribly deep in the slab. But sometimes that is a big if.
12/29/2011 4:43:15 PM
So after talking to plumbers and insurance, they both agreed that they would rather reroute the supply line from the Pressure Regulator, around the house, and back into my garage. Both parties agreed it was a gamble when you start hammering away at the slab and didn't want to deal with destroying the inside of the house. So all new PEX from the PVR to the garage for me! w00t!
12/29/2011 8:25:00 PM
Good deal. Being a DIY kind of guy, that's probably what I would have done. By pressure regulator, do you mean water meter? The pressure regulator is usually inside the house, near where the water supply line comes in the house. It reduces the water pressure coming from the main so that household fixtures like toilet valves aren't damaged by the higher mains pressure. Or do you mean that there is a branch line from after your pressure regulator that goes back outside the house underground to the garage?
What are they going to do about the damaged supply line? Dig it out of the slab and seal the hole?
What are they going to do about the damaged supply line? Dig it out of the slab and seal the hole?
12/29/2011 11:54:47 PM
At my house, there is the water meter at the street, then it goes about 15-20 feet to the front of my house where there's a water cutoff valve and the pressure regulator. From that point, after the PRV, the copper pipe goes under my house and as far as I can tell, straight back to the garage where it pops up through the slab to feed the house fixtures.
The plumber's activities today went 10 feet from the meter and cut into it with the PEX, then ran it along the edge of my house to the back yard and then to the garage.At that point, he popped up above the concrete patio, and went into the siding of the house and into the garage. Here's a pic of the half way through job:
Once inside the garage, he is putting a ball valve cutoff and a new PRV. So now, everything will be more accessible to cut off and/or replace if/when parts break. I'm not thrilled about the visibility of it all, but he assured me it'll be "buttoned up" and look good once he's done tomorrow.
They are just going to leave the supply line cutoff and capped as far as I know. Should I ask them to do something else?
The plumber's activities today went 10 feet from the meter and cut into it with the PEX, then ran it along the edge of my house to the back yard and then to the garage.At that point, he popped up above the concrete patio, and went into the siding of the house and into the garage. Here's a pic of the half way through job:
Once inside the garage, he is putting a ball valve cutoff and a new PRV. So now, everything will be more accessible to cut off and/or replace if/when parts break. I'm not thrilled about the visibility of it all, but he assured me it'll be "buttoned up" and look good once he's done tomorrow.
They are just going to leave the supply line cutoff and capped as far as I know. Should I ask them to do something else?
12/30/2011 3:20:23 AM
Originally Posted By libertyguns9:
They are just going to leave the supply line cutoff and capped as far as I know. Should I ask them to do something else?
They are just going to leave the supply line cutoff and capped as far as I know. Should I ask them to do something else?
I would go with that, as the cheapest alternative with what you know now. I am assuming the water flow was due to a break in the water supply line, and not infiltration of groundwater? I would keep an eye on the old line periodically to make sure there is no open path along the old line so that groundwater could work its way in.
The concern I would have with any aboveground line outside the house is with freezing. Presumably he knows what he is doing ...
12/30/2011 10:00:11 AM
I'd make sure he covers up the pex on the outside of the house because pex breaks down when exposed to uv light.
12/30/2011 9:37:53 PM
quote"They are just going to leave the supply line cutoff and capped as far as I know. Should I ask them to do something else?"
Just my 2 cents that would be an unacceptable repair for me . There is nothing like having copper pipe run for supply line in your house !
Over here we would get a plumbing co to use a hydrotunneling equipment and tunnel under slab and relpace the copper supply line .
the plumber may have to chip open the slab slightly to put the line back through the slab but it is no big deal if the people doing the job know what they are doing .
Please take no offense to my comments but looking at the picture it looks like bubba's plumbing is doing the job .
Some areas using the pipe and methods in pic are widley accepted . I just couldn't bring my self to do that kind of repair on my house .
In most cases your insurance company would pay for the repair to be done properly and put it back to the way it was in the begining .
Make sure that the line is well insulated to prevent freezing .
GOOD LUCK on your repair I hope it all works out for the best .
Just my 2 cents that would be an unacceptable repair for me . There is nothing like having copper pipe run for supply line in your house !
Over here we would get a plumbing co to use a hydrotunneling equipment and tunnel under slab and relpace the copper supply line .
the plumber may have to chip open the slab slightly to put the line back through the slab but it is no big deal if the people doing the job know what they are doing .
Please take no offense to my comments but looking at the picture it looks like bubba's plumbing is doing the job .
Some areas using the pipe and methods in pic are widley accepted . I just couldn't bring my self to do that kind of repair on my house .
In most cases your insurance company would pay for the repair to be done properly and put it back to the way it was in the begining .
Make sure that the line is well insulated to prevent freezing .
GOOD LUCK on your repair I hope it all works out for the best .
12/30/2011 11:00:21 PM
Yeah, I get what you're saying SMITTY. That outside exposed line definitely reeks of bubba style plumbing. I'm giving them a chance to make it right and waiting til completion to judge it. The insurance company was the one that confirmed plumbers decision to reroute supply line, rather than do all the work of replacing pipe in slab. Makes sense I guess since that's the cheaper solution.
Personally, my undeducated opinion, I like not having the supply line in the slab. Makes everything "easy" to get to and repair if problems arise, plus doesn't cause near the damage since the leaks would be in my yard, not my house. Again, I could be wrong, but this is what makes sense to me. Also, PEX isn't susceptible to freezing. I mean, it is to a degree, but since this is all underground and the exposed pieces are insulated, I think I'll be ok. It's Alabama after all.
Plus, I've heard from numerous folks if it freezes, it won't crack or break. But figuring this is the main supply line, I figure there will always be a little water traveling through the line to keep it from freezing.
I'll keep y'all updated and post some after completion pics.
Personally, my undeducated opinion, I like not having the supply line in the slab. Makes everything "easy" to get to and repair if problems arise, plus doesn't cause near the damage since the leaks would be in my yard, not my house. Again, I could be wrong, but this is what makes sense to me. Also, PEX isn't susceptible to freezing. I mean, it is to a degree, but since this is all underground and the exposed pieces are insulated, I think I'll be ok. It's Alabama after all.
Plus, I've heard from numerous folks if it freezes, it won't crack or break. But figuring this is the main supply line, I figure there will always be a little water traveling through the line to keep it from freezing.
I'll keep y'all updated and post some after completion pics.
